PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

mstdv inc said:
As I observe from the reviews of beginners, most often they refuse to play because of problems with the frame rate on the actual hardware
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Well I bet most of them try the highest settings cause Graphic>>>>>>>>>>gameplay

Just play on lower settings and it works great. I don't have a good PC (not even an SSD) but I can play this game without a problem just with lower settings. and it doesn't look bad without ultra mega super duper 4k. Why are people such graphic sl*ts :o

 
meilodasreh said:
As it is not exactly mentioned in the first post,

I would like to ask how the "new door tech" is coming along (madmole showed that hilarious teaser vid a while ago where the door blasted into pieces and poor arlene bellyflopping down the stairs 😆)

As I understood he was just experimenting around at that point.

So how far did that make progress?

Will that eventually make it into A20?

Or was it dropped/given up because of whatever reasons?
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One word: Ziplines!  :heh:

On a side note... that grumpy owl picture makes me crack every time I see it lol

 
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While the success of Valheim provides some valuable lessons, just copying what it did would be a mistake. Games have success because (a) they get the crucial word of mouth and (b) because they find a niche that isn't filled at the moment.

The first can't be copied. It is a function of luck and in some cases the right decision to hire the right streamers on the right platform(s) and generally the feel of the first 2 hours of gameplay. With none of the current hypes there is any guarantee that they will have long-term success. Lots of people already stopped playing Valheim and lots of people only bought it because EVERYONE was playing it. I know, I bought it exactly because I wanted to know why it got all that buzz.

Now it doesn't matter for Valheim anymore, they got enough sales to last them a few years whatever happens. But such a hype can't easily be replicated and in the case of 7D2D being on the market for 8 years makes it twice as difficult to generate a sudden hype. Not impossible, but very very hard.

The latter (occupying the niche) can not be copied directly as well. Because now that niche is filled by Valheim, simple as that. There is space for multiple games in any niche, but it is a clear case of diminishing returns the more games try to go there.

But I concur with Guppycur on the general principle that difficult, complex or grindy games can have a lot of success, they just need to find a place where a demand exists that is not met by other games. And that is the problem when you try to cater for the mainstream players. There lots of bigger shinier AAA and "easy listening" games fill that demand and a game by a small developer would need to compete with all the AAA companies on THEIR home turf.

That is why 7D2D may still need ways to make the first 2 hours fun for any beginner, but after that needs the complexity and depth to keep its core audience for the long-term success.

 
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And we are practically on rails these days... Do this, in this order, or die.  Sandbox play is broken... I guess you technically could, but it's no longer fun.  Not enough to do.  And there used to be.  The devs (well, Joel) have said time and again "we want you to do xyz".  And it shows.  

 
Guppycur said:
And we are practically on rails these days... Do this, in this order, or die.  Sandbox play is broken... I guess you technically could, but it's no longer fun.  Not enough to do.  And there used to be.  The devs (well, Joel) have said time and again "we want you to do xyz".  And it shows.  
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I partially disagree with your analysis. TFP, and especially Joel, have always tried to keep the game on track with THEIR vision, that's all.

I don't see 7D2D forcing anyone doing the same exact things to survive or win: there's plenty of ways you can play and thrive (excluding nightmare/insane modes).

The part that I agree with is that TFP have never wanted this game to be one where you can ignore the horde or thrive just by comfortably sitting in your base building stuff, so they added game mechanics to discourage that.

 
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I wrote up a post on valheim vs 7d2d and chose not to post it, but the gist of it was to (as a 7d2d player who tried valheim) see what 7d2d could improve to make the game more fun/neat. 
 

the short answer: not much.  

Sure there’s a lot of little things that valheim does well (like making chopping down trees fun again) but trying to translate that to something 7d2d could actually (practically? From a non developer perspective) improve upon was not easy. For the tree chopping example, all I could come up with was “7d2d should probably take a branch or two off of the trees and use the triangles to put a bottom/roots on the trees , or leave stumps like valheim does, and make chopping down stumps kinda worthless (like valheim does) so the landscape looks not so flat when you’re done. 
 

another example: valheim has “lush looking landscape”. The only possible 7d2d improvement I could come up with was maybe make the grass blocks “scaleable” via mods (so no new blocks) So all the grass isn’t the same  height. If you cannot scale it, then add a few taller grass blocks. Maybe add some trees that could spawn “in a fallen state”, at least in the deeper forest.

lots of little Stuff, nothing big.

I think the love for valheim (other than being new) is that it’s like 7d2d but the graphics are very nostalgic/fun, and it’s fun to build in.  Another item is that in valheim, time doesn’t matter. You can take as much time as you want to do whatever, or just hang out and build. In 7d2d, time matters, you can’t easily just do nothing all the time.  I think people who love valheim like the grind, or at least “I can pace myself and just enjoy doing my thing”. Of course, you can simply turn off zeds/blood moons in 7d, so it’s kinda a wash.  
 

also: one is about Vikings and has really hypnotic music. The other is not about Vikings, and having a music track would be wrong. I personally like the “comes and goes” music in 7d, though I wish it didn’t tell me before I was aware that I was in danger, only triggered after I was being attacked. 
 

also: valheims “water” is awesome, and using the boat(s) are their ways of handling grinding/atmosphere. It’s like they wanted you to have to sit on a boat for a long time to bask in peacefulness/danger. But even then, I see all sorts of posts for “why can’t we teleport ores! Sigh! It’s so annoying!” So it’s “good gaming mechanics to make it unique” are just like 7d2d as well , as some players just want to become gods immediately and win the game as fast as possible, choosing to not “become absorbed in the game” and just “get it over with”.   I hope both games do not cater to these people, at least in their vanilla version.

 
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It makes one wonder how that image still is instantly recognizable after all these... ahem... weeks.

Maybe everything in gaming since then were steps in the wrong direction in the first place 🤔

Then again, the not-quite-so-pixelated Joel model does look really impressive,

 
Guppycur said:
And we are practically on rails these days... Do this, in this order, or die.  Sandbox play is broken... I guess you technically could, but it's no longer fun.  Not enough to do.  And there used to be.  The devs (well, Joel) have said time and again "we want you to do xyz".  And it shows.  
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Say what...? What rail? What do you mean there is less to do than there used to be? I don't agree with this at all. I guess I would agree that we briefly had caves and they were a fun thing that we don't have any longer but we also didn't have caves before we did until we didn't again. What else was there that we could that we can't now? I don't feel anyone dictating how I play or how I build. POI's are exponentially more interesting than they used to be. I guess there are "rails" there IF you follow the path-- which I don't. But even with the lighted path, the POIs are more interesting than the empty cardboard boxes we used to have.

I understand and have the same frustration about some of the simplifications but that doesn't put the game on rails or mean there is less to do. Wait...are you talking about LBD? I really don't like the LBD in Valheim. It kills replay value for me. I will never restart a new game with a new character the way that game is set up. Valheim will be a one-time playthrough for me...

 
Guppycur said:
Not enough to do.  And there used to be
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I do agree with this, as I really like having “too much to think about” when playing, meaning: so I go get water now, or craft xyz? I’m going to need xyz for something things, but I also need to mine abc for coal....  I like having a ton of stuff to have to manage and find and sell/hoard. Just like I like a lot of crafting stations in order to need to build more rooms/area for a base to handle them.  But that’s just my fun way, I know.

I kinda wish there were a few more tiers of stuff above what we have today, that were not lootable, and could only be attained after clearing some hurdle/gate in the game. Not just “more powerful gun” but like special traps, or even blocks, recipes, etc. to craft special/niche items. 
 

ive never really played sandbox mode in any game besides Factorio, as ... there was so much to try to figure out I actually needed to use it to plan stuff out!  Of course, some would argue “but that’s the fun of factorio! Time and resource management under threat of enemy hordes coming at your factory!  Don’t use sandbox mode to prebuild blueprints and just and import them”(this would be like making an awesome base in the prefab editor and placing it down on day 1.... which kinda ruins the beginning of the game, IMHO). yeah, there’s so much to do that keeps the fun going after the game has been “won” that I do go back and play factorio quite a bit.  I really hope 7d2d is like that when it goes gold: lots of stuff to do so you can play it many times over in different ways/goals and still enjoy it. I think it is/has/will but having “less” (blocks/items/etc) in vanilla than we have today seems hard to imagine right now.  I also personally want “more” unique vanilla stuff than we have today. Maybe the TFP goal is to have a lot of simple “mechanics” worked out, just enough content for a normal game, and then hope modders will fill in a lot of unique content.  If this is true, I really wish that things like icons/models would be sent to the clients, and several other things were done to beef up modding capabilities. I’ve heard steam workshop might fix these issues a bit.

 
doughphunghus said:
I do agree with this, as I really like having “too much to think about” when playing, meaning: so I go get water now, or craft xyz? I’m going to need xyz for something things, but I also need to mine abc for coal....
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I see what you're saying and maybe this is what Guppy was talking about as well. I agree that Valheim really starts stacking up the tasks you need to do in order to reach whatever your next objective is and there is a lot of "I want to do A but that means I will first need to do B which requires I do C" type of thinking. Personally, I do that same type of thinking about 7 Days to Die as well-- although I am much more familiar with 7 Days to Die. Valheim required a lot of figuring out how to do C so I could get B which would let me do A and that exploration space is fun the first time you experience it for any game.  but then--you've learned the process and it becomes just a process to play through. 

The thing about Valheim, though, is that working through your list of tasks is pretty casual. I never feel that time matters. As novel as the tree chopping was at first, I hate chopping trees because it is click by click on the mouse. and now the novelty has worn off and really all I want to get is fine wood. Same thing when I need to go hunting for hides. When I know I need like 30 and so all my playtime is going to be running around shooting animals, it makes me not feel like signing on. Am I excited to reach the next boss and get to the next biome? yes. But the tasks I must do to prepare have become mundane and require a lot of time and effort- so.....I find myself playing less often now.

Of course, that's just me. Plenty of people are continuing to have lots of fun with Valheim. Nothing Valheim does right, btw, will change 7 Days to Die. The dye is cast for this game. But perhaps they will be inspired for the next game.

I LOVE the spatially relevent upgrades to workstations. I love the variety of workstations. I also wish 7 Days had more workstations and higher tiers of existing workstations. I also love the boss progression and the biome progression. It is a great way to pace the game and open new items and resources. Biome progression is coming to 7 Days but I doubt it will be quite as pronounced as Valheim. I don't think people will get absolutely rekt by going into say the desert in 7 Days before they are ready like you do in Valheim if you wander into or even sail too closely to a biome you aren't ready for yet...lol

 
One thing I discovered with Valheim is that if you just play, not min max, the progression just sort of works, without even really trying.  I like that.  There is a um... Special person... on the server that has crates and crates of stuff... That works for him.  I like that.  I chose to work with others, this person was more solo, but both worked.  He was a little faster on boss beating than we were but it wasn't that far off.  Both play styles worked.  I had fun, and presumably he had fun, that's what counted...   I don't have that experience with 7 days.  7 days forces you to a pace. 

With 7days I don't get that sandbox feeling.  I *have* to play by their rules, and the progression is always the same.  There are some deviations between skill trees but ultimately it comes down to making lots of bullets and shooting lots of things.  

Anyway, I didn't really intend to do a side by side comparison (although 7days of old did have those trees).

 
Guppycur said:
One thing I discovered with Valheim is that if you just play, not min max, the progression just sort of works, without even really trying.  I like that.  There is a um... Special person... on the server that has crates and crates of stuff... That works for him.  I like that.  I chose to work with others, this person was more solo, but both worked.  He was a little faster on boss beating than we were but it wasn't that far off.  Both play styles worked.  I had fun, and presumably he had fun, that's what counted...   I don't have that experience with 7 days.  7 days forces you to a pace. 

With 7days I don't get that sandbox feeling.  I *have* to play by their rules, and the progression is always the same.  There are some deviations between skill trees but ultimately it comes down to making lots of bullets and shooting lots of things.  

Anyway, I didn't really intend to do a side by side comparison (although 7days of old did have those trees).
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I do not really know a lot about Valheim.  It looks fun, but I probably will not try it for a while. 

One cool thing about 7days is that you do not have to even bother building a base after a while.  You can just fight the horde at night, without a base, even on the hardest settings, even horde every night. 

You can basically just loot or do whatever you want all day and just fight the horde at night.  I am starting to do that in my current world, but I still like starting off inside my base for fun, and faster exp. 

Oh, and I fight them with melee so I do not make or use bullets. 

 
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