PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[bdubyah]

Hey madmole , grads for the most serious game out there .

I always had this in my back of my mind to see zombies overcome the defenses of my base , it seems that you can build really durable stuff in comparison to zombies powers (and even repair them on the fly with just 1 move with the claw hammer ) , is there a possibility to have a siege/tank zombie that spawns not that often but it will specialize in destroying structures or something similar ?

You never encountered a Demolisher?

 

[Diragor]

Hey madmole , grads for the most serious game out there .

I always had this in my back of my mind to see zombies overcome the defenses of my base , it seems that you can build really durable stuff in comparison to zombies powers (and even repair them on the fly with just 1 move with the claw hammer ) , is there a possibility to have a siege/tank zombie that spawns not that often but it will specialize in destroying structures or something similar ?

Sounds like the Demolisher

I wish for a damn fast zombie with low health but great block dmg. That would feel terrifying. imagine a special zombie with really long arms like and he's running on all four.

 

[Mard-E-Momin]

Would be funny if there was an Urdu/Hindi translation of this game, i'd probably do it for free since it'd be hilarious! 

Things like "Pistol" would be "Banduuk" and stuff like "Day XX" would become "Din XX" 

 

[meganoth]

Based on what i've seen and the popularity on servers for disabling falling blocks to prevent lag and chunk corruption. I had really hoped SI was up there on the optimisation hit list. I was really concerned when they mention on one of the dev streams that they wanted to do some "Demolition" quests where you destroy/collapse a poi. Here is a video on A19 Nav of a small remnant structure collapse. You can see the framerate went from 115-130 FPS before it started, then the frames where removed and it nose dives down to 45-50 FPS. That 1 feature killed nearly 90% of the starting performance and that's the smallest tier of quest poi's. Anyone what had the idea to collapse a skyscraper knows it's not a fun experience. Performance aside large collapses glitch out and you end up with floating blocks all happening at a less than cinematic framerate.

It looks like the CPU load doesn't increase at all even though it isn't at 100%.

I don't think it is SI calculations but the updates to the world data that is slowing down your PC

It even affects combat, here is a video of what happens to performance when you shoot a block. This was in A17 but it is still an issue in A19, The number of people i've seen asking if it's possible to remove weapon block damage so they can use automatic weapons without the game turning into a 3 legged asthmatic hippo. You can see performance it cut in half when you damage a block. It does it anytime a block is damaged and si updates, this includes zombies so imagine 4 players with m60's and 16 zombies all whacking away during a hoard which is not an unreasonable situation.

That is another indication that it has nothing to do with SI. When you shoot at a block and do not destroy it there is no necessity to make new SI calculations. So the drop could come from world data updates (possibly to a distant server?) or the impact graphics.

I think rather than moving the load to the gpu maybe it's a better idea to not run that feature on a single core. 7DTD only scales in multicore performance up to 4 threads. This would be great in 2010, but these days 4 thread cpus are difficult to find new. Most modern cpus now are 6-8 cores and 12-16 threads. There is plenty of cpu gas in the tank these days but only if applications are made to take advantage of them. Core count and GPU performance has increases exponentially since 2013 but single thread performance hasn't changed that much.

Anyway that's my thought on SI thanks for reading and i hope you'll at least give si a double take.

 

[Promethean Winchester]

I use a hatch based design for melee style bases but eventually I have to fall back to traps and guns (even on the first bm night) when the zombies overwhelm  me - playing on 2nd highest difficulty and max zombies.

The thing I love about this game is there are so many options on how you approach the bm horde.  Since you have to spend resources and constantly repair, eventually resort to bullets, explosives to fight off the bm horde implies that using hatches for a melee base is not an exploit.  This is not a case where we build a base and just sit there all night doing nothing during the horde night, we have to get in there and actually fight the bm zombies (i.e. the whole point of being a melee themed base).

Typcially by the 5th to 7th bm, my melee themed base has electric fences, blade traps, turrets (both junk and electrical), shooting areas, ways I can utilize explosives and molotovs without catching myself in the blast radius/setting myself on fire.  So I am using all aspects of base design to fight off the hordes.

Yeah... I don't think hatch bases need to be removed, because the game isn't balanced for that decision yet. If you remove melee/hatch bases for horde night, then you're punishing any player who doesn't invest into strength for mining. Why? Because you need gun powder (and lead) for bullets, and gunpowder for explosives. The game has way too much pidgeonholing already with the attribute system, we don't need to force everybody into Strength by forcing them to need bullets and gunpowder for horde night. Let them keep meleeing with hatch frames. It's not an exploit as long as you're expending resources on the repairs. Maybe just nerf steel hatches to have way less durability than they currently do. I mean by that logic, you'd have to nerf end-game intellect traps/bases, because you're effectively just standing there watching everything die all night. If they aren't going to nerf that, then I can't see them nerfing hatch bases where you actually have to keep manually fighting all night, managing stamina, repairs, consumables, and keeping a couple stacks of explosives or bullets on-hand in case of emergencies. It ain't broke, and it doesn't need to be fixed. It's a play style. A very efficient and badass one in the early-game, which has greatly reduced effectiveness in mid-late game when cops and demolishers start showing up. At that point you need to use explosives and bullets, but you'll have the gear required for mining whether you've invested in miner 69er/motherlode or not.

 

[Naz]

And did you also notice that the CPU load doesn't seem to increase at all even though it isn't at 100%? I don't think it is SI calculations but the updates to the world data that is slowing down your PC

Actually this is a misconception with how games use the cpu and how utilisation is displayed, most games will never use 100% unless it's an older cpu running a new game. In that example i had a 4 core 8 thread cpu and 7dtd was manually assigned 4 physical cores. So 50% usage is all the game could do, why locked to 4 threads? because using more than 4 threads actually makes performance suffer. Games also don't use all threads equally, so with 4 threads 7dtd only maxes out 2 with the other 2 used under 50%

Here's a couple screenshots, one is with 7dtd limited to 4 cores and the other is with all 16 cores 32 threads available to it. You can see fps is higher with just 4 cores and that core 0 is pinned on both while the others are 50% or lower.

 

Spoiler

 

[Naz]

And did you also notice that the CPU load doesn't seem to increase at all even though it isn't at 100%? I don't think it is SI calculations but the updates to the world data that is slowing down your PC

That is another indication that it has nothing to do with SI. When you shoot at a block and do not destroy it there is no necessity to make new SI calculations. So the drop could come from world data updates (possibly to a distant server?) or the impact graphics.

I'm not a game dev, i'm just saying what i see ingame, that example was in sp and you can clearly see the framerate dropping while the zombies hit the glass with no visible impact graphics.

I guess it could be the block damage crack indicators updating, but they're just a static black 2d texture i can't imagine they would be all that cpu intensive to update.

 

[meganoth]

I'm not a game dev, i'm just saying what i see ingame, that example was in sp and you can clearly see the framerate dropping while the zombies hit the glass with no visible impact graphics.

I guess it could be the block damage crack indicators updating, but they're just a static black 2d texture i can't imagine they would be all that cpu intensive to update.

No visible impact graphics? I see a white flash for each bullet hitting the cockpit screen and small triangular shards looking like glass fragments dropping. Moreover I see muzzle light flashing and the weapon moving.

Whether that should be enough to drop the FPS that much I don't know, generally the FPS always drop whenever something happens on screen. It might be a combination of everything, world updates, graphics, updates of your player state (you use up bullets)....

If you can show that shooting a zombie does not lead to the same drop in comparison you would start to have a good point. But it still isn't SI

 

[SnowDog1942]

From one of the few ladies who play the game,

Thanks.

Enchantra

Hello there, my name is SnowDog, pleased to meet you.

 

[Ouch Quit It]

Coughs * Airport POI * Coughs

 

[Mard-E-Momin]

Yeah... I don't think hatch bases need to be removed, because the game isn't balanced for that decision yet. If you remove melee/hatch bases for horde night, then you're punishing any player who doesn't invest into strength for mining. Why? Because you need gun powder (and lead) for bullets, and gunpowder for explosives. The game has way too much pidgeonholing already with the attribute system, we don't need to force everybody into Strength by forcing them to need bullets and gunpowder for horde night. Let them keep meleeing with hatch frames. It's not an exploit as long as you're expending resources on the repairs. Maybe just nerf steel hatches to have way less durability than they currently do. I mean by that logic, you'd have to nerf end-game intellect traps/bases, because you're effectively just standing there watching everything die all night. If they aren't going to nerf that, then I can't see them nerfing hatch bases where you actually have to keep manually fighting all night, managing stamina, repairs, consumables, and keeping a couple stacks of explosives or bullets on-hand in case of emergencies. It ain't broke, and it doesn't need to be fixed. It's a play style. A very efficient and badass one in the early-game, which has greatly reduced effectiveness in mid-late game when cops and demolishers start showing up. At that point you need to use explosives and bullets, but you'll have the gear required for mining whether you've invested in miner 69er/motherlode or not.

Spot on with that assessment! IMO I think the problem will be fixed since MadMole mentioned here on the forums that in A20 zombies will be able to pass thru one block! 

 

[Mard-E-Momin]

Love the game.  Keep up the great work.  Try not to ruin it with updates. (JK... or am I?)

Please, OH PLEASE, would you fix how the spider monkey zombie can hit through walls and hatches? He's killing my vibe.  I hates him. We ALL hates him. His screaming and jumping are quite enough.

Also, the vultures seem to have superspeed.  Since when can a vulture outrun a speeding motorcycle? 60mph is their natural max.  Were they exposed to radiation and have super powers?  Just curious.  

From one of the few ladies who play the game,

Thanks.

Enchantra

Better run while you can before our local SnowDog catches you...

 

[outhous]

I'm afaid you're too late there Mard-E-Momin.  

Hello there, my name is SnowDog, pleased to meet you.

 

[Naz]

No visible impact graphics? I see a white flash for each bullet hitting the cockpit screen and small triangular shards looking like glass fragments dropping. Moreover I see muzzle light flashing and the weapon moving.

Whether that should be enough to drop the FPS that much I don't know, generally the FPS always drop whenever something happens on screen. It might be a combination of everything, world updates, graphics, updates of your player state (you use up bullets)....

If you can show that shooting a zombie does not lead to the same drop in comparison you would start to have a good point. But it still isn't SI

I was talking about later in the video I spawned 2 zeds and watched them beat on the glass. I don't know the exact time code when it happens but its only a 1 minute clip so I'd guess after the 30 second mark XD

 

[KingSlayerGM]

Hello there, my name is SnowDog, pleased to meet you.

smooth

 

[Naz]

If you can show that shooting a zombie does not lead to the same drop in comparison you would start to have a good point. But it still isn't SI

Ok there has been many updates since a17 and i never showed shooting a zed and if it happens then. So i've retested and the video will be Here when it's done uploading (Slow internet bear with me ) This time i've set the overlay to display a realtime graph so you can really see the dips, Shooting a bear it fluctuated a little bit as you'd normally expect, then i shot up the side of a building and again stutter vile.

 

[Roland]

Also, the vultures seem to have superspeed.  Since when can a vulture outrun a speeding motorcycle? 60mph is their natural max.  Were they exposed to radiation and have super powers?  Just curious.  

Yes they do have much higher speed than living normal vultures. They also have a much greater hatred for vehicles than living normal vultures. You should think of them as zombie vultures rather than vulture vultures. The Blood moon does lend strength and super powers to the zombies during its influence. The zombie vultures are much faster on bloodmoon nights than they are at other times.

Is there a plan to allow the Field of View to be set much larger for those of us that get severely motion sick while playing at lower settings?

They have extended the range of the Field of View from where it used to be locked. The range they picked is limited by the occlusion of the world and not wanting players to see things popping in and out of existence within their visual range. It's doubtful they will extend it beyond where they did because they the range they picked was not arbitrary.

 

[KingSlayerGM]

Yes they do have much higher speed than living normal vultures. You should think of them as zombie vultures. The Blood moon does lend strength and super powers to the zombies during its influence. The zombie vultures are much faster on bloodmoon nights than they are at other times.

I think it is the vehicles that are slow, not the voltures that are fast, lol

 

[Roland]

I think it is the vehicles that are slow, not the voltures that are fast, lol

Yes, but if the devs are eventually able to increase the speed of the vehicles to keep up with world updates the zombie vultures will be sped up as well to match.

In other words, the comparative speeds of vehicles vs vultures is intended regardless of how actually fast or slow they are.

You are still adding VR support as per your kickstarter goal, right?

Depends on how many hopes and expectations you have injected into the word "support".....

 

[meganoth]

Ok there has been many updates since a17 and i never showed shooting a zed and if it happens then. So i've retested and the video will be Here when it's done uploading (Slow internet bear with me ) This time i've set the overlay to display a realtime graph so you can really see the dips, Shooting a bear it fluctuated a little bit as you'd normally expect, then i shot up the side of a building and again stutter vile.

Ok, that looks like something that might need investigating (says me. "me" as in "random user on the forum". Just a reminder to new forum users that I'm not speaking for TFP).

Two small problems that make the comparison difficult though: You hit dozens of different blocks on the wall but only one bear (but even if that is the difference it would be worth looking into it). And since the wall is a lot farther away, each bullet needs more effort to find out where it intersects with a hittable object.