PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

meganoth said:
This is not a good example. RWG world generation is done very different from loot randomization.

For starters the biome map is not generated, it is AFAIK one of a few preset maps. I don't know how many, at one time there was even only one. So it is very very probable that you will see the same biome map when generating multiple worlds.

Generally, when generating worlds, YOU set the seed for world generation. The name you give the world is the seed. Another seed you set is used for grass, plants and stone distribution. These seeds are definitely not random numbers and deliberately so.

Please correct me if I somehow misunderstood you.
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.... there is no point in having a conversation here - messages are transferred to another branch - the meaning of what was said is lost...

it turns out some nonsense...

If you(moderators) do it this way, then disallow any messages that are not addressed to developers so that conversations  between users do not start at all.

 
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n2n1 said:
Just by the way:

I can give an example, when in a discussion about the distribution of biomes i was shown a map.

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/22253-classic-style-hardcore-mod/?do=findComment&comment=414735

To check (without knowing seed) i generated any two maps.... and one of them - was exactly the same as i was shown....

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/22253-classic-style-hardcore-mod/?do=findComment&comment=414901

A coincidence? I do not think so.



I just want to repeat once again - it doesn't matter how the algorithms work, whether they are a real random or a masked sequence of numbers.... good - this is when her work is not thrown in the eye. And that the player would not pay attention to it. And that the player would not pay attention to it.
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The biome placement example might not be a good one. I believe that biome placements in RWG aren't actually random. At least an alpha or two ago, they were the same biome pattern all the time, except perhaps rotated. I don't know if that's still true, but it might be, or they might have just added a few more pre-determined biome maps to choose from.

I personally agree that the issue is not randomness but perceived randomness. I think of it as the "playlist shuffle" problem. Many music apps shuffle a playlist by just choosing a random song in the playlist. But that means it's a near-certainty that many songs will be played multiple times, before all the songs in the playlist are played at least once.

What most people expect is "shuffling" like a deck of cards - they don't want the songs to be randomized, they want the song order to be randomized. If they hear the same song twice, they think the shuffle "isn't working."

That's certainly true of quest rewards. You can specify in XML that certain kinds of rewards are "fixed" (always appear), and other kinds have a limited supply to draw from. It's not particularly surprising that the same rewards would be offered to more than one player.

But IMHO "fixing" this is more trouble than it's worth. Like the "playlist shuffle" issue, 7D2D would somehow have to keep track of which items had already been given to someone, and make sure the next "random" item wouldn't match any of those. It would take time to program, would be easy to game, and probably wouldn't add much.

On the other hand, if it's as simple as re-seeding the RNG before each use - and/or not getting a shared seed from the server - then that would probably be worth it, since it's trivial. But I think it's probably not that simple.

 
n2n1 said:
.... there is no point in having a conversation here - messages are transferred to another branch - the meaning of what was said is lost...

it turns out some nonsense...

If you(moderators) do it this way, then disallow any messages that are not addressed to developers so that conversations  between users do not start at all.
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Sorry, I meant to move the entire conversation but missed some which made it confusing. It is all here now and you are welcome to carry it on. I am not going to dissallow messages that are not addressed to the developers but messages that are not addressed to the developers will be moved out.

 
There are some things missing for me which would make this game a lot better for me (at least) and propbaly others.

1. Rotating prefabs in world editor

- Replacing, deleting etc works but could be improved, but I have to rotate them manually each time using xml files and need to reload the game to take effect.

2. Ability to remove items using the API.cs

- Would be the seed for TONS of cool features me & the community could develop.

3. Extended drop on death setting: keep equipment only

I hope I'm not asking for 2 much but those additions would make me really happy.

In case those features somehow already exist I would like to have some info how to make them work.

 
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khzmusik said:
/////

I personally agree that the issue is not randomness but perceived randomness. I think of it as the "playlist shuffle" problem. Many music apps shuffle a playlist by just choosing a random song in the playlist. But that means it's a near-certainty that many songs will be played multiple times, before all the songs in the playlist are played at least once.

What most people expect is "shuffling" like a deck of cards - they don't want the songs to be randomized, they want the song order to be randomized. If they hear the same song twice, they think the shuffle "isn't working."

//////
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Right.... Only in our case it turned out that the algorithm designed to solve "imaginary repetitions "generates "real repetitions".

I would like the developers to pay attention to this.

And what algorithm they will eventually choose-we should not care.  And what algorithm they will eventually choose-we should not care.

 
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n2n1 said:
No - it's not. I can change the ratio, size, and shape of biomes for generation - so this is definitely not a presets. 
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Where can you do that ?

What You're talking about - was earlier.

But i agree that it doesn't have much to do with loot. I just wanted to show that now there is nothing random, and very frequent recurrence in everything.

(of course, there is a mod here, but we are talking about algorithms that lie deeper)
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Mod? Are you talking about Nitrogen?

 
art1336 said:
Console did sell great...but then it got dropped and console players felt extremely shafted for paying money for a product that was never delivered.

I get what you're saying, and it's true that it "did" sell great before the Great Shafting, but it might seem callous to some to point that out,
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Careful, you're gonna get these PC boys fired up bringing that console sold so well. 

The PC version is by far superior however I started on ps4 & loved the game. I'm grateful it was released on console otherwise I may not have experienced this game as I'm not a pc gamer. 

On a side note, hopefully this post doesn't get moved, but do any of the devs know if there will be any additional experimental past 19.3? I actually haven't restarted since 19.1 and was considering restarting but I'll wait if there's gonna be a 19.4. 

Thanks Fun Pimps, love the game & look forward to Alpha 20!!

 
meganoth said:
Where can you do that ?

Mod? Are you talking about Nitrogen?
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In rwgmixer.xml. I use the very old code (similar the one that was in A16) - it still works.

And what you described - was in A17 (static map of biomes).

Of course mod, he did it based on the capabilities of the game itself. No third-party utilities and integrations are used.

Just take a look at the screenshots i made there.

 
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Unfortunately, A20 might be the update where I decide to quit because the climate survival I once enjoyed and loved has been stripped away.

I loved having the amount of clothing slots because I like tweaking the settings to also make it a winter survival game. Having 4 slots will ruin this mechanic and the game for me. Ever since A16 or A17, the "weather snow 0.4" command that added a layer of snow depth no longer worked. That disappointed me because I enjoyed playing with the weather settings to add a unique level of challenge for my friends where there would be cold fronts and snow in the desert or pine.

 
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Zark said:
Unfortunately, A20 might be the update where I decide to quit because the climate survival I once enjoyed and loved has been stripped away.

I loved having the amount of clothing slots because I like tweaking the settings to also make it a winter survival game. Having 4 slots will ruin this mechanic and the game for me. Ever since A16 or A17, the "weather snow 0.4" command that added a layer of snow depth no longer worked. That disappointed me because I enjoyed playing with the weather settings to add a unique level of challenge for my friends where there would be cold fronts and snow in the desert or pine.
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No offense, but really, this is what would make you quit? To each their own, but it is obvious that your loyalty is lacking.

 
MechanicalLens said:
No offense, but really, this is what would make you quit? To each their own, but it is obvious that your loyalty is lacking.
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Well I must say he's not wrong about it. I loved that snowing too. It added variety to the world. Now you always see the same world with the same textures. I wish snowy days would come back. But I wouldn't quit cause of the lack of it^^ I want to see where the game goes :adoration:

 
Xtrakicking said:
Loyalty? Starting to sound like a cult to me. Lol.

I mean, I think it's perfectly reasonable that someone would quit if the devs take away what made the game fun for them, don't you think?
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Nevertheless, quitting a game due to one simple change almost seems a bit petty to me. Perhaps there were other changes that they cannot currently recall that they were also not a fan of- a snowball effect if you will.

If you get married to any system in an alpha game, then you are just setting yourself up for disappointment.

 
n2n1 said:
In rwgmixer.xml. I use the very old code (similar the one that was in A16) - it still works.

And what you described - was in A17 (static map of biomes).

Of course mod, he did it based on the capabilities of the game itself. No third-party utilities and integrations are used.

Just take a look at the screenshots i made there.
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Ok. I have never played around with rwgmixer. I can't assess how much randomness would be in the old biome generation and how probable it was that you saw the same biome map.

1) Who knows, the generator might just select between 10 or 20 fixed versions of a biome map internally. Very unlikely since someone should have noticed this in A16 already.

2) Since all the rest of RWG is procedurally generated I would assume biome generation also uses the (user-provided) seed that is used for the rest of world generation. Are you sure that the other poster used a different name for WorldGenSeed AND GameName than you? Are you sure your biome does not depend on the WorldGenSeed or GameName?

3) A possibility is that your mod itself shrinked the possible biomes that can be generated by the biome generator.

4) Another possibility is that the old unused code that generates the biomes in your mod is buggy and removes all the randomness it would get from the random number generator.

I'm not saying you are wrong. This could be the basis of a proof, but at the moment this is just another weak indication there could be something wrong, with too much uncertainty what it really means. I'm sure you know more about this than I do and might be able to dismiss one or more of the possibilities I listed. But to dismiss all of them you would need access to the internal biome generator code and have analyzed it.

In summary, to prove it you have to give a lot more details and in this case only TFP internally could find out if this is a problem of its RNG in general or just some bug in old code that isn't used anymore. And how likely is it that they will try to follow any argument that leads to analyzing unused code that is probably on the way out of the code base? If you are really sure then you could make a bug report, but I suspect it likely will be ignored because of using old code.

If this were a murder investigation we would be at the point where we have a missing person that doesn't answer any calls. And we have a few suspects, one of them so old he will be dead before you can convict him. But neither do we have a dead body nor any proof of foul play at all. We need the dead body, not more people who tell us they didn't see him since yesterday. 😉

 
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Xtrakicking said:
Loyalty? Starting to sound like a cult to me. Lol.

I mean, I think it's perfectly reasonable that someone would quit if the devs take away what made the game fun for them, don't you think?
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Is it though?  :spy:

"Hello Fun Pimps? Yes, yes, I'd like to report a few names of unbelievers..."  :phone:

Blake_ said:
Hi @faatal , happy new year. Can you throw some fish stick for us to chew? I have prepared a few blunt yet sensual and direct questions regarding a20, I hope you don't mind.

1.  What are you working on at the moment ?

2. Are you allowed to talk about special infected ? Specifically stuff like : how many are in the works, how far ahead is the AI ... etc.

3. Any news about RWG ? Anything will do.

4. Any info about POI, models, weapons or general stuff  that is curently being adressed by the programming team that you know of?

Thanks in advance.
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All these questions can be summarized into: WHEN'S THE NEXT DEV STREAM!! I'M HUNGRY!!  :mad2: :hungry:

 
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Zark said:
Unfortunately, A20 might be the update where I decide to quit because the climate survival I once enjoyed and loved has been stripped away.

I loved having the amount of clothing slots because I like tweaking the settings to also make it a winter survival game. Having 4 slots will ruin this mechanic and the game for me. Ever since A16 or A17, the "weather snow 0.4" command that added a layer of snow depth no longer worked. That disappointed me because I enjoyed playing with the weather settings to add a unique level of challenge for my friends where there would be cold fronts and snow in the desert or pine.
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The old system could easily be simulated in a mod. Just create armors that have huge random variations in heat and cold resist (maybe this is even what TFP is doing with the 4 slots right now). Or even have seperate items "scrap chest armor with shirt", "scrap chest armor with duster", "scrap chest armor with poncho" (if the xml is generated with a small script it really isn't that much work)

I'm sure TFP is trembling now with fear since you threatened to quit 😄

 
Has anyone else had an issue with demolishers exploding upon every projectile hit? (Molotovs, rockets, grenades, etc.) I swear that every time I toss or shoot one of these items into a crowd with demolishers, the demolishers' buttons are all immediately set off.

 
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