PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[The-Walking-Dad]

Just popped on to say hi, and keep up the amazing work Fun Pimps!

 

[Burrfly]

@Roland wil you be updating the dev diary's first post today as you said last tuesday? I'm just super duper curious and excited for some news
If not, then that's ofcourse OK too.

 

[Survager]

Games are meant to in some way challenge you. Meaning that if something is mechanically difficult (pressing the correct key while under pressure) then it creates a skill division between people who can keep their calm and press the right keys and the people who can't. Which is player skill progression where you learn to not panic and stay cool. they shouldn't remove a feature just because it depends on an IRL skill. Panicking is a real thing you have to contend with in games (and in real life lol) where you die quickly. If the pressure of the game is really SOOOO crushing that you just start punching the left side of your keyboard whenever you see a zombie moving towards you then I would like to point out that you can re-map almost every key in the game and move the keys away from each other.

You are not entirely right, as the problem really exists.
The problem is that we have two buttons for stealth.
The first button (CTRL) puts the player in stealth with a single press, and the second button (C) keeps the player in stealth while the player keeps this button pressed.

@madmole @faatal @meganoth

It would be nice if the player, after switching to permanent stealth (CTRL), could cancel permanent stealth by pressing the "C" button, which is responsible for temporary stealth, and not must to remember which of these two buttons is responsible for which stealth option.

Don't you think so?

I have played more than 3000 hours and I still sometimes get confused about these stealth 

 

[Astronomical]

Games are meant to in some way challenge you. Meaning that if something is mechanically difficult (pressing the correct key while under pressure) then it creates a skill division between people who can keep their calm and press the right keys and the people who can't. Which is player skill progression where you learn to not panic and stay cool. they shouldn't remove a feature just because it depends on an IRL skill. Panicking is a real thing you have to contend with in games (and in real life lol) where you die quickly. If the pressure of the game is really SOOOO crushing that you just start punching the left side of your keyboard whenever you see a zombie moving towards you then I would like to point out that you can re-map almost every key in the game and move the keys away from each other.

I agree with you but the person who made the original comment is literally named "FranticDan". You expect a guy called @FranticDan to be calm?

 

[FranticDan]

Games are meant to in some way challenge you. Meaning that if something is mechanically difficult (pressing the correct key while under pressure) then it creates a skill division between people who can keep their calm and press the right keys and the people who can't. Which is player skill progression where you learn to not panic and stay cool. they shouldn't remove a feature just because it depends on an IRL skill. Panicking is a real thing you have to contend with in games (and in real life lol) where you die quickly. If the pressure of the game is really SOOOO crushing that you just start punching the left side of your keyboard whenever you see a zombie moving towards you then I would like to point out that you can re-map almost every key in the game and move the keys away from each other.

I play with nightmare speed, so yes, of course I'm going to panic and tense up when bikers are coming towards me from around the corner, especially rad bikers, they can kill you within a couple of seconds

In response to what meganoth said "A disadvantage of the proposed change though is that running while being stealthed is probably a much used mode while traversing medium distances in POIs."

My idea is having the toggle option in the settings, so you can enable or disable the auto stand up. A player who likes stealth will have it turned off, while a player like me who rarely uses stealth will have the option turned on

 

[Survager]

I play with nightmare speed, so yes, of course I'm going to panic and tense up when bikers are coming towards me from around the corner, especially rad bikers, they can kill you within a couple of seconds

In response to what meganoth said "A disadvantage of the proposed change though is that running while being stealthed is probably a much used mode while traversing medium distances in POIs."

My idea is having the toggle option in the settings, so you can enable or disable the auto stand up. A player who likes stealth will have it turned off, while a player like me who rarely uses stealth will have the option turned on

The game has two stealth buttons. One switches the mode, and the second turns it on only when the button is pressed. Why not use a button that turns on stealth while the button is pressed, instead of using the mode toggle button?

 

[FranticDan]

The game has two stealth buttons. One switches the mode, and the second turns it on only when the button is pressed. Why not use a button that turns on stealth while the button is pressed, instead of using the mode toggle button?

So basically, unmap the ctrl key?
Also, the only time I press C is when I use the gyro, pressing W and C at the same time is not something I've ever done. I'd have to change my muscle memory

 

[Survager]

So basically, unmap the ctrl key?
Also, the only time I press C is when I use the gyro, pressing W and C at the same time is not something I've ever done. I'd have to change my muscle memory

Vechicle management is configured separately.

 

[meilodasreh]

You are not entirely right, as the problem really exists.
The problem is that we have two buttons for stealth.
The first button (CTRL) puts the player in stealth with a single press, and the second button (C) keeps the player in stealth while the player keeps this button pressed.

@madmole @faatal @meganoth

It would be nice if the player, after switching to permanent stealth (CTRL), could cancel permanent stealth by pressing the "C" button, which is responsible for temporary stealth, and not must to remember which of these two buttons is responsible for which stealth option.

Don't you think so?

I have played more than 3000 hours and I still sometimes get confused about these stealth 

You're watching the news and the headline is (as several times every year) the following:

"Old man drives his car through a wall because he mixed up gas and brake pedal"

What is your reaction:

A

"confused senile $*I§head should get taken away his drivers license"

B

"poor old man, anti-gas-brake-confusing-device should be installed into cars"

C (option only available in the US of A)

"confused senile $*I§head should get taken away his drivers license, and car manufacturer must be sued for not having installed an anti-gas-brake-confusing-device"

 

[Survager]

You're watching the news and the headline is (as several times every year) the following:

"Old man drives his car through a wall because he mixed up gas and brake pedal"

What is your reaction:

A

"confused senile $*I§head should get taken away his drivers license"

B

"poor old man, anti-gas-brake-confusing-device should be installed into cars"

C (option only available in the US of A)

"confused senile $*I§head should get taken away his drivers license, and car manufacturer must be sued for not having installed an anti-gas-brake-confusing-device"

D - send the task author to hell )
If the controls in the game are interfering with the game, rather than helping, then the controls are having problems.
These are not Dark Souls, where camera work and controls play a role of additional complexity )

 

[MechanicalLens]

Sure, but there is also the thing that you might not be aware whether you are crouched or not. You can argue about both being about skill. But also those are very artificial skills because in reality you always know if you are crouched or not and you never need to press specific keys to stand up.

I hit the wrong keys from time to time even when I'm not under pressure and it is the question whether that should be an important skill check in the game.

A disadvantage of the proposed change though is that running while being stealthed is probably a much used mode while traversing medium distances in POIs.

I would propose a more conspicuous display of stealth mode. My main problem with all those icons on the lower left side (including the very important health and stamina bars) is that I can't keep them in view and 4-5 years of "training" has not improved the situation one bit. My dream would be that stealth mode paints a timeline display showing your noise over time directly above the toolbelt. Hard to miss and shows the most critical information to a stealther.

Or TFP could just bring back the eye at the center of the screen when crouched. 

 

[meilodasreh]

Or TFP could just bring back the eye at the center of the screen when crouched. 

Probably wouldn't make a difference in said panic situations.

It was already relatively clearly stated that "the controls should be changed cause player doesn't want to change his muscle memory"

Without wanting to get too philosophical, in fact that's one of the bigger problems mankind faces today. Seen from the perspective of evolution, one had to adapt to the given circumstances to succeed...nowerdays everybody is just complaining that the enviroment has to be adapted to the individuals best pleasure.

I myself have to admit that I have run into those "why is my running speed so damn slow oh I'm crouched...ouch get away zombie" situations.

...then I feel stupid some time and just start over.

 

[BFT2020]

Probably wouldn't make a difference in said panic situations.

It was already relatively clearly stated that "the controls should be changed cause player doesn't want to change his muscle memory"

Without wanting to get too philosophical, in fact that's one of the bigger problems mankind faces today. Seen from the perspective of evolution, one had to adapt to the given circumstances to succeed...nowerdays everybody is just complaining that the enviroment has to be adapted to the individuals best pleasure.

I myself have to admit that I have run into those "why is my running speed so damn slow oh I'm crouched...ouch get away zombie" situations.

...then I feel stupid some time and just start over.

I have run in the same situation - not realizing I am still crouched as I try to get away from a pack of zombies after me.

And I agree wit the statement that we shouldn't change the environment (toggle switches).  However, in real life, I can easily tell if I am crouched or not.  In the game, it sometimes is not apparent that I am crouching when I want to run away from the danger.  It would be nice (like Meganoth mentioned) if there was a better visual indicator that you are currently crouched or not.  I have no issues with the keys themselves, it is just that the awareness could be better IMHO.

 

[Survager]

Probably wouldn't make a difference in said panic situations.

It was already relatively clearly stated that "the controls should be changed cause player doesn't want to change his muscle memory"

Without wanting to get too philosophical, in fact that's one of the bigger problems mankind faces today. Seen from the perspective of evolution, one had to adapt to the given circumstances to succeed...nowerdays everybody is just complaining that the enviroment has to be adapted to the individuals best pleasure.

I myself have to admit that I have run into those "why is my running speed so damn slow oh I'm crouched...ouch get away zombie" situations.

...then I feel stupid some time and just start over.

According to your logic, character models and animations don't need to change... so they walk normally, shoot normally, look like people... from afar )))
Why improve something that already works even though it looks some wrong? )

 

[meilodasreh]

I have run in the same situation - not realizing I am still crouched as I try to get away from a pack of zombies after me.

And I agree wit the statement that we shouldn't change the environment (toggle switches).  However, in real life, I can easily tell if I am crouched or not.  In the game, it sometimes is not apparent that I am crouching when I want to run away from the danger.  It would be nice (like Meganoth mentioned) if there was a better visual indicator that you are currently crouched or not.  I have no issues with the keys themselves, it is just that the awareness could be better IMHO.

I see and agree.

There seems to be a bunch of people (including me) how faced that situations.

So what about getting the camera perspective a little lower than now when crouched, plus making the screen egde darker/dim (similar to the freeze and heat indicators)?

According to your logic, character models and animations don't need to change... so they walk normally, shoot normally, look like people... from afar )))
Why improve something that already works even though it looks some wrong? )

 Maybe you got me wrong here.

my logic is that when you hit the wrong button in a panic situation, it is you who made the mistake, and wanting a solution from somebody else to fit your individual needs (which might maybe/likely not work for the next person) is...well I just don't like that "I don't want to adapt, so I demand from others" attitude. 

So your example with general graphics/animations/other game improvements is something completely different.

 

[Survager]

So what about getting the camera perspective a little lower than now when crouched, plus making the screen egde darker/dim (similar to the freeze and heat indicators)?

It will not change anything. Now there is already an indicator of stealth over the indicators of health and stamina, but they do not help.
At the same time, if the exit from stealth mode works with any stealth button (CTRL or C), this may well solve the problem.

Isn't that easier than moving the camera and dimming the screen?

 

[samljer]

what other game?

They havent announced it, only stated theyre working on one.

No idea what its called, what genre it is, nothing. AFAIK only that theyre making another is all thats been said.

 

[FranticDan]

This is the only game I have played that doesn't auto uncrouch when you sprint (because of sprint crouching). Also, I want to make it clear, most of the time when I get jump scared, I am NOT crouching, and it's the panic that makes me crouch and then I can't run away. (because I press both ctrl and shift by mistake)

I don't understand why people are complaining about a simple toggle addition, just because they wouldn't personally use it. Imagine if you were forced to play with nightmare speed all of the time because TFP decided they wanted their zombies to be speed demons? You'd ask for the speed toggle option to come back, right?

Remember when you couldn't run while you were aiming? And then TFP made you auto unaim when sprinting?

 

[Jost Amman]

This is the only game I have played that doesn't auto uncrouch when you sprint (because of sprint crouching). Also, I want to make it clear, most of the time when I get jump scared, I am NOT crouching, and it's the panic that makes me crouch and then I can't run away. (because I press both ctrl and shift by mistake)

I don't understand why people are complaining about a simple toggle addition, just because they wouldn't personally use it. Imagine if you were forced to play with nightmare speed all of the time because TFP decided they wanted their zombies to be speed demons? You'd ask for the speed toggle option to come back, right?

Remember when you couldn't run while you were aiming? And then TFP made you auto unaim when sprinting?

I'm not against it. Also, as you said, other games do this.  :third:

 

[Laz Man]

This is the only game I have played that doesn't auto uncrouch when you sprint (because of sprint crouching). Also, I want to make it clear, most of the time when I get jump scared, I am NOT crouching, and it's the panic that makes me crouch and then I can't run away. (because I press both ctrl and shift by mistake)

I don't understand why people are complaining about a simple toggle addition, just because they wouldn't personally use it. Imagine if you were forced to play with nightmare speed all of the time because TFP decided they wanted their zombies to be speed demons? You'd ask for the speed toggle option to come back, right?

Remember when you couldn't run while you were aiming? And then TFP made you auto unaim when sprinting?

Sounds like a nice QoL improvement.  Thank goodness the game doesn't force anyone to play nightmare...