PC [A18 b143] - XP system unbalanced

[hellfox]

Greetings,

Short version:

A17 - 30 million XP = level 260

A18 b143 - 30 million XP = level 101

Thoughts on this:

With this massive nerf the game becomes almost impossible to play for single players, as the required XP curve becomes ever steeper, so there is virtually no way to reach a level, where you could get all the neccessary skills to play properly.

I understand, that the new class system is attempted to be encouraged, but there are certain skills you need from other skill trees too. So in order to get all main skills to level 10, you need 80 skill points. As the player level curve becomes ever steeper, level 100 is pretty much end game. To have so few points in end game leaves you incapable of learning some fundamental skills.

The XP gathering amount of A17 was fine in my opinion. If you want to make the game more difficult or encourage the class system, fine, but not by nerfing it so drastically. It would be nice, if you guys could find a different way to promote the class system.

Cheers

HellFox

 

[Beelzybub]

You can select a higher multiplier for xp in your game options if you would like to level faster.

 

[hellfox]

You can select a higher multiplier for xp in your game options if you would like to level faster.

Unfortunately that is not a solution for 2 reasons:

1. We're not talking gradual progression but exponential progression here. Once you reach the point, where the curve starts getting steep, you need massive amounts of XP for your next level. The level after that requires exponentially more. You know the story about the rice grains on the chess board, right? Try it for yourself. Give yourself 30 million XP to get to level 101. Then keep giving yourself the same amount and see how far you get before you run out of numbers in the console. The breaking point of the curve is somewhere around level 160 from what I can tell. Not that you'd ever reach that level by playing regularly.

2. Just upping the XP multiplier means that you hit a rock and get to level 50. But after the breaking point of the exponential xp curve, that multiplier doesn't help, because it doesn't work exponentially. So you ruin early gameplay but you don't solve the problem.

 

[vicflo]

This is because the sources of xp are linear. once you hit the point where you can mine/craft/kill mobs no faster or in greater quantity, including horde nights you have no source of higher xp. Unlike games where if you're lvl 80, you simply go to a lvl 80 area. other games where you hit a cap of like 50 or 100 but still level a secondary "power level" of some sort at the same xp rate would be cool, sort of how it is in destiny or the division. OR - seeing greater difficulty mobs that give more xp and quests going up to like tier 20.

ive set it at 200% xp and you still hit that point where xp sources dont match a reasonable xp gain to level further. maybe its by design though where it sort of forces you to choose perks wisely which is cool. only really affects marathon players though that actually like going into those 300+day maps to play god eating one cornbread per month and 1 shotting everything. but it seems fine in multiplayer where people get to specialize instead of having to perk everything yourself.

 

[Kresdja]

Found this in the progression.xml, the total amount needed for max level is insane.

Spoiler

<!-- A15: 8000 XP for level 1 and 134k for level 199, total cumulative of 9MXP; XPRequired = exp_to_level * experience_multiplier ^ level -->

<!-- A16: 8300 XP for level 1, total cumulative of 11MXP -->

<!-- A17: 11931 XP for level 1, total cumulative of 67MXP -->

<!-- A18: 10000 XP for level 1, total cumulative of 477538MXP at lvl 300 -->

 

[Kresdja]

Found this in the progression.xml, the total amount needed for max level is insane.

Spoiler

<!-- A15: 8000 XP for level 1 and 134k for level 199, total cumulative of 9MXP; XPRequired = exp_to_level * experience_multiplier ^ level -->

<!-- A16: 8300 XP for level 1, total cumulative of 11MXP -->

<!-- A17: 11931 XP for level 1, total cumulative of 67MXP -->

<!-- A18: 10000 XP for level 1, total cumulative of 477538MXP at lvl 300 -->

Gave myself what it says is total cumulative to reach level at 300...and it only got me to level 142.....so not sure what to make of that.

 

[hellfox]

Gave myself what it says is total cumulative to reach level at 300...and it only got me to level 142.....so not sure what to make of that.

Did you type 477538MXP (as a number obviously) into the console? Coz the console is limited to, I believe, 8 digits. So you have to repeatedly give yourself something like 10000000 multiple times.

 

[Brian9824]

Greetings,
Short version:

A17 - 30 million XP = level 260

A18 b143 - 30 million XP = level 101

Thoughts on this:

With this massive nerf the game becomes almost impossible to play for single players, as the required XP curve becomes ever steeper, so there is virtually no way to reach a level, where you could get all the neccessary skills to play properly.

I understand, that the new class system is attempted to be encouraged, but there are certain skills you need from other skill trees too. So in order to get all main skills to level 10, you need 80 skill points. As the player level curve becomes ever steeper, level 100 is pretty much end game. To have so few points in end game leaves you incapable of learning some fundamental skills.

The XP gathering amount of A17 was fine in my opinion. If you want to make the game more difficult or encourage the class system, fine, but not by nerfing it so drastically. It would be nice, if you guys could find a different way to promote the class system.

Cheers

HellFox

Its not a bug. Before you'd need to say hit level 80 just to unlock certain perks. Now that requirement is removed so you don't need to hit any level to unlock your perks and can buy them all up front. Getting high levels is not required anymore

 

[hellfox]

Its not a bug. Before you'd need to say hit level 80 just to unlock certain perks. Now that requirement is removed so you don't need to hit any level to unlock your perks and can buy them all up front. Getting high levels is not required anymore

You may not have to have a certain level to unlock skills anymore but you still need skill points and you don't get a lot of them, if you spend your entire life time getting from say level 80 to level 81.

 

[meganoth]

1) TFP have mentioned they are thinking about making the xp-per-level curve flat after you reached a specific level. My interpretation of this: If enough people ask on the main thread they might actually turn thoughts into action :cocksure:

2) You don't need any perk at level 5 to "win" the game. If you disagree, tell me which one.

3) The intended way of playing is mainly advancing in one attribute tree (and possibly a second one) and picking a few perks from other trees (mainly up to perk level 1 or 2, "living off the land" is a good example, most people just need one point in there). And then restart if you get bored. Anything above level 80 or 100 is viewed as not part of vanilla but an option that was left in by not actively preventing it.

4) If you want to get all perks at lvl 5 in one playthrough and get there fast, you need to mod the game.

 

[Gazz]

Reaching level 81 is not a winning condition in this game.

If you define this as your winning condition then please mod the game to achieve that goal in whatever time frame you see fit.

TFP has absolutely no problem with that.

Also, I still don't know which "XP imbalance" is the topic here.

Which activity is vastly more rewarding than others?

 

[Brian9824]

You may not have to have a certain level to unlock skills anymore but you still need skill points and you don't get a lot of them, if you spend your entire life time getting from say level 80 to level 81.

And? The goal is that its not going to be easy to get every perk. You can find many of the schematics so many perks aren't even needed as you loot.

Getting to say level 100 lets you make a very well rounded char with a ton of stuff maxed out. Every level after that just makes you stronger and stronger.

If your not a fan of that and want an ez mode you can easily modify the 1 line in the progression.xml to adjust it so that the xp doesn't scale up as much.

 

[njugul]

1) TFP have mentioned they are thinking about making the xp-per-level curve flat after you reached a specific level. My interpretation of this: If enough people ask on the main thread they might actually turn thoughts into action :cocksure:

Can xp/lvl be modded?

 

[hellfox]

"Reaching level 81 is not a winning condition in this game."

I never said reaching level 81 is a winning condition. Please stick to what I'm writing, not to what you interpret

"If you define this as your winning condition then please mod the game to achieve that goal in whatever time frame you see fit.

TFP has absolutely no problem with that."

As I'm not sure about the proper translation but I know you speak German, we shall file this "if you don't like it, mod it" under "Totschlagargument".

"Also, I still don't know which "XP imbalance" is the topic here.

Which activity is vastly more rewarding than others?"

Again, please read properly. It is not a single activity I was talking about but the system itself. The fact, that the exponential curve of XP, that are required for a level-up get's very steep, very soon and is not being balanced by the increase of XP gained per activity per level (coz you get more XP for the same activity the higher your level is).

Anyways, I'll just have to fix this myself, as is the case with every new bug-ridden alpha before we get any more invisible animal fixes from TFP. The topic can be closed.

 

[hellfox]

1) TFP have mentioned they are thinking about making the xp-per-level curve flat after you reached a specific level. My interpretation of this: If enough people ask on the main thread they might actually turn thoughts into action :cocksure:

I highly doubt it, but miracles might just happen

2) You don't need any perk at level 5 to "win" the game. If you disagree, tell me which one.

You completely missed the point I made. I'm not talking about getting skills early. I'm talking about the amount of XP you need at a certain point on the exponential xp/level-up curve to make a level up. Just plot level / xp required per level up and you'll see, that eventually, you will need insane amounts of XP just for a single level up. Check out Kresdja's post further up for some numbers.

3) The intended way of playing is mainly advancing in one attribute tree (and possibly a second one) and picking a few perks from other trees (mainly up to perk level 1 or 2, "living off the land" is a good example, most people just need one point in there). And then restart if you get bored. Anything above level 80 or 100 is viewed as not part of vanilla but an option that was left in by not actively preventing it.

You got any TFP-quotes about level 80 or 100 not being part of vanilla or where is this coming from? Because 100 skill points won't get you very far, even in the new way they want people to use the skill tree now.

4) If you want to get all perks at lvl 5 in one playthrough and get there fast, you need to mod the game.

Again, that was not the point I made in my original post.

 

[Brian9824]

There isn't any content in the game I couldnt easily do at level 50 let alone level 100. Heck at level 25ish about 1/3 of my gear is now purple. Just got a purple AK, purple Steel spear, and purple military helmet last night.

If you can't get very far with 100 skill points then there is something seriously wrong with how you are playing.

 

[Kresdja]

The whole point of this post, at least from what I took from it, was that the xp required per level at a certain point is insanely too high.

Reaching level cap would be something that I would classify as "beating the game" for 7 days to die. The current xp system makes this worse than leveling up to 99 in Diablo 2. Based on numbers I've seen, we're talking hundreds of hours to hit level 300. The xp per action is the same at level 1 as it is at level 150. XP required to level at level 1 is 10,000, XP to level at 150 is like 10 million (I don't remember exactly, but it was in millions according to console), and around level 200, I'm pretty sure it was around 100 million per level.

It's not about "ez mode" or difficulty. It's more about seeing some sort of progression vs time played.

Here's the formula, pulled from progression.xml:

XPRequired = exp_to_level * experience_multiplier ^ level

Level information:

level max_level="300" exp_to_level="10000" experience_multiplier="1.05" skill_points_per_level="1"

so 10,000 * 1.05 ^ 50 = 114673

10,000 * 1.05 ^ 150 = 15079774 15 MILLION

10,000 * 1.05 ^ 200 = 172925808 127 MILLION

10,000 * 1.05 ^ 300 = 22739961286 22 BILLION

 

[hellfox]

The whole point of this post, at least from what I took from it, was that the xp required per level at a certain point is insanely too high.
Reaching level cap would be something that I would classify as "beating the game" for 7 days to die. The current xp system makes this worse than leveling up to 99 in Diablo 2. Based on numbers I've seen, we're talking hundreds of hours to hit level 300. The xp per action is the same at level 1 as it is at level 150. XP required to level at level 1 is 10,000, XP to level at 150 is like 10 million (I don't remember exactly, but it was in millions according to console), and around level 200, I'm pretty sure it was around 100 million per level.

It's not about "ez mode" or difficulty. It's more about seeing some sort of progression vs time played.

Here's the formula, pulled from progression.xml:

XPRequired = exp_to_level * experience_multiplier ^ level

Level information:

level max_level="300" exp_to_level="10000" experience_multiplier="1.05" skill_points_per_level="1"

so 10,000 * 1.05 ^ 50 = 114673

10,000 * 1.05 ^ 150 = 15079774 15 MILLION

10,000 * 1.05 ^ 200 = 172925808 127 MILLION

10,000 * 1.05 ^ 300 = 22739961286 22 BILLION

Finally someone get's my point! Thank you. A small correction though. You do get more XP for the same action the higher your level is, with some actions though - not all of them. However that graph's curve is not exponential but roughly liniar. Having a liniar graph of XP gained vs an exponential graph of XP required will result in the problem you rightly stated. At some point, you require too much time for any progression.

 

[njugul]

So I take it, we cannot change the formula for XPRequired?

I plan to play at 300% XP with A18 and more perk points after the tutorial quest, but it might still feel too slow. Modding the formula would help.

 

[hellfox]

So I take it, we cannot change the formula for XPRequired?
I plan to play at 300% XP with A18 and more perk points after the tutorial quest, but it might still feel too slow. Modding the formula would help.

Line 6 in progressions xml

<level max_level="300" exp_to_level="10000" experience_multiplier="1.05" skill_points_per_level="1">

Change the multiplier but be careful. Small changes make a big change

- - - Updated - - -

Level information:

level max_level="300" exp_to_level="10000" experience_multiplier="1.05" skill_points_per_level="1"

so 10,000 * 1.05 ^ 50 = 114673

10,000 * 1.05 ^ 150 = 15079774 15 MILLION

10,000 * 1.05 ^ 200 = 172925808 127 MILLION

10,000 * 1.05 ^ 300 = 22739961286 22 BILLION

Btw this formula is wrong. 30 million XP is level 101. You can test it by giving yourself that amount of xp in a fresh game. I hope TFP know this...