PC A18 Attribute huge step in right direction, but room for improvement.

I agree, the perk system is pretty weird.

Some skills you almost always need, but that can be locked if you decide on using a different weapon, some skills that will be unlocked by recipes making them total waste, some skills that require pretty high level to reach, but the items they grant can just be looted at the first levels, some skills that even requiring a heavy investments only need to be used once and then you better respec out of them....

many things dont make much sense.

 
Actually you still are forced into STR INT build early game solo, no way around it. You need Miner69er to improve your tools, and Motherlode to mass mats efficiently as you have no assists grabbing that stuff for you. You need to spec into INT ASAP to gain access to a forge as everything now requires Forged Iron to fix with the repair kits costing 1 duct tape, 1 forged iron otherwise you'll be running stone tools for a very long time. Also with the nest nerfs to feathers you will need to run melee early game in order to clear zeds, and for basic self defense. STR/INT build is still a mandatory thing IMO at least until around lvl 40-50 at least.
Then there is the Master Chef, Pack Mule, and Trex perks which are must haves IMO as you will get caught by a zombie with no stam to run or to defend yourself via melee, as swinging a tool will eat your stam very rapidly. In testing it is more effiecient to lvl this perk over max stamina as you will swing for longer with 100 stam and max trex than you will with 200 stam and no trex.

INT is also needed for basic crafting benches, I.E. Workbench, Mixers, Forges, Chem Station. Not specing strength and INT early game you put yourself at a massive disadvantage.
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Actually I do fine completly ignoring intel in A18, I get adv engineering level 1 cuz it doesn't require any other investment for the forge speed increase. Can get schematics for everything else, as for workbench etc, can use ones in poi's when playing single player as no one to worry about stealing your stuff. My current game on warrior difficulty, I found the workbench AND chem station schematics on day 6, trader also had a workbench for sale for 4k on day 7 as well. Stats I focus on early game is srt and fort. Str cuz it has the only decent melee weapons, and it has must have perks like sex t-rex, miner 69'er, motherload. Fort I get for Healing factor, heavy armor, living off the land 1 and pain tolerance as pain tolerance's 25% health loss reduction stacks on top of armor after the armor reduction is applied.

I love the pistol in a18, but I just can't justify wasting points in agility, just for pistol use, when it really offers nothing else i'd consider bothering with. Same for intel, there are schematics now, and I am used to using workbenches and such out in the world, I do wish I could craft faster though thats the only downside to no int. Then again I suppose I could just ruin 2 chem labs to mass produce gunpowder faster. Takes me 150+ minutes real time to make 4000 gun powder. I also do not take the lock picking skill in perception as I feel its overpowered for a skill you can get with 0 investment. IMO it should require 6 perception for level 1.

 
I agree, the perk system is pretty weird.
Some skills you almost always need, but that can be locked if you decide on using a different weapon, some skills that will be unlocked by recipes making them total waste, some skills that require pretty high level to reach, but the items they grant can just be looted at the first levels, some skills that even requiring a heavy investments only need to be used once and then you better respec out of them....

many things dont make much sense.
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IMO the respec shouldn't exist, not in a game like 7dtd, you could respec go all int build everything you need, then respec out of it and keep it all. Kinda exploitable imo, and 40k dukes is NOT that hard to make, even less if you have better barter.

I still feel TFP needs to have a general perk like that has stuff like miner 69'er, motherload, sex t-rex, better barter and such. Could make their unlocks require x amount total spent into stat points across all stats. I REALLY hate the fact weapons are locked to stats now though, you have no idea how much I hate it. I can't wait for the darkness falls mod, as imo its how a18 should be. it has the stats removed entirely. Action skills for things that make sense (Weapons, armor use, tool use), rest of stuff is usually level or class locked. You wanna get good at a weapon in that mod? you have to actually use it. Once its out i'll probally never touch vanilla a18 ever again, just like a17, as I found DF just a far better version of the game than vanilla ever was. Not to mention its way more challenging, with a ton of new zombies some with new abilitys.

 
Playing on default settings I have not used int at all and seem to be doing fine in the early stages at least. You do not need INT to craft things if you build yourself to loot and sell stuff since almost everything is available through loot or purchase. You need INT only if you can't tolerate the random factor.

Fair to say you feel forced, but to claim everyone does is not truthful.

 
IMO the respec shouldn't exist, not in a game like 7dtd, you could respec go all int build everything you need, then respec out of it and keep it all. Kinda exploitable imo, and 40k dukes is NOT that hard to make, even less if you have better barter.
I still feel TFP needs to have a general perk like that has stuff like miner 69'er, motherload, sex t-rex, better barter and such. Could make their unlocks require x amount total spent into stat points across all stats. I REALLY hate the fact weapons are locked to stats now though, you have no idea how much I hate it. I can't wait for the darkness falls mod, as imo its how a18 should be. it has the stats removed entirely. Action skills for things that make sense (Weapons, armor use, tool use), rest of stuff is usually level or class locked. You wanna get good at a weapon in that mod? you have to actually use it. Once its out i'll probally never touch vanilla a18 ever again, just like a17, as I found DF just a far better version of the game than vanilla ever was. Not to mention its way more challenging, with a ton of new zombies some with new abilitys.
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Exactly, Since I love building I cant see myself playing a single game without miner69 and motherload, so with the new system I can just chose between maces or sledgehammers for all my games.

Weapons shouldnt be treated like the rest of the perks, since wepaons is the best example of "chose one OR the other" for each game. While other things are needed at the same time.

 
Str isn't really required. Sure it'd be painful to collect all the materials to build some massive base but I think I've only been going one point into Mother Lode and Pack Mule.

 
Str isn't really required. Sure it'd be painful to collect all the materials to build some massive base but I think I've only been going one point into Mother Lode and Pack Mule.
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Doesn't the Auger mine fast enough to get materials for late game? If not then what is the point of the auger?

 
Str isn't really required. Sure it'd be painful to collect all the materials to build some massive base but I think I've only been going one point into Mother Lode and Pack Mule.
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It's not required. But if you like to spend 60% of your time fighting, you got multiple choices to be 100% effective. If I like to spend 60% of the time gathering and building, I only have 1 good choice.

 
1 point in miner69er, which requires no strength increase, will get you mats. 2 extra points, for 2 str and miner69er level 2 will give you Q2 tools and more than enough mining power. If you REALLY want to go nuts, you can grab 3 total points in Str, 3 miner69er...this also gives you access to motherlode up to level 3, pack mule up to level 3...all without "being forced into strength" - you've invested up to a whopping STR 3, and never need to bother going higher.

For INT, as already mentioned, you can snag advanced engineering 1 with no investment into the attribute. You can use found workbenches (yes, it requires RNG, but there's a LOT of them out there).

I avoid INT in my solo games, and have yet to go beyond STR 3....I mine incredibly effectively without investing any more (and, actually rather absurdly, salvage operations turns the wrench into a viable mining tool). I make a point of churning through houses quickly, and looking for stores that might have bookcases, so I can find recipes. I mark workbench, cement mixer, and chem station locations on my map. In other words, I use the workarounds that already exist in the game to ignore attributes I'd rather not bother with.

 
1 point in miner69er, which requires no strength increase, will get you mats. 2 extra points, for 2 str and miner69er level 2 will give you Q2 tools and more than enough mining power.
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That's like using spears as your weapon and saying level 2 in spears will get you enough power to kill. Yeah sure, but come on.

 
That's like using spears as your weapon and saying level 2 in spears will get you enough power to kill. Yeah sure, but come on.
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Oh, so you want specialization-level proficiency without having to invest in getting it?

If your whole purpose is to mine in game and build the absolute biggest things...then why would specializing in mining feel like being pigeonholed?

Plus you mentioned early game. Early game, level 2 miner69er is plenty...midgame, level 2 miner69er with a Q3-5 iron or steel tool, which is easily available from loot or a trader (and at worst, you'd have a Q2 iron pick) IS plenty....just like level 2 spears with a Q3-5 iron or steel spear would be. And late game you have fully modded Q6 or an auger....just like you'd have a fully modded Q6 spear...or a rifle.

You have multiple options (strength focus, strength splash, perception wrench mining, auger mining, taking over a POI and buying the last few mats from a trader), and 1 is better than the others. If I want to mow down zombies as fast as possible, I also have multiple options, but one is going to be the best. An M60 will outperform the other weapons in sustained mass zombie killing. Does that mean I'm pigeonholed into endurance? that all other attributes are worthless? Or will that M60 still perform just fine with only a few points in machineguns? Maybe I could even use shotguns, AK47, marksman rifle, heck, even pistols....they might not be QUITE as effective, but if depends what each individual person wants to prioritize in a particular playthrough.

If i think being completely self-sufficient and crafting everything myself is the be-all, end-all of the game, then I'll probably main intelligence.

If I want to play a ninja and sneak and jump around, dealing with the blood moon horde by hit-and-run avoidance tactics, then agility is for me

If I want to play a mole-person, digging through the earth like that drill guy in "Incredibles" and whacking things with a giant hammer, then strength.

If I want to play a slow moving, unstoppable tank capable of dishing out sustained pain while staying alive, then endurance.

If I want to play any random combination of the above, knowing full well that I have to give up some things to get others, I can.

What I can't do, is everything, all at once, while being the best at everything. I can't specialize into both having cake, AND eating it.

 
If i think being completely self-sufficient and crafting everything myself is the be-all, end-all of the game, then I'll probably main intelligence.

If I want to play a ninja and sneak and jump around, dealing with the blood moon horde by hit-and-run avoidance tactics, then agility is for me

If I want to play a mole-person, digging through the earth like that drill guy in "Incredibles" and whacking things with a giant hammer, then strength.

If I want to play a slow moving, unstoppable tank capable of dishing out sustained pain while staying alive, then endurance.

.
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Again, If this is TFP intent I'm completely fine with it. However, naming them attributes and not classes is misleading. I think the skill system has greatly improved from A17. Though, I believe TFP need to name them classes or if they want to stick with attributes provide some benefit beyond weapon proficiency.

I dont believe the attributes should add any type of combat abilities. This would only push the game to be unbalanced. But to provide some kind of quality of life is in my opinion a good compromise.

In conclusion, I suggest TFP do as my original post suggested or switch the attribute names to classes "Marksman, Bruiser, Scrapper, Rogue, Macgyver as an example".

 
I say they just leave them as “attributes” and let people who squirm about vocabulary and jargon find their own way to cope with it. I hope not one second of dev time is spent re-labeling stuff because some people don’t like how the word “attribute” strikes their fancy.

Another thing...the attributes give bonuses in addition to unlocking perk levels and the weapon perks give bonuses beyond simply unlocking a higher tier for crafting. I’m starting to think some people can’t read the descriptions or something.

 
I say they just leave them as “attributes” and let people who squirm about vocabulary and jargon find their own way to cope with it. I hope not one second of dev time is spent re-labeling stuff because some people don’t like how the word “attribute” strikes their fancy.
Another thing...the attributes give bonuses in addition to unlocking perk levels and the weapon perks give bonuses beyond simply unlocking a higher tier for crafting. I’m starting to think some people can’t read the descriptions or something.
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I have to admit that the commentary of this post changed from my original intent, that was to merge weaker skills with the attributes to make them more meaningful and replace with better skills. The skills I suggested to merge with the attributes are not skills I would assume many players waist points on until they have an abundance of spare points. I would much rather this be the change than renaming the attributes.

Again, the skills are a huge step from A17 and I like the direction. But there is still room for improvement and as I said above these are only suggestions. This is the point of people who play games in Alpha, to test and make suggestions in an attempt to improve the game. If TFP don't like my suggestions, than so be it. I will keep on playing and enjoying the game.

 
I say they just leave them as “attributes” and let people who squirm about vocabulary and jargon find their own way to cope with it. I hope not one second of dev time is spent re-labeling stuff because some people don’t like how the word “attribute” strikes their fancy.
Another thing...the attributes give bonuses in addition to unlocking perk levels and the weapon perks give bonuses beyond simply unlocking a higher tier for crafting. I’m starting to think some people can’t read the descriptions or something.
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I've read the descriptions and I still think it's a sloppy implementation of attributes & perks that copies other games without apparently understanding why it worked for those. It's going to be near impossible to balance across MP & SP and it's not very intuitive whether you're used to traditional RPG systems or not.

There should have been separate combat & crafting (maybe also exploration or something) skill trees that don't conflict with each other, and are balanced so that it's not possible to max out either too soon. Skills that work around the same weapon types/fighting styles/item groups can have their own branches, so you are still specializing, but now you can invest in crafting separately (obviously at the expense of investing in combat perks) without having to put points into attributes or perks you're not interested in.

Or you can continue to balance single player as if it's a multiplayer game and act like people who criticize the system don't read properly and just want everything day one :)

 
I say they just leave them as “attributes” and let people who squirm about vocabulary and jargon find their own way to cope with it. I hope not one second of dev time is spent re-labeling stuff because some people don’t like how the word “attribute” strikes their fancy.
Another thing...the attributes give bonuses in addition to unlocking perk levels and the weapon perks give bonuses beyond simply unlocking a higher tier for crafting. I’m starting to think some people can’t read the descriptions or something.
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no we can read. its just the bonuses are kinda crappy. how does increaseing damage or decap chance for various weapons mean your better with your attribute? i put points into intelligence, give me something related to intelligence. not more damage. if i want damage i should go for perception or strength depending on weapon.

 
After playing today I did that reading thing and noticed several glasses/drugs/skills that give bonuses to attributes. With the attribute only affecting damage/decap for specific weapons this also degrades the value of the glasses/drugs/skills.

If no change is made to the attributes will glasses, fort bites, and charismatic aura be changed in order to be more beneficial?

 
1 point in miner69er, which requires no strength increase, will get you mats. 2 extra points, for 2 str and miner69er level 2 will give you Q2 tools and more than enough mining power. If you REALLY want to go nuts, you can grab 3 total points in Str, 3 miner69er...this also gives you access to motherlode up to level 3, pack mule up to level 3...all without "being forced into strength" - you've invested up to a whopping STR 3, and never need to bother going higher.
For INT, as already mentioned, you can snag advanced engineering 1 with no investment into the attribute. You can use found workbenches (yes, it requires RNG, but there's a LOT of them out there).

I avoid INT in my solo games, and have yet to go beyond STR 3....I mine incredibly effectively without investing any more (and, actually rather absurdly, salvage operations turns the wrench into a viable mining tool). I make a point of churning through houses quickly, and looking for stores that might have bookcases, so I can find recipes. I mark workbench, cement mixer, and chem station locations on my map. In other words, I use the workarounds that already exist in the game to ignore attributes I'd rather not bother with.
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Yeah I usually use the workstations I find in the world until I get the schematic or just buy one off a trader in a18 if they happen to stock them, its rare but i've gotten chem stations early this way.

 
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