PC A18.1 (b6) Changes: Mining iron ore yields iron?!?

All of this back and forth over who said what is getting annoying and just shows that people care where the game is heading but are being left in the dark about it. The unknown and hypothetical are scary to some. So why not post a PROPER ROAD MAP!? Then people can prepare for what’s coming and the discussions have some kind of direction. I don’t think that’s asking a lot and it could alleviate some of the drama.

Loc
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Their roadmap is a living document that gets updated constantly. People around here have shown they can’t deal with change very well. It’s hard to say whether making it public or not would be better or worse.

When they were in the midst of testing A18 I wondered similarly why not just post builds every once in awhile to the experimental tap branch. Then experimental hit and I remembered why it’s a bad idea.

But what exactly do you feel in the dark about? I’d be happy to enlighten you. I think pretty much everything on the roadmap is public knowledge excepting the timing of when it will be done.

 
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So publicly musing about how you might do things differently if you had to do it over again is on par with telling your children you wish you had remained childless? You guys are certainly emotionally fragile if you take his thoughts on the difficulties inherent with voxels as a personal attack against his supporters.
Too many sacred cows here. Some community manager for some other game is Jesus and voxels are Madmole’s precious children he regrets having....

You’re right that you don’t really need to read the following pages because his OP itself stated clearly that he was merely considering a future option for static terrain. It’s just that by time he got to that part, people’s tears were blinding them so they couldn’t read past all the voxel abortions they were visualizing. The following pages didn’t water it down—he just explained over and over that voxels aren’t going away and he was talking about a possible option for an alternate game mode and expressing frustration as a designer about the difficult challenge of working with voxels.
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You come across as really bitter here. I don't see what a call for transparency and communication as a bulwark against unneeded drama has to do with sacred cows. The messianic exaggeration is likewise totally uncalled for. I used the term worshipped figuratively in an attempt to communicate how valued Bex is by the community, not for you to take it to the level of the absurd.

This is exactly why a Community Manager would be helpful. To diffuse this atmosphere between TFP employees and players that is condescending at best and toxic at worst and to let people focus on the jobs they're actually there for - to keep the devs developing and the mods keeping the forums clean.

 
Their roadmap is a living document that gets updated constantly. People around here have shown they can’t deal with change very well. It’s hard to say whether making it public or not would be better or worse.
When they were in the midst of testing A18 I wondered similarly why not just post builds every once in awhile to the experimental tap branch. Then experimental hit and I remembered why it’s a bad idea.

But what exactly do you feel in the dark about? I’d be happy to enlighten you. I think pretty much everything on the roadmap is public knowledge excepting the timing of when it will be done.
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By "in the dark" I just meant a lot of people on the forum guessing where the gaming is heading and/or what it should be. I realize that this type of thing can have it's positives and negatives, but do you really think it could get any worse than it has in the last few days???

I think having a clearly defined roadmap of what features and updates are planned for the next few months could at least keep things on topic and TFP and moderators would be able to tell before hand if what they have planned is going to blow back in their face or not. I also think that it will give the community something tangible to talk about rather than hopes, dreams, and wants. Topic threads could be created more specific on different features and could help generate more on-topic ideas from the community (if that's what TFP would want).

I dunno. It's just a suggestion. I see other companies do it and it seems to work well. Maybe this community is more critical of every little detail, but to me it would be worth any blow back to have better insight into where TFP's thinking is at in regards to the future of the game.

Loc

 
I liked the iron ore. It feels realistic to have to smelt ore in a furnace, and it made the forge more necessary, and IMO, you should have to do the same with lead, and even having to mine copper and zinc and alloy them into brass would be fun. These are just things that enhance the survival / outdoorsman aspect of the game, imo.

 
So why not post a PROPER ROAD MAP!?
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Because they make it up as they go along and change things on a whim without thinking them through properly?

I mean with some of the changes we old timers have seen....what else are we supposed to think? E.g Reduced wandering zombie numbers in the world. I'd like to hear from just one person who asked for or expected that clanger.

People around here have shown they can’t deal with change very well.
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Completely unexpected and downright stupid changes? Yeah some of us are pretty bad at dealing with those.

 
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It’s hard to say whether making it public or not would be better or worse.
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I'm flabbergasted. Of course making it public is the best idea...if it exists. It would for one thing help some of us determine if it's worth sticking with the game or not - something I ask myself with each passing alpha - the idea of Bandits....jeez....no thanks. And for another it will help attract new players. New players love to see a roadmap for Early Access games and it helps encourage them to part with cash for EA titles. I know when I am on the fence about buying an EA game - especially one with only average reviews like this - a roadmap is often what makes me take the plunge. Or perhaps more accurately, the lack of one makes me pass.

 
Completely unexpected and downright stupid changes? Yeah some of us are pretty bad at dealing with those.
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Yeah which are the opinions of a few of you. Game's had more people consistantly playing than any other version, and it's not a finished game. I swear some of you are in constant states of fuming rage if one singular thing in your life changes lol. Chill out, jesus.

 
Your example may be viewed as a bad thing though. While it is probably a change without consequences for most players, in your case it actually made a difference.
Not a big one, as int player you can afford a forge "farm" better than anyone else. But still...
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I am on day 84 with full Act of mining book + lv6 auger, zero death, default settings. To make my junk ammo production more time efficient, I mine and forge in bulk quantity so I only need to attend to the iron forge once a week. Screamer get killed by junk turret before she can call in the zombies so heat is not an issue. I think the difference is in the time saving from managing the forge, and may be save some trees for burning fuel.

 
Their roadmap is a living document that gets updated constantly. People around here have shown they can’t deal with change very well. It’s hard to say whether making it public or not would be better or worse.
When they were in the midst of testing A18 I wondered similarly why not just post builds every once in awhile to the experimental tap branch. Then experimental hit and I remembered why it’s a bad idea.

But what exactly do you feel in the dark about? I’d be happy to enlighten you. I think pretty much everything on the roadmap is public knowledge excepting the timing of when it will be done.
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While all the information might be out there, if it isn't compiled into a single convenient location then people are just going to assume there's no plan.

Personally I'd love to have a public roadmap, but I can also just wait.

Anyways, every change will definitely have somebody complaining about it, but that's just what you get when a multi-genre game becomes successful.

At some point the primary genre focus is decided and everybody who preferred a different one is going to start complaining when they notice.

The ideal solution is to have enough modding potential for people to have both sides of the coin, which is already pretty close to being true.

 
Completely unexpected and downright stupid changes? Yeah some of us are pretty bad at dealing with those.
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Such as? And please don't say the removal of raw iron. That ought not have been unexpected, nor is it by any stretch stupid.

 
Their roadmap is a living document that gets updated constantly. People around here have shown they can’t deal with change very well. It’s hard to say whether making it public or not would be better or worse.
When they were in the midst of testing A18 I wondered similarly why not just post builds every once in awhile to the experimental tap branch. Then experimental hit and I remembered why it’s a bad idea.

But what exactly do you feel in the dark about? I’d be happy to enlighten you. I think pretty much everything on the roadmap is public knowledge excepting the timing of when it will be done.
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Why did you think it was such a bad idea?

And please explain WHY it seems TFP are so resistant to criticism. And dont deflect with the usual "No they arent they take criticism head on and apply where applicable" responses. Your reasons for why a roadmap is not posted or why experimental branches are not often posted up is because of the backlash they would get from changes.

That is literally a part of Early Access. So Pimps want the privacy of a closed beta with the benefits of selling copies in Early Access? And if a section of people do not like a particular thing then well take your ball and go home?

If anything some of the responses made here by officials and higher ups only prove why we need a community manager like a Bex. You guys sit around and circle jerk about how great you are to your players, and how open devs are to peoples opinions. But look around you. Look at devs from dozens of other games. And I am not talking AAA because Pimps are NOT AAA they are as indie as other EA teams on Steam etc. Look at Factorio, Zomboid etc. Those devs have WEEKLY newsletters detailing changes and builds, they interact on multiple platforms including reddit and discord and GASP steam too.

But whenever an unpopular opinion comes up all we get as a community is 'you better be lucky we interact" or "thats it im going dark see you"

WTF is that? You're not Rockstar Games. Stop treating your community like they need to worship everything lest we be punished with cut off communications. Its the exact opposite of good PR. All it creates is more hostility.

And if its decided they no longer wish to communicate due to community reaction thats ok, it IS their choice. But those same people will remember that when the next game comes out, just like they will remember that what they bought into is slowly turning into not what it was at first. That leaves a taste, and people remember. Who is to say they announce a western zombie game and then 5 years later it turns into a space bounty hunter game on a whim? Its a realistic possibility since the base game has undergone a complete facelift from what people bought into years ago.

You do things like ask for evidence or say prove it and when people do that you brush it off as out of context. It is not out of context. Hes an owner, stating he regrets the direction they took. Who is making decisions to this day to streamline mechanics. It is VERY relevant how he feels here.

 
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Man, you guys sure pick the strangest things to worry about. This is what has you upset, but steel tool parts and machete parts and spike knuckle parts are way harder to get than parts to build any other top tier weapon/item. No body cares about that. Nah, it's all about "Muh Iron Brah!" When this change only really removed one step from making turret ammo and a redundant ore.

 
I think the whole system should be a bit more combined and streamlined, by combining all resources and call them "crafting stuff".

If the player is lacking resources, the game mentions "you lack resources for crafting, get more crafting stuff by clicking on mining ground using your mining tool".

No need to have so many steps in-between to get the shooting things.

 
All of this back and forth over who said what is getting annoying and just shows that people care where the game is heading but are being left in the dark about it. The unknown and hypothetical are scary to some. So why not post a PROPER ROAD MAP!? Then people can prepare for whatآ’s coming and the discussions have some kind of direction. I donآ’t think thatآ’s asking a lot and it could alleviate some of the drama.

Loc
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The problem with a Road Map is TFP are in uncharted territory with the type of voxel game they are making. It's almost like Columbus with his crew afraid they will fall off the world any second. It a good thing his math was incorrect, calculating the distance to India and the Orient or he might have turned around after hearing all the complaints... or never left! :)

Yes, with hindsight, somethings didn't work out with the current state of the average players computer.

Should TFP have calculated every possible road block, then after extensive analysis gone forth with: The Plan? That would have been nice, I guess. But if Columbus had done that, he never would have tried.

 
I'm flabbergasted. Of course making it public is the best idea...if it exists. It would for one thing help some of us determine if it's worth sticking with the game or not - something I ask myself with each passing alpha - the idea of Bandits....jeez....no thanks. And for another it will help attract new players. New players love to see a roadmap for Early Access games and it helps encourage them to part with cash for EA titles. I know when I am on the fence about buying an EA game - especially one with only average reviews like this - a roadmap is often what makes me take the plunge. Or perhaps more accurately, the lack of one makes me pass.
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It does exist and there is a public version. It is called the kickstarter goals and stretch goals. Please don't feel obligated to stick with us. If you aren't having fun go play a game that is fun for you. You can always re-install and try it out once it is done. Bandits have been listed on the public version of the roadmap available for viewing now for 6 years so I'm flabbergasted you even bought the game in the first place given your policy.

btw-- this current version that you personally dislike so much is the most popular version yet with much better than average ratings and so far great staying power. It seems people keep playing week after week.

 
You come across as really bitter here. I don't see what a call for transparency and communication as a bulwark against unneeded drama has to do with sacred cows. The messianic exaggeration is likewise totally uncalled for. I used the term worshipped figuratively in an attempt to communicate how valued Bex is by the community, not for you to take it to the level of the absurd.
This is exactly why a Community Manager would be helpful. To diffuse this atmosphere between TFP employees and players that is condescending at best and toxic at worst and to let people focus on the jobs they're actually there for - to keep the devs developing and the mods keeping the forums clean.
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Not bitter at all :) My comment about sacred cows was due to your reaction to my joke about community managers sugar coating the truth to make it easier to swallow and not about your original use of the word worship. You went into triggered defense mode of this person and that is why I brought it up. A sacred cow is an expression to describe an idea or a person that is too beloved for someone to be able to stand for it or them to be mocked. This Bex figure means nothing to me but obviously is important to you.

I'm not against a community manager. It would be great to have someone create prepared statements and explanations and say, "I don't know but I'll check with the team and get back to you" a lot. Sounds like Clare used to. She was great at doing what you describe. Maybe I should put a What Would Clare Do sticky note on my computer screen. I'll try it for a week and see if it sticks. ;)

 
Why did you think it was such a bad idea?
And please explain WHY it seems TFP are so resistant to criticism. And dont deflect with the usual "No they arent they take criticism head on and apply where applicable" responses. Your reasons for why a roadmap is not posted or why experimental branches are not often posted up is because of the backlash they would get from changes.

That is literally a part of Early Access. So Pimps want the privacy of a closed beta with the benefits of selling copies in Early Access? And if a section of people do not like a particular thing then well take your ball and go home?

If anything some of the responses made here by officials and higher ups only prove why we need a community manager like a Bex. You guys sit around and circle jerk about how great you are to your players, and how open devs are to peoples opinions. But look around you. Look at devs from dozens of other games. And I am not talking AAA because Pimps are NOT AAA they are as indie as other EA teams on Steam etc. Look at Factorio, Zomboid etc. Those devs have WEEKLY newsletters detailing changes and builds, they interact on multiple platforms including reddit and discord and GASP steam too.

But whenever an unpopular opinion comes up all we get as a community is 'you better be lucky we interact" or "thats it im going dark see you"

WTF is that? You're not Rockstar Games. Stop treating your community like they need to worship everything lest we be punished with cut off communications. Its the exact opposite of good PR. All it creates is more hostility.

And if its decided they no longer wish to communicate due to community reaction thats ok, it IS their choice. But those same people will remember that when the next game comes out, just like they will remember that what they bought into is slowly turning into not what it was at first. That leaves a taste, and people remember. Who is to say they announce a western zombie game and then 5 years later it turns into a space bounty hunter game on a whim? Its a realistic possibility since the base game has undergone a complete facelift from what people bought into years ago.

You do things like ask for evidence or say prove it and when people do that you brush it off as out of context. It is not out of context. Hes an owner, stating he regrets the direction they took. Who is making decisions to this day to streamline mechanics. It is VERY relevant how he feels here.
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We probably could do better in that regard. I'll bring it up with the team and get back to you.

 
btw-- this current version that you personally dislike so much is the most popular version yet with much better than average ratings and so far great staying power. It seems people keep playing week after week.
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Madmole wants to put in a version that has static terrain. He knows it's going to perform better. In some future alpha where this is placed, an alpha that will have more sales than the current one because that's the trend, a crap ton of people running potatoes are going to be playing that mode. In turn, madmole will say, see... I told you, people like this better. Look how popular this alpha is with record 50k playing at the moment. We are are just going to move into that now and we'll bring voxels back some day when we figure out how to improve the performance.

... like has happened with several things. Caves, textures removed from paint, some terrain blocks removed, zombies with variety, world zombie counts, wandering horde sizes, probably more. I'm sure others could list a lot more. All these things were to be brought back some day. A year or two later, when half of the people playing the affected alphas have moved on, and those few remaining loyal fans bring up these features, it's time to mention that things will not be coming back. Sorry, not on the roadmap.

 
Madmole wants to put in a version that has static terrain. He knows it's going to perform better. In some future alpha where this is placed, an alpha that will have more sales than the current one because that's the trend, a crap ton of people running potatoes are going to be playing that mode. In turn, madmole will say, see... I told you, people like this better. Look how popular this alpha is with record 50k playing at the moment. We are are just going to move into that now and we'll bring voxels back some day when we figure out how to improve the performance.
... like has happened with several things. Caves, textures removed from paint, some terrain blocks removed, zombies with variety, world zombie counts, wandering horde sizes, probably more. I'm sure others could list a lot more. All these things were to be brought back some day. A year or two later, when half of the people playing the affected alphas have moved on, and those few remaining loyal fans bring up these features, it's time to mention that things will not be coming back. Sorry, not on the roadmap.
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That’s an interesting bit of speculation. I’ll talk to the team and see what they say. Thanks for your feedback. It tells us that there is some worry about the future of voxels so I’ll see what I can report about that after I get the the word from the guys.

EDIT: To get back to you on this after texting Rick and Joel I can assure you that Voxel technology for the game is going nowhere. Both Rick and Joel stated that it would be crazy to change something that significant at this point. They are fully committed to voxels and in fact have just completed another overhaul to the random world generation for A18 which shows that commitment. Even if they personally feel at times frustrated by the difficulty voxels present, they will not abandon them.

 
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