PC A17 Thoughts: The Level 20 Gate.

[beHypE]

Beyond this the game needs to be balanced for a single player, if everyone always maxes out INT because its the only way to craft items... wheres the choice?
Specialisations are all well and good (honestly not a fan, they do way more to remove replayabilty from the game than add to it for me, dont like grinding XP/levels and thats not going to change) but if they make the game less fun for a single player then thats no good.

Yep I agree. I'm pretty sure crafting/recipe perks should be obtained in a different way, like books, quests, and even things like science stations you could find in the world by scavenging. It would have the added benefit of incentivizing looting.

Making them obtainable by global experience just like the rest of the skills is bad design, because they focus on totally different aspects of the game. All the other perks solely develop your character's physique and body, and while powerful they are pretty much optional and only add "bonuses". Intelligence needs to be treated differently because its perks aren't just multiplieres stacking on top of each other, but are truly perks in the strict sense of the word, where you either unlock it fully or you don't.

Knowledge will always be more important than doing X% more damage or having X% less stamina drain, and as such will be the go-to branch for most playthroughs unless the player decides that he wants to have an unorthodox gamestyle this time around.

 

[SylenThunder]

Beyond this the game needs to be balanced for a single player, if everyone always maxes out INT because its the only way to craft items... wheres the choice?
Specialisations are all well and good (honestly not a fan, they do way more to remove replayabilty from the game than add to it for me, dont like grinding XP/levels and thats not going to change) but if they make the game less fun for a single player then thats no good.

On a similar note, you can max out all the perks well before hitting the max level, so where's the choice? There isn't one other than what to level up first. In the end, you will still be the supreme master of all.

IMHO, the biggest issue is people not wanting to be tied behind slower progression because the earlier versions have allowed you to be god-like by level 100. TFP is taking that away to extend the gameplay and balance things out more.

Which makes perfect sense.

 

[WolfyBlah]

On a similar note, you can max out all the perks well before hitting the max level, so where's the choice? There isn't one other than what to level up first. In the end, you will still be the supreme master of all.
IMHO, the biggest issue is people not wanting to be tied behind slower progression because the earlier versions have allowed you to be god-like by level 100. TFP is taking that away to extend the gameplay and balance things out more.

Which makes perfect sense.

Going to have to disagree wih you on that last part, that might be the reason for some people but it sure as hell aint mine. The reason I dont want to be tied behind a slow progression system is its just not fun, i dont enjoy forced RPG elements in what was the best building sandbox out there (well maybe not best, SI is a great feature but we lack a lot of logic/moving parts like rotors/pistons in space engineers ect)

 

[R0bb0b]

On a similar note, you can max out all the perks well before hitting the max level, so where's the choice? There isn't one other than what to level up first. In the end, you will still be the supreme master of all.
IMHO, the biggest issue is people not wanting to be tied behind slower progression because the earlier versions have allowed you to be god-like by level 100. TFP is taking that away to extend the gameplay and balance things out more.

Which makes perfect sense.

Going to have to disagree wih you on that last part, that might be the reason for some people but it sure as hell aint mine. The reason I dont want to be tied behind a slow progression system is its just not fun, i dont enjoy forced RPG elements in what was the best building sandbox out there (well maybe not best, SI is a great feature but we lack a lot of logic/moving parts like rotors/pistons in space engineers ect)

I will second that and add to it the fact that gating a path behind a level prevents player specialization.

 

[Tin]

On a similar note, you can max out all the perks well before hitting the max level, so where's the choice? There isn't one other than what to level up first. In the end, you will still be the supreme master of all.
IMHO, the biggest issue is people not wanting to be tied behind slower progression because the earlier versions have allowed you to be god-like by level 100. TFP is taking that away to extend the gameplay and balance things out more.

Which makes perfect sense.

I didn't really, hate it or like it, but thought it was a bit constricting with how it was implemented initially. My issue with it was, the gating of the system twice. Once through levels, then again through the attribute requirements. Pick one and go with it. Either one of the gates could be adjusted to extend the progression pace on their own.

 

[HungryZombie]

But now the higher level tools only allow for more mods, the level of the tool doesn't define the amount of damage to block/zombie. That is defined by the skills that you have unlocked.So the removal of level gates will mean sure you can get high level tools and weapons, but they will be just as useless unless you have the perks to effectively use them.

If this is true then why were people so against the level gate?

 

[WolfyBlah]

If this is true then why were people so against the level gate?

Because the two are completely unrelated issues? Level gating stops you from being able to craft XYZ item, item quality being simplified (honestly its irrelevent beyond durabilty as i will be removing the weapon mods from my game, most of them are lame with a few of them being outright retarded (dyes giving increased damage? Seriously?) Even the ones that make some degree of sense (adding nails to a club) should just be crafting recipes. Nails + club = club with nails instead of 'nah you cant craft your own nailed club unless you loot this specific 'mod' even if you have a million nails and 50 clubs in your inventory'.

 

[Whorhay]

Removing the gates would make the magazines relevant

Too late, the magazines were made irrelevant by their very mechanics. The only ones worth even considering using are a couple Int related magazines where you only need the skill for a few minutes while you slap together a vehicle or craft tools. And even in that one niche way all they do is save you a single skill point that you're probably going to have to buy anyways. Many people outright scrap them for the paper and most of the rest keep them to sell to the trader. So how exactly does removing the arbitrary level gates make the magazines any less relevant than they already are.

 

[Severalboxes]

Too late, the magazines were made irrelevant by their very mechanics. The only ones worth even considering using are a couple Int related magazines where you only need the skill for a few minutes while you slap together a vehicle or craft tools. And even in that one niche way all they do is save you a single skill point that you're probably going to have to buy anyways. Many people outright scrap them for the paper and most of the rest keep them to sell to the trader. So how exactly does removing the arbitrary level gates make the magazines any less relevant than they already are.

Relevant since the benefit isn't locked behind a level gate. Being useful will still require some balancing.

 

[suicidalhamster]

On a similar note, you can max out all the perks well before hitting the max level, so where's the choice? There isn't one other than what to level up first. In the end, you will still be the supreme master of all.
IMHO, the biggest issue is people not wanting to be tied behind slower progression because the earlier versions have allowed you to be god-like by level 100. TFP is taking that away to extend the gameplay and balance things out more.

Which makes perfect sense.

couple of things...

first, if TFP want to do specialization then they first need to define what is the "core" abilities. these are what everyone can have access to and would be considered a "balanced" or "general" spec. a balanced spec should allow players to be able to play the game and not feel restricted. after that, they could add additional tiers into each of the attributes. if they were to make the current game as is the "core" and available to everyone, they would simply need to add tiers 6 and 7 to each of the Strength, Agility, etc attributes and add enough skill points to be able to fully spec into 1 or 2 attributes. this gives someone who has chosen Strength as their specialty some extra, "special" skills that no one else can get unless you specialize. making the 6th and 7th tiers a bit harder to achieve extends the life of the game and provides the players with something to achieve. the balanced spec should be jack of all trades and master of none.

second, my issue with the progression system up to level 20 has been that it feels artificial. its like having weights tied to you and then suddenly at level 20, they are taken off. this feeling has less to do with the fact everything is gated past 20 and more to do with the fact there is not many meaningful things to achieve under level 20. you cant craft efficiently, you cant mine efficiently, you cant do mods or weapons, etc, etc. if rushing means getting to the point where i can start having more options available to me, then i guess i am a rusher. i have found though, that once i reach level 20-30, i wasnt "level-watching" at all. i had enough to do at that point that i was leveling before i ran out of things to do. before level 20, the opposite is true.

 

[lumpoycustards]

Take the forge as an example and ignore that you can find them throughout the world.

Everyone wants a forge and will get one as soon as practical.

Do you let people have it early and discard the whole early game? Most people would say no.

So to have a sense of progress we need to restrict it somehow.

We can make the cost high, which forces people to grind resources and discourages spending them until post-forge. Not ideal.

We can make the experience requirement high, which forces people to grind zombies currently. Not perfect but as XP is balanced the "grinding zombies" method will change into "playing the game".

To promote player choice, it should also be possible to prioritise the forge at the expense of other things. Note these downsides need to really hurt (ie skip pack mule and stamina perks to get it a few days earlier). I understand this is frustrating but without a strong downside it's not a meaningful decision. I hope this is where they are heading currently.

 

[Feycat]

I actually like the level 20 gate.

It's the later ones that tick me off.

 

[Aldranon]

Eliminated for attributes. Some perks may be gated as balancing continues.

Yup, it only took removing the gates one time to realize that some perks HAVE to be gated by a 100 level gate (or something else extraordinary).

A player can become... so strong, its not even a challenge until you're facing a lot of Rad zombies and dire situations from the death trap POI's. Then its very fun!

 

[Davy Crockett]

Take the forge as an example and ignore that you can find them throughout the world.Everyone wants a forge and will get one as soon as practical.

Do you let people have it early and discard the whole early game? Most people would say no.

So to have a sense of progress we need to restrict it somehow.

They could also add something inbetween stone axe and iron tools, like the scrap iron tools you see in some mods.

 

[Kage848]

They could also add something inbetween stone axe and iron tools, like the scrap iron tools you see in some mods.

Game has needed a bridge between stone tools and iron tools for a while now. Scrap iron tools would be a great fit.

 

[WolfyBlah]

Take the forge as an example and ignore that you can find them throughout the world.Everyone wants a forge and will get one as soon as practical.

Do you let people have it early and discard the whole early game? Most people would say no.

So to have a sense of progress we need to restrict it somehow.

We can make the cost high, which forces people to grind resources and discourages spending them until post-forge. Not ideal.

We can make the experience requirement high, which forces people to grind zombies currently. Not perfect but as XP is balanced the "grinding zombies" method will change into "playing the game".

To promote player choice, it should also be possible to prioritise the forge at the expense of other things. Note these downsides need to really hurt (ie skip pack mule and stamina perks to get it a few days earlier). I understand this is frustrating but without a strong downside it's not a meaningful decision. I hope this is where they are heading currently.

Going to have disagree with you here, no matter how XP is balanced people will power level to get a forge (be it killing 1000 zombies or digging 1000 blocks) because... well playing the game without a forge is just not fun, the stone tools suck.

Going to have to throw in the discussion on scrap iron tools too: please god no. We dont need more tiers of tools, we didnt need steel tools (in fact all they added to the game was more grind).

Im still of the opinon that no crafting recipe should be gated beyond the materials/workstation to craft it, why does crafting somthing have to be double or triple gated behind more mechanics? Why do we even have crafting recipes for stuff, if they are gated by XP then by the time you grind past that the material costs are irrelevant anyway...

 

[Davy Crockett]

Going to have to throw in the discussion on scrap iron tools too: please god no. We dont need more tiers of tools, we didnt need steel tools (in fact all they added to the game was more grind).

I've only been playing since A16; how did steel tools add more grind and why would scrap iron tools do the same?

 

[WolfyBlah]

I've only been playing since A16; how did steel tools add more grind and why would scrap iron tools do the same?

If you add more tiers of tools then the lower tiers get weaker, and thus it takes longer to break blocks/whatever else until you get the top tier tools.

For reference the steel tools at maxed out skills are slower and less effective than the iron tools we used to have.

In a15 a maxed out pickaxe could one hit stone voxels and then it was balanced to always take a minimum of two (thanks gazz)

Things like this are for nothing more than slowing the game down and making it a grind.

 

[Kage848]

If you add more tiers of tools then the lower tiers get weaker, and thus it takes longer to break blocks/whatever else until you get the top tier tools.For reference the steel tools at maxed out skills are slower and less effective than the iron tools we used to have.

In a15 a maxed out pickaxe could one hit stone voxels and then it was balanced to always take a minimum of two (thanks gazz)

Things like this are for nothing more than slowing the game down and making it a grind.

Well yea, if all they do is add scrap tools and in turn simply nerf stone tools that would be lame. But if stone tools do 10 damage and iron does 15 damage then why not add scrap tools that do 12 damage? Just using random numbers.

Scrap tools would add a lot. They would add progression. And that's a big deal. Instead of just stretching out gameplay that's already there, gating tools by levels, I'd love to see them add new gameplay, new tool sets. Both early game stuff but ones new and fresh and the other is stuff we have had for years and now just have to wait longer to get.

 

[WolfyBlah]

Well yea, if all they do is add scrap tools and in turn simply nerf stone tools that would be lame. But if stone tools do 10 damage and iron does 15 damage then why not add scrap tools that do 12 damage? Just using random numbers.
Scrap tools would add a lot. They would add progression. And that's a big deal. Instead of just stretching out gameplay that's already there, gating tools by levels, I'd love to see them add new gameplay, new tool sets. Both early game stuff but ones new and fresh and the other is stuff we have had for years and now just have to wait longer to get.

Going to have to disagree kage, i get what you are saying but just adding yet another catagory of tools isnt adding progression or more content, its a lazy solution that just adds a redudant set of items to the game (we have lost SO much in terms of building blocks, crafting complexity, id say the older crafting systems had much more depth... so we can no longer have complicated crafting but can have an extra set of tools that do the same thing as all the other tools just weaker...)

Regardless of how its balanced it really does add nothing to the than a reskined version of the iron tools with less damage.

To be frank im still going to skip over the weaker tools (stone + iron) regardless because they suck and its not fun hitting a block over and over.