PC A17 Pointless base building

[Roland]

@OP: Thanks for the detailed testing and feedback. What difficulty level were you on? Was it default? Also did you have it on 8 zombies or was it higher?

If you wouldn’t mind I’d be interested in you testing one of those bases at Adventurer and/or Scavenger difficulty and see how it goes. I’m wondering if perhaps Nomad should be described as normal difficulty for recommended 2-4 players and maybe Adventurer should be the new normal for solo play. I’d like to see if you could defend one of those bases you described as a solo player at the slightly reduced difficulty.

 

[Roland]

As long as they actually do intend to fix it, because all the responses I've seen so far from Roland and Madmole have boiled down to "git gud".is possible.

Cant speak for Madmole but I’ve been consistently saying that the Fun Pimps were not going to revise their design based on the first 3 days of kneejerk reactions to something new. Experimental is 3-5 weeks during which time they will experiment and make changes and work on balance. The changes you want MAY happen or at least a compromise but they aren’t going to be on demand. For that you’ll have to mod it yourself.

 

[RestInPieces]

Show me the money, my friend. Our valiant OP erected some pretty formidable defenses that got melted in seconds, so unless you are cheesing the AI in some novel way I find it hard to imagine how this is possible. Or perhaps "adaptation" quite literally means cheating?

I will when I get to play enough, but if you search the forums some people already have.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that's what I did. I had a defensive bunker which was 5 X 5 blocks with a shooting platform on top, with spikes around it. A wandering horde (not Blood Moon) ran up next to my bunker in the middle of the night and tunnelled down through 30 blocks of dirt to where I was. I got out and sealed the whole shaft off fast.
I'm only going to build above ground now, and I will keep all my crafting stations and loot stores well away from my defensive/overnight base.

Nor am I going to be mining for ores underground now - too dangerous. Boulders FTW.

Make one or more clear/open entrances on the surface leading to a wide defensive bunker underground. Build your personal quarters under that bunker so that it covers them. The AI should prefer pathing to you via a clear way. If any zombies hear you while in your personal quarters, they will enter the bunker where you will have traps etc, but do not completely block their way to you. Go up and defend in that bunker. Use a motion sensor to make your life easier.

Gist is, make clear pathways and try to control their pathing so that they don't dig. Haven't had the time to try that in action yet but it should be working well.

 

[Kattla]

Show me the money, my friend. Our valiant OP erected some pretty formidable defenses that got melted in seconds, so unless you are cheesing the AI in some novel way I find it hard to imagine how this is possible. Or perhaps "adaptation" quite literally means cheating?

Difficult to tell what is cheating and what is not. The new AI have quite a predictable behavior,

and it is sorta easy to figure out how to trick it. Is it cheating to design something that makes use of

that knowledge, when common sense do not work?

 

[Dazrael21]

I will when I get to play enough, but if you search the forums some people already have.


Make one or more clear/open entrances on the surface leading to a wide defensive bunker underground. Build your personal quarters under that bunker so that it covers them. The AI should prefer pathing to you via a clear way. If any zombies hear you while in your personal quarters, they will enter the bunker where you will have traps etc, but do not completely block their way to you. Go up and defend in that bunker. Use a motion sensor to make your life easier.

Gist is, make clear pathways and try to control their pathing so that they don't dig. Haven't had the time to try that in action yet but it should be working well.

The short version:

1. They choose to dig too readily - digging through 30 layers of solid earth and rock is preferable to the AI than going through just two scrap and wood walls to reach an open shaft.

2. They dig too quickly. It took me ages to dig that deep with pick and shovel. They did it in in seconds with their bare hands.

3. Wandering hordes can see you through a lot of earth & rock. I would be happy if this privilege was exclusive to the Blood Moon horde.

The meandering long version:

This was a random horde that turned up while I was building those personal quarters, not a horde I saw coming and I could have prepared for by going into my defenses and picking them off. They turned up while I was doing the "build your personal quarters under that bunker so that it covers them." part of your plan. When I first heard them, I went up to the bunker because I thought they were on the surface - by then, they were already underground. I couldn't see anything so I assumed the horde had wandered off. I went back down. I heard them again, and realised they were digging down to me.

The bunker is 5 X 5. I was in a 1 X 1 shaft in the dead-centre of it, about 30 blocks deep. The bunker covered it completely.

If my bunker/tower was something like 10 X 10 instead of 5 X 5, maybe they would have attacked the walls instead of digging under them. But I don't think I could build something that big (and still be as solid) by day 19/20.

The only real difference from your defensive bunker over personal quarters plan is that my "defensive bunker" is on the surface. Personally, I prefer to fight them on the surface: more options for escape & less digging. But it seems equivalent to me. If my whole base had been underground, I think they would have done the same thing - they'd run up to the first solid defenses through those clear pathways you mentioned (traps do not stop them, in case you haven't see it yet ), and then I suspect they would evade the defenses by digging further down and beneath them to get to me as I was constructing my 'personal quarters'.

NB - I'm very happy with A17 by the way, I'm just adjusting. I think I'll have a 'defensive base' and a 'crafting/storage' base that aren't too close to each other. In previous alphas, those two areas would be one base. If a horde turns up at my crafting base, I will try to move them to my defensive base, maybe by shooting them from an elevated walkway or something. Or just jumping down and kiting them

Or a sky-scraper with concentric rings of defences. I tried that a few months ago in A16 when I first heard about the digging. It worked quite well, but these new super zombies would have smashed that base

 

[Dazrael21]

Another thought I just had: Maybe I was digging too deep, assuming they couldn't see me through the many layers. Instead, I think I might try a storage room just a few layers under my defensive tower, encased in concrete and with a concrete apron at ground level.

I love this part of each Alpha - figuring out what works and what doesn't; iterating through base designs to find the most practicable and effective.

- - - Updated - - -

Difficult to tell what is cheating and what is not. The new AI have quite a predictable behavior,and it is sorta easy to figure out how to trick it. Is it cheating to design something that makes use of

that knowledge, when common sense do not work?

I know that if you start an elevated walkway to your 'shooting platform' from far enough way with a couple of jumps, they show no interest in using it. They go straight for whatever's under the platform. They can't go back too far to go forward, if you know what I mean.

 

[Scyris]

I feel you... One of the things I loved about the game (kind of ashamed to say so) is mining. I could go for hours just gathering resources and finding nitrate and coal and ♥♥♥♥… That’s gone! Made a mine… dug to floor… random zombie apparently heard me at night from the surface (Probably 40-45m from surface), dug down and brought 4-5 friends. No Auger, no heat(forge).
What!?

I get the digging down part, but how the hell did he detect/heard me?? (day 9 not even close to Horde Night)

I was complaining about this as well. The zombies are way to good at detecting the player. I've had zombies from 100m away track me down in a poi on the second floor only because I stepped on a piece of something that made a sound. I was crouched as well. It's kinda bs they are just way to good at finding you no matter what you try.

 

[Ghostlight]

2 things compound the problem...

1) Zombies get a block damage bonus if they are hitting a block that other zombies are hitting or trying to hit.

2) Their AI makes them take the "path of least damage" to the player, meaning many of them will chose the same route and thus head for the same block.

Do the math.

 

[Dazrael21]

2 things compound the problem...
1) Zombies get a block damage bonus if they are hitting a block that other zombies are hitting or trying to hit.

2) Their AI makes them take the "path of least damage" to the player, meaning many of them will chose the same route and thus head for the same block.

Do the math.

Yeah, I think it may need tuning a little. I'm not sure why (1) exists at all, as it's got no physical basis - it's like the Z's form some sort of Captain Planet gestalt entity. I had to kite the BM horde around my base to spread them out and and dilute the damage.

Irrelevant comment: is your user name a DW reference? I remember watching that story ... it was odd.

 

[Poojam]

This is Alpha 17E (<-- "E" for EXPERIMENTAL), not the real Alpha 17. But there's a lot of threads that TFP needs to fix.

Yea. I think he was noting the things that he expects to be fixed for the real Alpha 17. Ya know, providing feedback as part of the Early Access process. That sorta thing.

 

[RestInPieces]

The short version:1. They choose to dig too readily - digging through 30 layers of solid earth and rock is preferable to the AI than going through just two scrap and wood walls to reach an open shaft.

2. They dig too quickly. It took me ages to dig that deep with pick and shovel. They did it in in seconds with their bare hands.

3. Wandering hordes can see you through a lot of earth & rock. I would be happy if this privilege was exclusive to the Blood Moon horde.

The meandering long version:

This was a random horde that turned up while I was building those personal quarters, not a horde I saw coming and I could have prepared for by going into my defenses and picking them off. They turned up while I was doing the "build your personal quarters under that bunker so that it covers them." part of your plan. When I first heard them, I went up to the bunker because I thought they were on the surface - by then, they were already underground. I couldn't see anything so I assumed the horde had wandered off. I went back down. I heard them again, and realised they were digging down to me.

The bunker is 5 X 5. I was in a 1 X 1 shaft in the dead-centre of it, about 30 blocks deep. The bunker covered it completely.

If my bunker/tower was something like 10 X 10 instead of 5 X 5, maybe they would have attacked the walls instead of digging under them. But I don't think I could build something that big (and still be as solid) by day 19/20.

The only real difference from your defensive bunker over personal quarters plan is that my "defensive bunker" is on the surface. Personally, I prefer to fight them on the surface: more options for escape & less digging. But it seems equivalent to me. If my whole base had been underground, I think they would have done the same thing - they'd run up to the first solid defenses through those clear pathways you mentioned (traps do not stop them, in case you haven't see it yet ), and then I suspect they would evade the defenses by digging further down and beneath them to get to me as I was constructing my 'personal quarters'.

NB - I'm very happy with A17 by the way, I'm just adjusting. I think I'll have a 'defensive base' and a 'crafting/storage' base that aren't too close to each other. In previous alphas, those two areas would be one base. If a horde turns up at my crafting base, I will try to move them to my defensive base, maybe by shooting them from an elevated walkway or something. Or just jumping down and kiting them

Or a sky-scraper with concentric rings of defences. I tried that a few months ago in A16 when I first heard about the digging. It worked quite well, but these new super zombies would have smashed that base

It's not the only difference. Mine has a clear path.

My first hideout will be something like this applied underground with an extra bunker to defend in the end.

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?95836-Using-pathing-to-defend

 

[Randomdude]

2) Their AI makes them take the "path of least damage" to the player, meaning many of them will chose the same route and thus head for the same block.

IF (and since I can't see the code only "if") this is the way AI determines pathing, this is just bad design for "zombies".

Maybe if this is the case make traps to have a value of 0 in the equation, meaning that zombies are blind to them? Although I'm starting to think thats how they worked in A-16. It just rubs me the wrong way that they intentionally miss the traps. Then the defense is to backwards-engineer the AI and play/build to fool it?

Save that pathing code for animals or whatever "smart" entities youre gonna add later. (Like Raiders that come to ransack your chests)

 

[Dazrael21]

It's not the only difference. Mine has a clear path.
My first hideout will be something like this applied underground with an extra bunker to defend in the end.

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?95836-Using-pathing-to-defend

A completely clear path? You wouldn't have any doors or walls between you and them? Interesting approach. Have you seen how they focus their damage when they group? It's making things very interesting.

I've had a look at your experiment, and I'm building the inverted version underground in cheat mode on a new game for Saturday Night fun.

I strongly suspect they are going to dig straight down onto my head, but I'll let you know

 

[RestInPieces]

A completely clear path? You wouldn't have any doors or walls between you and them? Interesting approach. Have you seen how they focus their damage when they group? It's making things very interesting.
I've had a look at your experiment, and I'm building the inverted version underground in cheat mode on a new game for Saturday Night fun.

I strongly suspect they are going to dig straight down onto my head, but I'll let you know

Well, if they have a clear path they shouldn't dig another path. Doors are high priority blocks, so some doors in-between may not change their preferred path. They won't do much for defending though, yes.

 

[Anarath]

2 things compound the problem...
1) Zombies get a block damage bonus if they are hitting a block that other zombies are hitting or trying to hit.

2) Their AI makes them take the "path of least damage" to the player, meaning many of them will chose the same route and thus head for the same block.

Do the math.

Indeed.

In my game (solo, Nomad) I had not even 1 minute (not exaggerating) from hearing the zombie noises by a wandering horde outside my base, to them breaking in.

Thats not even enough time to make sure what is happening. You hear it, you maybe have to grab something out a chest, run there and observe the situation. But you stop observing instantly and go to repairing an already heavily damaged block. Meanwhile you need to create a new block as well. But you also need to fend off the zombies at the same time. At that point they already break in at another point around the corner you missed to check cause the time to react was too limited due to their massive damage.

In short: Intelligent zombies all going for weakest spot + cumulative damage depending on the number of zombies around = All my base belongs to them.

Can't get much easier for them to get me. Except opening the door and inviting them in right away.

 

[Doombringer101]

As long as they actually do intend to fix it, because all the responses I've seen so far from Roland and Madmole have boiled down to "git gud".
- - - Updated - - -

Show me the money, my friend. Our valiant OP erected some pretty formidable defenses that got melted in seconds, so unless you are cheesing the AI in some novel way I find it hard to imagine how this is possible. Or perhaps "adaptation" quite literally means cheating?

I have a video to prove just how easy Day 7 was with a basic horde night base.

Obviously later hordes would require more than this but it is intended to be modular so expandable easily and upgradeable etc.

Molotov's and clumping are the key, plus enough spikes.

And just disregard the fact that I MAY have set myself on fire... just once

I think they broke a total of 3 blocks of cobble, the outer wall was purely testing the Ai for funnelling etc and they did not behave how I expected so it was interesting to observe.

The base was started on the morning of Day 5.

 

[Dazrael21]

I'm afraid it doesn't work. Here's a screenie:



I was digging the end point of the stairway - the final flight, which was underneath the area shown above. There were no traps or anything else between the start and end of the path at this point. The zombie you can see wandered down the first flight of stairs from the surface, detected me directly beneath him (where I was digging out the final flight with an augur) and instead of following the completely empty corridor/stairs to get to me, he decided to dig down through cobblestone.

I tested it after taking this screenie. I got him to jump out of the hole and come towards me for a step or two. Then I ran back down the corridor and stairs until I was back underneath him. Instead of following me, he started digging down again - in fact he jumped back into his original hole and starting punching away.

I think going up may be the answer, instead of going down. Zombies can dig now, but they can't fly. Apart from the bastard vultures

 

[Dazrael21]

I have a video to prove just how easy Day 7 was with a basic horde night base.
Obviously later hordes would require more than this but it is intended to be modular so expandable easily and upgradeable etc.

Molotov's and clumping are the key, plus enough spikes.

They didn't lay a glove on me on Day 7, and if I'd been less clumsy I'd have got away without dying on Day 14 too.
My main concern is how quick they go for the digging option, and how fast they do it. I'm not going underground again until I figure something out. But I'll adapt - it's a Survival game after all

 

[Doombringer101]

I've got one too -




They didn't lay a glove on me on Day 7, and if I'd been less clumsy I'd have got away without dying on Day 14 too.
My main concern is how quick they go for the digging option, and how fast they do it. I'm not going underground again until I figure something out. But I'll adapt - it's a Survival game after all

Agreed

 

[vonstorm]

Bases are getting killed. Zombie AI is much better (not a complaint, a compliment). With equipment being level-gated, if the trader has no working equipment in the yard we have basic materials to work with and gathered with a stone axe. I think it needs to be tweaked somewhat, especially the range at which zombies see/hear you and through line of sight (outside of horde night). I hate to get to a place where we need to build a specific base because thats the one that works (see above posts). If we are going to draw out the beginning and mid game give bases a fighting chance. I like the challenge, but I also like to build my own base, not a copy of THE ONE base that the AI falls for.