PC A17 How Long Would You Wait For A Pre-Generated Map to Build?

[Jackelmyer]

Couldn't they ship experimental with a half dozen pre-generated maps?
It might possibly alleviate the rage from some folks upset with generation times should it even be an issue.

Aditionally they could be test-only maps.

If folks want to report bugs they must be using one of these maps. Change the maps for every patch to force a new save which is also a problem every patch.

Basically force the folks who wanna actually be useful to follow the testing rules and let everyone else do their thing with the consequence of having no legit ability to complain.

That was way more than i intended.

In Pimps We Trust

Later in this thread some are estimating the size of the pre-genned maps could be roughly 2gb of data. So if you want 6 pre-genned RWG style maps, you'd need to potentially download 12gb of data. Maybe they could be compressed and decompressed and copied on initial load? Buuuut... Then you may have compression errors adding to the bug lists. We'd also be adding additional "load" times for the first time launch of the game to decompress and copy the files.

There's always going to be trade offs. The most ideal is likely to further optimize the World Generation process if possible.

I think it may be better to have Maps added like mods. And give players the option to download pregenned maps. It's not an unheard of concept. Kind of old school. But still not unheard of. Whether they're "AddOn's" on console or Workshop on PC.

I think a nice feature to work on is the Server Selection in Multiplayer. Add a "Server Details" screen that allows server hosts to add in more detail about their server and what it may take to get setup. Additional URL's, etc.

This way, you can have your custom server, vanilla if you want with just a PreGenned Map, an option to post your map to the WorkShop would be great straight from 7D2D, and provide links to your Map, and if you have mods or a website dedicated to your server, you can put in links to where players need to download content from.

<shrug> Lots of options for TFP to choose from I suppose.

EDIT: "Added Like Mod's" - Do not read as "Make them mods". Simply suggesting that the maps be added to a place where people can store pre-genned maps. And also where people can download the pregenned maps as needed. Not suggesting that Pre-Genned maps turn a server into a "Modded Server".

 

[Jackelmyer]

Can someone tell me if client side you will need to wait ages too, or only the person that hosts the server has to wait?
For example let's say I make an huge 24-hour-generation map, and host the server.

New players will need to wait 24 hours? Because obviously, this is a failure and nobody will play. Not even 10 minutes of wait, no one will wait 10 minutes except hardcore gamers.

I assumed only the person generating the map has to wait, then once it's generated, players join as usual.

Btw, wouldn't it be better that the map gets generated as you join? If you join and you are 0,0, then what's the problem with inmediately joining and then as you play around 0,0 since you just started and you'll be slow, the map is generating around you. Or this would be too laggy for the player?

Hmm... I'd like to know as well. My guess is we'll have to download the entire map before playing. So in theory, you could be stuck downloading 2gb and maybe somewhere around 10gb of map data before playing (20kmx20km, maybe more than 10gb?).

As Kinyajuu said, the map is fully generated before you play. So it runs just like NAV's. Which, is actually awesome and a double edged sword I suppose. Though as a developer, I can see siding with the option to increase a roughly one time Map Generation, one time download of a map, etc, for the benefit of a better running game. Makes sense.

My biggest concern is TFP's file transfer processes. How streamlined are they? Do they manage progress well? File integrity checking at various points through the transfer to ensure the whole map isn't transferred if the first 1gb was corrupted on transfer? Is there compression enabled? How is bandwidth managed? Can I render a 7D2D server unusable by simply having 5 new players join the game and lose all of my bandwidth?

These are some of the problems that people are going to run into, especially on dedicated game server hosting sites which, I believe a lot of people use. Which, could actually end up getting TFP into hot water with these providers. Usually, I think, the providers will allow high CPU and I/O usage for a period of time. But frequent high Network Bandwidth demands can become a real problem. If a provider has 20 people subscribed to their service and they're getting 4,000-10,000 new players onto those subscribed servers, could be something like 8 terabytes to 20 terabytes of data transferred. And that's only if each player has to transfer just once. What happens if they clear their map trying to fix bugs? That's... not exactly a tiny amount of data transferred. Not gargantuan by any means. But... noticeable by an ISP type provider who likely pays close attention to where all their bandwidth is going.

 

[Jackelmyer]

One other thing. Hey Roland. I think you have at least two camps that will really skew this pull.

"How long are you willing to wait to start a new map locally on your computer for solo play or playing with a friend or two?"

"How long are you willing to wait to start a new map on your hosted server?" - Assuming that map generation is going to be a part of the Server Start Up procedure as it has been.

Hosted? Pft. Take all day. What's one more day. Provided... We're not experiencing frequent issues with map generation failing or starting out corrupted.

Playing Solo or with a few friends connecting to my machine? Um. We kinda wanted to start after work today... Sooo... <10 min would be great.

Tough to poll as a single question. Just a thought.

 

[Roland]

No. I just think you don't understand how it works which isn't your fault. There is no difference for map generation whether you play SP, MP hosted, or MP dedicated server.

The map is generated before hand. It is separate from loading your game to play. You go into the main menu and select map generator and it doesn't care how you intend to use that map. It just generates it and names it so as to hide the actual seed.

THEN after the map is all done you start a game using that map and it will function exactly as Navezgane does now. Navezgane will just be one map name among many once you've taken the time to generate several maps.

So as long as you plan ahead and make the map long before you get all the guys together to play they will not experience any longer than normal load times than for a map like Navezgane. Now if you don't plan ahead and you have to generate the map while everyone is sitting and waiting for you to get your stuff together it could be a very long wait indeed depending on the size you do.

So, long story short, the poll is fine because there is just one generation and it is a separate process from loading a game to play and it doesn't care how you plan to use the map it generates.

 

[KingSlayerGM]

Hey Roland,

any news on that rumor that TFP would pregenerate a few maps to be ready when you first start the game?

 

[jdifran]

Is a map different than a saved game?

Specifically, if I want to play Dead is Dead but have a new survivor start in the same game world as a now-dead survivor, and find my previous survivor's old base and loot, is that possible?

 

[Jackelmyer]

No. I just think you don't understand how it works which isn't your fault. There is no difference for map generation whether you play SP, MP hosted, or MP dedicated server.
The map is generated before hand. It is separate from loading your game to play. You go into the main menu and select map generator and it doesn't care how you intend to use that map. It just generates it and names it so as to hide the actual seed.

THEN after the map is all done you start a game using that map and it will function exactly as Navezgane does now. Navezgane will just be one map name among many once you've taken the time to generate several maps.

So as long as you plan ahead and make the map long before you get all the guys together to play they will not experience any longer than normal load times than for a map like Navezgane. Now if you don't plan ahead and you have to generate the map while everyone is sitting and waiting for you to get your stuff together it could be a very long wait indeed depending on the size you do.

So, long story short, the poll is fine because there is just one generation and it is a separate process from loading a game to play and it doesn't care how you plan to use the map it generates.

I think my point may have been missed. I hear what you're saying. And your description of how it works matches what Kina<whatchama>u described. So I think I get it.

I was describing two scenarios though. Which, you kinda touched on as a lack of planning. But... I would say is a somewhat common use case. Which, I think these two use cases kind of make them selves evident in the current poll here.

Where people who want to up and go when they click start, be it SP or MP Hosted, aren't a small group of people. I suspect that's why you've got a roughly a third of your results showing up in the top 3 options and wanting a game start in less than 25 minutes.

A second major camp being, hosted servers. Where yeah... Take the whole day. /shrug. Likely this camp already spent more than a day looking into how they want to setup their server anyway and are probably expecting more than a few days of fiddling with the server to get it setup to open up for their users.

It's fine. Just an observation.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Is a map different than a saved game?
Specifically, if I want to play Dead is Dead but have a new survivor start in the same game world as a now-dead survivor, and find my previous survivor's old base and loot, is that possible?

Roland will have to correct me here but I think in part he helped answer this question already.

But if memory serves, a Map is what we currently have as Nav's. It's fully predefined and I believe it's copied to a new Save Game folder. So a Map and a Save Game are different. Where a map by itself is an unmodified, unplayed, collection of files. Where a Saved Game is those files + the modifications of game play.

EDIT: Note that Roland's first statement isn't in response to your question. Just noticed that could cause some confusion perhaps. May want to click into his post to read what he was responding to. But his elaboration helps clarify things.

It is separate from the game. It will be more like what the map generator that we have now is but instead of generating a map to preview the world you will be generating the world itself. So you could set it to generating on one computer and do something else on another computer. At the end of the generating you don't spawn into the world and start playing. Instead a random map named for a county other than Navezgane will appear in a list of maps with Navezgane. So instead of choosing either Navezgane or RGW in the options menu you will now select from a list of named maps that will be faux counties of Arizona. Eventually you could have a dozen or more different maps to choose from limited only by your storage capacity.
Starting a new game in random gen and generating a random gen map have been the same process, but in A17 they will be separate processes.

 

[Roland]

Once the map is made it works exactly as Navezgane does now. So to specifically answer you Jack>whatchelma>yer .... If you want to get into a map on your server moments after the update hits it will need to be Navezgane. If you want to play a random world on your server you will need to generate it first for however long that takes and THEN once the new map shows up in your list alongside Navezgane you can get going.

Personally I think that the first week of experimental is the best time to start generating maps. Throw Navezgane up for the first week since wipes will probably be necessary anyway if you are playing experimental. Once things stabilize you will have a collection of maps you can choose from for your server or person to person pickup game.

There is no rumor of preset maps shipping with A17-E. That was a suggestion voiced here on the forums and I've seen no steps towards doing this. But you never know.

As for what people will see if they join a game you started in one of these new worlds-- I repeat, it works just like Navezgane. Invited a friend into a navezane world you have a save in and what they experience doing that will be exactly the same as what they will experience in a new randomly generated map.

 

[Guppycur]

So to be clear.

There is a generate map option on the game now.

Generating a map takes serious time.

Once generated, load up by selecting its name.

This system REPLACES the old Rwg.

About right?

 

[Jedo]

Personally I think that the first week of experimental is the best time to start generating maps. Throw Navezgane up for the first week since wipes will probably be necessary anyway if you are playing experimental. Once things stabilize you will have a collection of maps you can choose from for your server or person to person pickup game.

These generated maps won't be affected by the same thing that causes us to wipe saves between builds?

 

[bloom_meister]

No. I just think you don't understand how it works which isn't your fault. There is no difference for map generation whether you play SP, MP hosted, or MP dedicated server.
The map is generated before hand. It is separate from loading your game to play. You go into the main menu and select map generator and it doesn't care how you intend to use that map. It just generates it and names it so as to hide the actual seed.

THEN after the map is all done you start a game using that map and it will function exactly as Navezgane does now. Navezgane will just be one map name among many once you've taken the time to generate several maps.

So as long as you plan ahead and make the map long before you get all the guys together to play they will not experience any longer than normal load times than for a map like Navezgane. Now if you don't plan ahead and you have to generate the map while everyone is sitting and waiting for you to get your stuff together it could be a very long wait indeed depending on the size you do.

So, long story short, the poll is fine because there is just one generation and it is a separate process from loading a game to play and it doesn't care how you plan to use the map it generates.

Roland,

Am I correct in saying that the only person that needs to wait for map generation is the person starting the game/server/map, eg a single player or a server admin? and everyone who joines after that wont need to download anything?

 

[Guppycur]

Going out on a limb, Yes.

If you look at the nav files, it makes sense.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Going out on a limb, Yes.
If you look at the nav files, it makes sense.

I don't think so. Nav's files come on installation. Everyone should have the same files.

Where a fully built Random Gen map is going to be unique. I don't see how you can avoid downloading a full Randomly Generated Map before launching the game. Especially now that the game seems to require the full map to exist prior to playing.

So for a Nav's map, all you have to download are the modifications to the map.

For a Random Gen... Gotta download the whole map I'd imagine. Would love clarification though.

 

[SylenThunder]

I don't think so. Nav's files come on installation. Everyone should have the same files.
Where a fully built Random Gen map is going to be unique. I don't see how you can avoid downloading a full Randomly Generated Map before launching the game. Especially now that the game seems to require the full map to exist prior to playing.

So for a Nav's map, all you have to download are the modifications to the map.

For a Random Gen... Gotta download the whole map I'd imagine. Would love clarification though.

Based on this sentiment, you would currently be downloading all of the explored map for an existing one now. Yet you aren't. You pull the data down as you explore. There's no reason to think a17 will behave any differently for playing on games others are hosting.

 

[HIREDGUN]

Its a one time event. I wouldn't care.

Then if regions can be regenerated quick individually to fix issues that would solve it all.

 

[Guppycur]

Nav map is actually a dtm with splat maps, and a prefab xml for poi placement. I assume we will be downloading those relatively small files, and our side will generate the .rg files from that.

Or, the server generates the .rg files and sends them to us as needed.

The latter makes more sense, so we can't edit our own maps.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Nav map is actually a dtm with splat maps, and a prefab xml for poi placement. I assume we will be downloading those relatively small files, and our side will generate the .rg files from that.
Or, the server generates the .rg files and sends them to us as needed.

The latter makes more sense, so we can't edit our own maps.

I don't think so. It's been very clearly stated that World Generation is not done on the fly as you play.

Server generated files sounds like what's been described. I'm just curious how much a new player to a map has to download before they can start playing. *shrug*

- - - Updated - - -

Based on this sentiment, you would currently be downloading all of the explored map for an existing one now. Yet you aren't. You pull the data down as you explore. There's no reason to think a17 will behave any differently for playing on games others are hosting.

I think you may have missed some key points in this conversation. A17 and pre A17 maps for RWG are not the same.

Just hoping for some additional details. But my guess is that their either too busy trying to get out the release or this is one of the challenges with fully generating a RWG map that their trying to resolve prior to A17E launch.

 

[Roland]

I’m going to say this one more time and in isolation so that it doesn’t get lost in any other point:

The new random maps will behave EXACTLY as Navezgane does now. If you want to know how they will work simply load up up Navezgane and you will experience it. Put a fresh Navezgane world on your server and see how it works for others to join up. Then you’ll know.

 

[Jackelmyer]

I’m going to say this one more time and in isolation so that it doesn’t get lost in any other point:
The new random maps will behave EXACTLY as Navezgane does now. If you want to know how they will work simply load up up Navezgane and you will experience it. Put a fresh Navezgane world on your server and see how it works for others to join up. Then you’ll know.

Whatever Roland...

That doesn't actually answer how A17 RWG works as there's still differences between what's been described as A17 Navs and A17 RWG. Most notably, only the location that generates the map will initially have the map details. Which is a stark difference to Navs.

There's been pointed questions. Would be nice if there was a more helpful and direct answer to some of them, especially if it has changes to the common quantity of data transferred as compared to A16 RWG or a Navs map.