PC A17 feedback

[Myrrah]

I posted this feedback on steam but am posting it here as well (with an addition or two) hoping there is more chance of it being seen

I have put quite a bit of time into playing a17 now. There are a lot of plus's (the vehicles! oh my word. theyare the bomb ) but the overall feel is that while it feels more streamlined-a lot of the personality has been lost.

I agree with those who say that the progression system now feels shallow. So does playing in general. The new POI'S are amazing! Creepy and scary and full of interesting design. LOVE them. But there's no reason to go into them. Loot has become standardized so that everything drops from everywhere. There's no reason to go into those amazing POI'S other than just to look at them because anything you'd find is there will be no different than you'd get from a trashbag on the street.

Crafting is just boring and not fun. It's too simplistic. You don't feel that urgency that you used to-to get your skills up to be able to make this certain thing. It feels like a side note. To give an idea of what i mean-the thing i felt the most urgency about was finding a potato seed. The end

On the loot topic-the zombies no longer dropping loot much eliminates the fun of killing zombies. I miss having to kill particular zombies, going into particular types of places to find certain items you need. Its not fun having difficulty artificially pushed on you but without any rhyme or reason for it. you can just roam around outside your base killing wandering hordes, looting random piles of this and that and never go anywhere and yet still get whatever you need because all you need is just to level. That removes the mystery and suspense and motivation for exploration and facing challenging dungeons.

So that brings me to my primary reason for typing this: I find myself just biding my time waiting for Jax to fix it with Ravenhearst. But is that fair? To the modders i mean. They get no perks for the excellent work they do to bring complexity and a feeling of satisfaction and progression to the game. So you have players just puttering around with what has become a fairly shallow game-waiting for modders who aren't even given preview copies as streamers are-to fix it and make it fun again. So if the game is designed simplistically with modding in mind to bring it complexity then the modders need to be given a lot more attention for being the ones who are actually keeping people playing.

 

[Benjiro]

On the loot topic-the zombies no longer dropping loot much eliminates the fun of killing zombies. I miss having to kill particular zombies, going into particular types of places to find certain items you need. Its not fun having difficulty artificially pushed on you but without any rhyme or reason for it.

No kidding ... I still have the feeling whenever i see a hazmat zombie or a soldier zombie. Loooooot ... as you run towards them only to realize that they can not be looted anymore.

It even feels safer to game now because you are not with your nose looking down looting Zombies. Now it is a 0.1 second scan, no loot bag, and your back with full field of view.

Before you looked down, waited for opening the Zombie pinata and see what you got. If you had several zombies down, you spend even more time looking down = more change for a zombie to sneak up. It felt more adrenaline like. And you always got more of a kick, being scared from zombies turning into gore blocks and slowing you down when you hear a zombie sneaking up.

The changes may have improved performance ( not really seeing that performance increase ) but the whole change has really made the game easier to bash zombie XP pinatas now.

So if the game is designed simplistically with modding in mind to bring it complexity then the modders need to be given a lot more attention for being the ones who are actually keeping people playing.

The problem with that statement is, a lot of old system have been scrapped out of the mod-ability. Experience from using is totally destroyed currently and moders have not found any way to bring it back. Let alone a lot of other changes... The old Wellness system is also dead, too much has been changed to reintroduce this and it will need a lot of hacking around to change the new system.

Now trow in the issue, that every release breaks every mod. So 17.1, 17.2, 17.x all break the mods because every change needs to be undone and re-verified. Its a drain on the mod developers to keep doing this. The game may be mod-able but its not sustained mod-able if you understand my meaning.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

+1 for both of you

 

[RestInPieces]

In general I am very happy with the A17 changes, in comparison to A16, especially because their intentions have been made clearer - that they want to make this an engaging survival/TD/etc game, as they initially advertized, instead of a sandbox. They surely haven't thought many things through though. I won't mention the detailed reasons I am happy with the update for the 100th time here, I'll just respond on some of your points.

-It's no wonder many complain about the level system /level gates. Even if I preferred the old system concept-wise, I was receptive of this system as well. But it's like they haven't thought this through very well before they implemented it, for reasons I've also posted countless times, like for example it almost seems like they didn't expect what effect the level gates combined with recipe perks and zombie xp would have.

-Forget the old zombie loot. Too many downsides. Infinite zombies => infinite loot delivered to your door => scavenging trivialized. Was obviously a bad idea from the very start. As zombie xp was.

-What you call "fun killing zombies" - a LOT of people consider it as a "grind killing zombies". And it's natural that they do. Objectively, combat is not the game's strong point. Anyone not living under a rock can realize that. They shouldn't capitalize on it. Furthermore they shouldn't promote it - it is not a pure RPG/H&S/Shooter with a sole focus on combat. Zombies should be obstacles - not fun/loot/xp pinatas.

It even feels safer to game now because you are not with your nose looking down looting Zombies. Now it is a 0.1 second scan, no loot bag, and your back with full field of view.

Not sure if this is trolling or you actually trying to present a serious argument for more zombie loot.

(Zombies getting up randomly should be a thing - it's just not relevant with zombie loot.)

 

[Myrrah]

The problem with that statement is, a lot of old system have been scrapped out of the mod-ability. Experience from using is totally destroyed currently and moders have not found any way to bring it back. Let alone a lot of other changes... The old Wellness system is also dead, too much has been changed to reintroduce this and it will need a lot of hacking around to change the new system.

Now trow in the issue, that every release breaks every mod. So 17.1, 17.2, 17.x all break the mods because every change needs to be undone and re-verified. Its a drain on the mod developers to keep doing this. The game may be mod-able but its not sustained mod-able if you understand my meaning.

i would imagine that they (modders) are expecting any mods made for each unstable build to only work temporarily until A17 is stable. If it is NOT built for ease of modding though, then quite a lot needs to be done to make the game as fun and engaging as the modders make it. If they DO intend for it to be modded, then the modders are doing at least some of their work for them and should be rewarded accordingly (both in a design that can be modded easily and with some kind of bonus system)

In general I am very happy with the A17 changes, in comparison to A16, especially because their intentions have been made clearer - that they want to make this an engaging survival/TD/etc game, as they initially advertized, instead of a sandbox. They surely haven't thought many things through though. I won't mention the detailed reasons I am happy with the update for the 100th time here, I'll just respond on some of your points.
-It's no wonder many complain about the level system /level gates. Even if I preferred the old system concept-wise, I was receptive of this system as well. But it's like they haven't thought this through very well before they implemented it, for reasons I've also posted countless times, like for example it almost seems like they didn't expect what effect the level gates combined with recipe perks and zombie xp would have.

-Forget the old zombie loot. Too many downsides. Infinite zombies => infinite loot delivered to your door => scavenging trivialized. Was obviously a bad idea from the very start. As zombie xp was.

-What you call "fun killing zombies" - a LOT of people consider it as a "grind killing zombies". And it's natural that they do. Objectively, combat is not the game's strong point. Anyone not living under a rock can realize that. They shouldn't capitalize on it. Furthermore they shouldn't promote it - it is not a pure RPG/H&S/Shooter with a sole focus on combat. Zombies should be obstacles - not fun/loot/xp pinatas.

Not sure if this is trolling or you actually trying to present a serious argument for more zombie loot.

(Zombies getting up randomly should be a thing - it's just not relevant with zombie loot.)

Well-my point was-that it SHOULDN'T just wander up to your door. (or be scattered completely randomly in any and every container). Specific zombies with specific loot should only be found in specific places-encouraging you to GO to those places to get what they drop. I want to feel that combination of dread and anticipation as i prep to go into some challenging POI in order to get this certain item i need. I had no problem with random hordes and mobs having just basic crafting mats etc. Cellphones that can be scrapped, and all the stuff that a zombie might reasonably still have from when their human self died. Their clothes, etc.

 

[RestInPieces]

Well-my point was-that it SHOULDN'T just wander up to your door. (or be scattered completely randomly in any and every container). Specific zombies with specific loot should only be found in specific places-encouraging you to GO to those places to get what they drop. I want to feel that combination of dread and anticipation as i prep to go into some challenging POI in order to get this certain item i need. I had no problem with random hordes and mobs having just basic crafting mats etc. Cellphones that can be scrapped, and all the stuff that a zombie might reasonably still have from when their human self died. Their clothes, etc.

Specific zombies already have their own loot lists, except if anything has changed on that front that I am not aware of. However, due to how zombie spawning and respawning works, zombies being infinite and an uncontrollable source of loot, loot can't be as it was before. It must be rarer as it is now, in the base game that is - i.e. even if they put zombie soldiers only at certain POIs and remove them from any other spawn, they can't be giving you ammo/weapons/military fiber/etc everytime you kill them, but only have a chance to give you those things.

And as for POI loot, loot lists are definitely all over the place atm.

 

[HerrKingsley]

Well-my point was-that it SHOULDN'T just wander up to your door. (or be scattered completely randomly in any and every container). Specific zombies with specific loot should only be found in specific places-encouraging you to GO to those places to get what they drop. I want to feel that combination of dread and anticipation as i prep to go into some challenging POI in order to get this certain item i need. I had no problem with random hordes and mobs having just basic crafting mats etc. Cellphones that can be scrapped, and all the stuff that a zombie might reasonably still have from when their human self died. Their clothes, etc.

+1 this

 

[Myrrah]

Specific zombies already have their own loot lists, except if anything has changed on that front that I am not aware of. However, due to how zombie spawning and respawning works, zombies being infinite and an uncontrollable source of loot, loot can't be as it was before. It must be rarer as it is now, in the base game that is - i.e. even if they put zombie soldiers only at certain POIs and remove them from any other spawn, they can't be giving you ammo/weapons/etc everytime you kill them.

In most games-it is just the chance to get those items from those mobs. You might also just get things to scrap or sell. "vendor trash". Its that chance that makes it fun to go kill them. You might get that super awesome _____

 

[Randomdude]

It must be rarer as it is now, in the base game that is - i.e. even if they put zombie soldiers only at certain POIs and remove them from any other spawn, they can't be giving you ammo/weapons/military fiber/etc everytime you kill them, but only have a chance to give you those things.

They really don't have to drop loot every time but I do see and agree with OP's point. Maybe "special" zombies should get a better % chance to drop loot (not 100% maybe a 20%). Miners drop miners hat, cops shotguns, soldiers drop armor/rocket launchers, etc. Right now it feels like dropped loot from zombies is super rare (as it should be) but some tougher fights deserve some kind of reward (not just 700 XP).

 

[HerrKingsley]

Specific zombies already have their own loot lists, except if anything has changed on that front that I am not aware of. However, due to how zombie spawning and respawning works, zombies being infinite and an uncontrollable source of loot, loot can't be as it was before. It must be rarer as it is now, in the base game that is - i.e. even if they put zombie soldiers only at certain POIs and remove them from any other spawn, they can't be giving you ammo/weapons/military fiber/etc everytime you kill them, but only have a chance to give you those things.
And as for POI loot, loot lists are definitely all over the place atm.

As for now there are only three LootDropEntityClass, regular, strong and boss.

But technically you can make a military zombie to be the only one who drops ak-47, sniper and smg

 

[Ghostlight]

In A16, 99% of the loot dropped was garbage. In A17 they removed the garbage. Zombies that had the good loot still drop that loot as a golden bag, so you didn't lose any "real" loot, though Bones have became a problem because of this change.

However...

I know why they removed the garbage loot now. It used to be basic crap like perhaps Oil, Glue and the like. Well in A17 it turns out that by level 100-odd (day 30 for me), you will have EVERYTHING (because everything is craftable now), and at top level to boot because of the Perks and Mod system. There is really no reason to explore or loot in A17 once you are there (and 'there' comes very fast indeed, the player's progression to "endgame firepower" is much quicker in A17 than any alpha before it). Removing zombie loot means I have to at least go out and get Bones and crap like that. Fantastic end-game huh?

 

[RestInPieces]

As for now there are only three LootDropEntityClass, regular, strong and boss.But technically you can make a military zombie to be the only one who drops ak-47, sniper and smg

I see. Unfortunately didn't have time to look into it because of work. If that's the case, it's a shame that loot lists are like that. As for the rarity, replying below.

They really don't have to drop loot every time but I do see and agree with OP's point. Maybe "special" zombies should get a better % chance to drop loot (not 100% maybe a 20%). Miners drop miners hat, cops shotguns, soldiers drop armor/rocket launchers, etc. Right now it feels like dropped loot from zombies is super rare (as it should be) but some tougher fights deserve some kind of reward (not just 700 XP).

A 20% chance with a potentially infinite number of zombies will trivialize any of their drops. You will very soon end up with a truckload of mining helmets, armor etc. Even with a 2% chance (which is the chance atm) you will still ending up with a surplus.

I understand that this may not look like the case when you are out scavenging and killing zombies - but you have to account for the case where you kill large masses of zombies by defending or going through a few horde nights.

In general - zombies as a loot source is problematic, because it is infinite and not "controllable". Like Myrrah also said, areas/POIs should be the main source (with specific but slightly random loot lists) and zombies should be a secondary much lower source - even then, in a long-term playthrough, it's easy for them to trivialize the main source - which is the source that encourages exploring/scavenging etc. We don't want that.

 

[Benjiro]

-What you call "fun killing zombies" - a LOT of people consider it as a "grind killing zombies". And it's natural that they do. Objectively, combat is not the game's strong point. Anyone not living under a rock can realize that. They shouldn't capitalize on it. Furthermore they shouldn't promote it - it is not a pure RPG/H&S/Shooter with a sole focus on combat. Zombies should be obstacles - not fun/loot/xp pinatas.
Not sure if this is trolling or you actually trying to present a serious argument for more zombie loot.

(Zombies getting up randomly should be a thing - it's just not relevant with zombie loot.)

Not trolling at all ... Before you actually placed yourself in more danger looking for loot. Even if the loot was from crappy zombies, you still looked because you did not want to miss that good stuff. Now its so easy to spot the loot bags and you know corpses are useless.

Example before:

* Zombie drops loot = distraction.

-- Out in the street, you looked at every zombie.

-- People had a large motivation to drop from there base, to loot before you lost a lot.

-- You had motivation to look for those nice fat zombies that had better loot.

* Zombie gore blocks

-- Created a hazard for you. You look down, a zombie walks / runs towards, you, you get slowed down. Panic!

-- Source for bones! Now bones are a lot harder to find.

* Realism

-- It just feels wrong to see zombies die and you get nothing from them.

-- It feels strange seeing them drop loot bags, like some online MMORPG.

They removed a features because of supposed performance issues. Yet, a bit bigger hordes still create the same performance issues as before in A17. So that gain looks to be more minimal and does it really justify the removing off these features, with what you gain ( little ), what you lose ( a lot ).

 

[Randomdude]

I find myself just biding my time waiting for Jax to fix it with Ravenhearst.

I think it's a little early to talk about this though I have thought it myself. Sometimes I feel while playing that this is another Arma 3 situation, where someone else "gets it" better than the main developer and ends up making the game that is different that eventually ends up being the main focus (Day Z).

This IS the best building game in the market other than Minecraft and to an adult like me, this is way better. The aspect of survival in the game for me is secondary although with A16 I started looting more and got into it enough, that if I turned zombies off, I would lose all interest in the game.

The balance needed to make this "role-playing, building, first person, so many other things" game work is hard to almost impossible as you are sticking your toe in every genre. I really hope the TFP eventually "get it" and start going in a direction that is theirs, not trying to imitate another games and we the players don't have to wait for a "good" mod to make it work.

There are many things that I like about A17 and am still rooting for TFP to deliver.

 

[Myrrah]

Not trolling at all ... Before you actually placed yourself in more danger looking for loot. Even if the loot was from crappy zombies, you still looked because you did not want to miss that good stuff. Now its so easy to spot the loot bags and you know corpses are useless.
Example before:

* Zombie drops loot = distraction.

-- Out in the street, you looked at every zombie.

-- People had a large motivation to drop from there base, to loot before you lost a lot.

-- You had motivation to look for those nice fat zombies that had better loot.

* Zombie gore blocks

-- Created a hazard for you. You look down, a zombie walks / runs towards, you, you get slowed down. Panic!

-- Source for bones! Now bones are a lot harder to find.

* Realism

-- It just feels wrong to see zombies die and you get nothing from them.

-- It feels strange seeing them drop loot bags, like some online MMORPG.

They removed a features because of supposed performance issues. Yet, a bit bigger hordes still create the same performance issues as before in A17. So that gain looks to be more minimal and does it really justify the removing off these features, with what you gain ( little ), what you lose ( a lot ).

yes! (oh-and not to mention that feeling of satisfaction after horde night. Sitting back and looking at the carnage you just wrought because you are just that awesome and again-you put yourself in more danger looting alllllll those corpses in the dark. That internal scream as you get grabbed from behind and can't move very well-haha)

I think it's a little early to talk about this though I have thought it myself. Sometimes I feel while playing that this is another Arma 3 situation, where someone else "gets it" better than the main developer and ends up making the game that is different that eventually ends up being the main focus (Day Z).
This IS the best building game in the market other than Minecraft and to an adult like me, this is way better. The aspect of survival in the game for me is secondary although with A16 I started looting more and got into it enough, that if I turned zombies off, I would lose all interest in the game.

The balance needed to make this "role-playing, building, first person, so many other things" game work is hard to almost impossible as you are sticking your toe in every genre. I really hope the TFP eventually "get it" and start going in a direction that is theirs, not trying to imitate another games and we the players don't have to wait for a "good" mod to make it work.

There are many things that I like about A17 and am still rooting for TFP to deliver.

hear hear

 

[Benjiro]

Removing zombie loot means I have to at least go out and get Bones and crap like that. Fantastic end-game huh?

Hardly ... you simply buy all the duck tape at the trader with the stockpile of guns you have around. The game mechanics are horribly broken. Before i only used the trader rarely because it was more fun doing things yourself. You felt more like a survivor living off the lands. Now i feel more like a trader, checking several traders, writing down i need X from this guy and Y from this guy.

It really feels like they took the worst part of MMORPG grinds and implemented this into 7D2D. This is why i say 7D2D lost its soul. I have given up on trying out A17 any more because its so bland. Started with A16 and now its so watered down, that it lost its identify ( in my personal opinion ).

 

[RestInPieces]

Not trolling at all ... Before you actually placed yourself in more danger looking for loot. Even if the loot was from crappy zombies, you still looked because you did not want to miss that good stuff. Now its so easy to spot the loot bags and you know corpses are useless.
Example before:

* Zombie drops loot = distraction.

-- Out in the street, you looked at every zombie.

-- People had a large motivation to drop from there base, to loot before you lost a lot.

-- You had motivation to look for those nice fat zombies that had better loot.

* Zombie gore blocks

-- Created a hazard for you. You look down, a zombie walks / runs towards, you, you get slowed down. Panic!

-- Source for bones! Now bones are a lot harder to find.

* Realism

-- It just feels wrong to see zombies die and you get nothing from them.

-- It feels strange seeing them drop loot bags, like some online MMORPG.

They removed a features because of supposed performance issues. Yet, a bit bigger hordes still create the same performance issues as before in A17. So that gain looks to be more minimal and does it really justify the removing off these features, with what you gain ( little ), what you lose ( a lot ).

Distraction:

I can't really take this argument very seriously - your other arguments are good. Players spending several minutes to loot after a horde, or spending 1.2 sec to loot a zombie on the road isn't much of a way to make the game more threatening or create suspense. I get what you mean but imo it's just something that is too ineffective and isn't worth the other effects it causes to gameplay. But as I mentioned above, when it comes to loot, I'd prefer specific zombie group loot lists with a weight factor depending on the zombie type.

Gore blocks:

Agree about gore blocks. Don't know details about what performance issues they caused and I don't know whether it was worth removing them. They were a nice feature (especially compared to what we have now). Hopefully they will revisit them in the future.

Realism:

True, realism takes a hit, although in this situation, the alternative is worse for gameplay imo. Loot - even "trash" (which was not really trash most of the time), can be a game-changer if it comes from an infinite stream of zombies.

 

[SickPuppy]

Agree the progression does feel artificial at times, I also find myself just hunting zombies for the xp, which isn't all bad I do enjoy working on perking to be efficient at taking them down. I actually like the slower pace but it feels for the wrong reasons, like level gating, no xp from resources/building.

Not sure about the looting trash cans are the same as poi's. There's definitely different and better loot in some poi's, u can get day 1 weapon mods in safes if u can muster the patience to open it. Also clothing, food, tools, cooking pot are usually on found in poi's. I do like how tough the poi's are but the jump scares and high numbers gets repetitive, and don't get me started on the respawning sleepers.

Definitely prefer lootable/harvest zombies, gives more rewarding feeling after taking them down. Might get tedious late game when we have everything but fat and bones were a great early game item. I think they've said it helps performance not to have dead corpses so it's not all bad.

Overall enjoying A17, don't think I can go back to A16.

 

[Randomdude]

I think they've said it helps performance not to have dead corpses so it's not all bad.

The thing is, right now, corpses of zombies stay for like 5 seconds on screen before disappearing (current exp. version). Why not make it that if you tag them with an axe or knife they stay and transform into gore blocks like before giving us time to harvest. Make gore blocks have a timer too that after a couple more seconds gore blocks disappear unless you're harvesting them.

Seems everybody would be happy and you keep your performance up.

 

[Krougal]

i would imagine that they (modders) are expecting any mods made for each unstable build to only work temporarily until A17 is stable. If it is NOT built for ease of modding though, then quite a lot needs to be done to make the game as fun and engaging as the modders make it. If they DO intend for it to be modded, then the modders are doing at least some of their work for them and should be rewarded accordingly (both in a design that can be modded easily and with some kind of bonus system)




Well-my point was-that it SHOULDN'T just wander up to your door. (or be scattered completely randomly in any and every container). Specific zombies with specific loot should only be found in specific places-encouraging you to GO to those places to get what they drop. I want to feel that combination of dread and anticipation as i prep to go into some challenging POI in order to get this certain item i need. I had no problem with random hordes and mobs having just basic crafting mats etc. Cellphones that can be scrapped, and all the stuff that a zombie might reasonably still have from when their human self died. Their clothes, etc.

This game IS built for ease of modding; most everything is tweakable by XML config files that are pretty well documented, it isn't like you need to actually know how to program, like say Minecraft modding.

One could up the drop rates from zeds and customize the loot table for each type to make it a pretty close approximation of how it used to be.

Having to clean up gore blocks, I certainly don't miss it. It was a very time consuming chore after a horde.

I don't really get what is "trash-loot" since everything is a crafting material. There may be stuff I am not looking for at the moment and may not wish to be encumbered by, but everything is useful.

Considering mod schematics are 1 use, you are probably going to want multiples of many of them, you aren't going to find the ones you want all the time, and it seems like your best chance of finding them is going into POIs, I don't get the argument that POIs aren't worth looting either.

Maybe this is an alternate universe without cellphones. What year was the 7DTD apocalypse set anyway? Considering how rough my wife complains I can be on my clothes, zombies clothes could get unusable pretty quickly. Don't get me wrong, I like loot pinatas as much as the next guy, and I like to stay away from "but realism!" arguments in general, but gameplay comes before realism.