PC A suggestion to fix the economy: NO MORE DUKES

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Psychodabble

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This post might get a lot of hate, but I think it's really the only way to fix this constant back and forth of economy imbalance. TFP can tweak values all they want, but they'll never satisfy everyone because traders have such a major impact on the game.

The way out might be considered radical by some, but it's actually very simple: get rid of Dukes entirely.

1) A fiat currency in a post-apocalyptic setting is ridiculous in the first place. The old cash is worthless, but casino tokens have real value?! C'mon, that can't make any kind of sense to anybody. Caps make no sense in Fallout and Dukes make no sense here. At least the old cash can be burned to keep warm...

2) Sinks for Dukes are completely arbitrary/artificial. It's impossible to balance an economy that's entirely based on RNG. There are very few things in the game that a player can't perk up to supply for themselves through crafting and of the remaining things, players need to either depend on RNG or perk up just to have some way to spend all this useless money. There is literally no other way of taking money out of the economy.

3) Dukes make economy balancing for single vs. multiplayer impossible. If Dukes and traders are balanced to make a trade-centric playstyle viable for single players, they become dramatically overpowered in multiplayer and the opposite problem as well.

So what do we use as currency instead of Dukes? Easy answer...what has real value among post-apocalypitc traders? What are all the players clamoring for more of? AMMO!

We set up a hierarchy of ammo value that directly correlates to the resources/difficulty involved in crafting each ammo type. For example: 1 shell of 7.62 = 5 bullets .44 magnum = 10 bullets 9mm = 25 shotgun shells. Again, these numbers are only examples off the top of my head. Some real thought would have to go into the recipes and crafting stations needed for each ammo type and their corresponding value. We could also get the more valuable archery arrows/bolts in there somewhere, too.

The traders would offer items for sale in ammo prices and would also offer ammo exchanges at rates favorable to themselves. Traders would buy items in exchange for the ammo of the player's choice, but the best value would be in the "worst" ammunition. The same goes for quest rewards.

This would also be a balancing mechanism for the relative strengths of the various guns...sure the sniper rifle and AK are great, but 7.62 is the most valuable ammo, so it might incentivize more players to use the SMG or Magnum. A player might even choose to use the Blunderbuss so they can use all of their ammo for purchasing. It would also be important to give traders some price variance to incentivize a real trader playstyle, i.e. buying an item cheaply at one trader and selling it for a profit at another.

Gone would be the problem of players sitting on mountains of currency with nothing to use it for. Gone would be the complaints about not having a reason to explore POIs at high level. Even if the loot you find is useless to you, it sells for ammo!

Maybe TFP have some future plans to make Dukes advantageous, but I can't imagine what it would be and I certainly haven't heard anything about it. What is clear to me is that Dukes do not work very well as currently implemented. I think using ammo as currency is superior in every way.

 
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Maybe TFP have some future plans to make Dukes advantageous, but I can't imagine what it would be and I certainly haven't heard anything about it. What is clear to me is that Dukes do not work very well as currently implemented. I think using ammo as currency is superior in every way.
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Encourage questing.

Kinda make me want to scrap them into brass again.

 
1) A fiat currency in a post-apocalyptic setting is ridiculous in the first place. The old cash is worthless, but casino tokens have real value?! C'mon, that can't make any kind of sense to anybody. Caps make no sense in Fallout and Dukes make no sense here. At least the old cash can be burned to keep warm...
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You'd be surprised what things suddenly become a currency if no Fiat currency is available. In post-war Germany, cigarettes were a popular currency.

A fiat currency simplifies the conversion. How many chickens are 3 goats worth again ? Such questions are not asked with a fiat currency. You have the price for a chicken and the price for a goat. The rest is simple mathematics.

What you do with the ammo is just exactly the same as the casino tokens. Only that you make it even more complicated. Then an item has not only one price but 4 prices.

And it's not like the players would actually use the ammo. On the contrary, they would collect ammo to afford more expensive items.

That some people sit on coins is not because they get too much money from the trader but because they have everything they need and the dealer can no longer offer them what they want.

In the Alpha 16 I had a whole gun safe full of coins in the end. I only sold what the Horde brought me. I had about 20 trader that I went to once a week. I did not buy much because the traders mostly didn't have what I was looking for.

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I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?
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Coins could be melted down to brass in Alpha 14.

 
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Maybe the Duke is selling the cure for 100M tokens?

Economy-wise, the idea would be equal to having every trader equipped with an ammo vending machine with an infinite supply of all types of ammo at fixed prices (it would buy and sell at the same price). I'm not directly opposed to it, however it would make economy balancing a lot more strict; at the moment ammo is limited by "existence", the traders just don't have it. If you can obtain enough extra ammo to buy steel tools and military gear etc, then ammo consumption can't really be an issue anymore.

If ammo remains an issue, and the traders have a limited supply, you won't be able to buy anything expensive.

Would be even harder to balance than the current one. I would like the "feel" of it, but can't really support.

 
A fiat currency simplifies the conversion. How many chickens are 3 goats worth again ? Such questions are not asked with a Fiat currency. You have the price for a chicken and the price for a goat. The rest is simple mathematics.
What you do with the ammo is just exactly the same as the casino tokens. Only that you make it even more complicated. Then an item has not only one price but 4 prices.

And it's not like the players would actually use the ammo. On the contrary, they would collect ammo to afford more expensive items.

That some people sit on coins is not because they get too much money from the trader but because they have everything they need and the dealer can no longer offer them what they want.

In the Alpha 16 I had a whole gun safe full of coins in the end. I only sold what the Horde brought me. I had about 20 trader that I went to once a week. I did not buy much because the dealers mostly didn't have what I was looking for.

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Coins could be melted down to brass in Alpha 14.
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You seem to have missed the point that you CAN actually use ammo. If you choose to hoard it instead, that's on you, but at least there is something useful that you can do with it that isn't dependent on the trader having that one thing you actually need.

If you have a crap ton of ammo you are rich...OR you are well-prepared for high gamestage horde night/keeping your turrets fed. That fortune of Dukes does literally nothing for you with nothing to spend it on, but ammo ALWAYS has use within the context of the options offered by the game.

I think this is a small price to pay for a little extra math. I mean, how many classic RPGs used a multiple coin system with copper, silver, and gold? Every one that I remember. It wasn't such a big deal. Super cheap items are priced in shotgun shells, but you can just as easily use your 7.62 to buy them and get your change in 9mm. It's just an example, but it would totally work.

Also remember, you can exchange ammo for weapons you don't use at a slight loss for ammo you actually need. This is the kind of natural sink that the Duke system will never have.

 
Maybe the Duke is selling the cure for 100M tokens?
Economy-wise, the idea would be equal to having every trader equipped with an ammo vending machine with an infinite supply of all types of ammo at fixed prices (it would buy and sell at the same price). I'm not directly opposed to it, however it would make economy balancing a lot more strict; at the moment ammo is limited by "existence", the traders just don't have it. If you can obtain enough extra ammo to buy steel tools and military gear etc, then ammo consumption can't really be an issue anymore.

If ammo remains an issue, and the traders have a limited supply, you won't be able to buy anything expensive.

Would be even harder to balance than the current one. I would like the "feel" of it, but can't really support.
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So why is everybody complaining about ammo scarcity and inefficiency of high level POI looting?

Remember, the traders won't "sell" ammo anymore, but deal in exchanges. You'll get ammo for everyting you sell and then have the option of shooting it or buying other things with it. You may have to decide between that new pickaxe or having a comfortable number of rounds for the next horde.

Even if the Duke (who does not exist AFAIK...we don't even have normal bandits, much less a boss bandit) was selling the cure for 100M tokens, what the ♥♥♥♥ would he want all those tokens for?

 
So why is everybody complaining about ammo scarcity and inefficiency of high level POI looting?
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Because they aren't very good at this game or they have Rambo fantasies, maybe both. I cleaned out POIs with +5 greens in a room with nothing more than my Xbow and Sledge no problem. I only bothered using ammo on horde night until I identified it as a noob trap with no reward.

 
I believe the one and ONLY problem with economy is that economical aka barter and quest rewards perks and both locked together with all crafting perks.

These two should be completely separate, so you can either craft stuff, or get it from traders at better cost efficiency, both locked behind int will only keep creating problems and "rebalances" that screw up every single player but the one focused fully on int.

1) A fiat currency in a post-apocalyptic setting is ridiculous in the first place. The old cash is worthless, but casino tokens have real value?! C'mon, that can't make any kind of sense to anybody. Caps make no sense in Fallout and Dukes make no sense here. At least the old cash can be burned to keep warm...
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That's not how money work, even today.

How much does money in your wallet are worth?

Its just a piece of cheap metal/sheet of paper with some paint on it, its completely worthless to you if you are hungry or something as you can't eat it.

But it provides easy to interpret way to exchange goods that is hard to counterfeit.

That exact same role is provided by fallout caps, they are no longer produced, therefore they can't be counterfeit and provide easy method of storing your wealth without you having to actually claim and protect warehouse.

 
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That's not how money work, even today.

How much does money in your wallet are worth?

Its just a piece of cheap metal/sheet of paper with some paint on it, its completely worthless to you if you are hungry or something as you can't eat it.

But it provides easy to interpret way to exchange goods that is hard to counterfeit.

That exact same role is provided by fallout caps, they are no longer produced, therefore they can't be counterfeit and provide easy method of storing your wealth without you having to actually claim and protect warehouse.
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...that's what fiat currency means. By that logic, why not use the old cash?

The reasoning here is that fiat currency loses its value when no longer backed by government authority. Who cares if people counterfeit worthless items?

Only useful items would have any value after an apocalypse. If you can't use it to survive, why bother with it? Most of these items are poorly suited to use as currency, as they are hard to transport, store, count, etc. Ammunition is the clear exception to that. The different varieties are actually perfectly suited to act as denominations.

 
...that's what fiat currency means. By that logic, why not use the old cash?
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Because its less sturdy and paper or literally anything that can be small and flammable itself got other kind of value now?

The reasoning here is that fiat currency loses its value when no longer backed by government authority. Who cares if people counterfeit worthless items?
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Tell that to Venezuelan people nowadays.

Flat currency loses value when country tries to combat inflation and dept to other countries with making more money.

You don't need government to have a currency of value. Hell, in our very own past there were multiple countries/kingdoms with multiple different currencies, yet it was of no problem to use them abroad despite money exchange services literally not existing at the time.

Money has worth if its in limited quantity and everyone is made aware of its value.

Some common, but still limited object being a form of currency does make perfect sense, even in post apo setting, especially if everyone agrees about its value, government isn't needed here.

Only useful items would have any value after an apocalypse. If you can't use it to survive, why bother with it? Most of these items are poorly suited to use as currency, as they are hard to transport, store, count, etc. Ammunition is the clear exception to that. The different varieties are actually perfectly suited to act as denominations.
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And ammunition is also used in Metro franchise as a currency.

Even with barter system, there is always good to have a hard currency as well, but at the end it all boils down to the size of surviving population, sustainability of that population and ability to actually produce stuff of value, obviously if you're just a scavenger, any sort of money doesn't do much for you, but if you're established community or net of communities, barter may work on community vs community scale, on person to person it'll be either rationing if supplies are scarce or a form of free trade currency will emerge if scarcity of goods isn't a problem anymore. Now, start to see how it does resemble what we have in 7d and why it makes sense?

 
Because its less sturdy and paper or literally anything that can be small and flammable itself got other kind of value now?

Tell that to Venezuelan people nowadays.

Flat currency loses value when country tries to combat inflation and dept to other countries with making more money.

You don't need government to have a currency of value. Hell, in our very own past there were multiple countries/kingdoms with multiple different currencies, yet it was of no problem to use them abroad despite money exchange services literally not existing at the time.

Money has worth if its in limited quantity and everyone is made aware of its value.

Some common, but still limited object being a form of currency does make perfect sense, even in post apo setting, especially if everyone agrees about its value, government isn't needed here.

And ammunition is also used in Metro franchise as a currency.

Even with barter system, there is always good to have a hard currency as well, but at the end it all boils down to the size of surviving population, sustainability of that population and ability to actually produce stuff of value, obviously if you're just a scavenger, any sort of money doesn't do much for you, but if you're established community or net of communities, barter may work on community vs community scale, on person to person it'll be either rationing if supplies are scarce or a form of free trade currency will emerge if scarcity of goods isn't a problem anymore. Now, start to see how it does resemble what we have in 7d and why it makes sense?
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First, it's FIAT currency, not FLAT currency. That refers to the fact that the items themselves have little to no intrinsic value. The items of choice are essentially irrelevant, which is why Dukes make no more sense than the old cash.

In the days before fiat currency, money had durable value because it was made of precious metals. In the not so distant past, currencies like the dollar and pound were backed by actual gold and silver stored in federal depositories, as in you could take your bills and exchange them for, so-called, hard currency at any time.

The problem of inflation is directly caused by fiat currency. When you have a hard currency system, the only changes to the value of your money are tied to the value of the metal you use. You may not need a government to have a fiat currency system, but you definitely need a central authority to guarantee the enduring value of that currency. When people lose faith in that authority and it proves unable to support its fiat currency, the system collapses, much as it happened in Zimbambwe when shops refused to accept Zimbabwean Dollars and insisted on foreign cash.

I suggest you do a little research on the actual history of money.

In any case, none of that is truly relevant to the point here. What gameplay value do Dukes add to the equation?

 
In any good economy, you have a balanced set of faucets (sources of currency into the economy) and sinks (removal of currency from the economy). The way the economy of 7d2d currently functions is that there are massive faucets pumping currency into the economy. However, there are only two sinks to match the faucets and they operate at a fraction of the influx.

I think the inherent problem with the system of Traders is that they don't offer anything aside from two items that the player cannot craft eventually. Those items being solar bank and solar cells. Neither of these items do anything so special that they warrant this exclusivity. Therefore, the only sinks that present themselves at all are purely opportunity purchases during early game such as mods, building materials, food, and traps. After you've established yourself, you can create anything the trader has to offer given enough time and effort. This is where the massive inflation begins on dukes because you've got a two fold problem of there isn't anything you need to buy and there isn't anything you want to buy. Yes, need and want are two completely different concepts when we talk about spending.

My suggestion is thus if traders and dukes are a required part of the game's vision:

There has to be needed items that only the trader has access to throughout the entire progression. These items must priced at a point where tough decisions need to be made by the player to evaluate it as a need, want, or nice to have purchase. The player should constantly be hungry for more dukes and striving to maximize each purchase when they do spend them. Basically, the economy needs a massive sink overhaul.

Take for example... vehicles. What if you couldn't craft a mini-bike or 4x4 at all but instead you had to buy it from the trader? Now those dukes have purpose and the player is going to scrimp and scrutinize every expense because they are delaying themselves from traveling the world faster. While this is a big ticket item that would take some of the pressure off of the economy, ultimately, it is a band-aid as each vehicle would be a one and done purchase. For true economic balance, you need evergreen sinks that are constantly siphoning off wealth.

I'm sure this would all be met with a huge backlash from the community since most people are adamant that every item should be craftable in-game though. But that's not my problem. =)

 
In any good economy, you have a balanced set of faucets (sources of currency into the economy) and sinks (removal of currency from the economy). The way the economy of 7d2d currently functions is that there are massive faucets pumping currency into the economy. However, there are only two sinks to match the faucets and they operate at a fraction of the influx.
I think the inherent problem with the system of Traders is that they don't offer anything aside from two items that the player cannot craft eventually. Those items being solar bank and solar cells. Neither of these items do anything so special that they warrant this exclusivity. Therefore, the only sinks that present themselves at all are purely opportunity purchases during early game such as mods, building materials, food, and traps. After you've established yourself, you can create anything the trader has to offer given enough time and effort. This is where the massive inflation begins on dukes because you've got a two fold problem of there isn't anything you need to buy and there isn't anything you want to buy. Yes, need and want are two completely different concepts when we talk about spending.

My suggestion is thus if traders and dukes are a required part of the game's vision:

There has to be needed items that only the trader has access to throughout the entire progression. These items must priced at a point where tough decisions need to be made by the player to evaluate it as a need, want, or nice to have purchase. The player should constantly be hungry for more dukes and striving to maximize each purchase when they do spend them. Basically, the economy needs a massive sink overhaul.

Take for example... vehicles. What if you couldn't craft a mini-bike or 4x4 at all but instead you had to buy it from the trader? Now those dukes have purpose and the player is going to scrimp and scrutinize every expense because they are delaying themselves from traveling the world faster. While this is a big ticket item that would take some of the pressure off of the economy, ultimately, it is a band-aid as each vehicle would be a one and done purchase. For true economic balance, you need evergreen sinks that are constantly siphoning off wealth.

I'm sure this would all be met with a huge backlash from the community since most people are adamant that every item should be craftable in-game though. But that's not my problem. =)
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And that's why ammo-as-currency is the perfect solution. Gameplay would be a HUGE natural sink as guns become more and more relevant to survival at high gamestages. Additionally, the conversion of unwanted ammo types to your type of choice would provide another sink. There would also be added gameplay value as players would have the choice of resource gathering to produce their own ammo or scavenging/looting for items to sell to get ammo. Then would come the additional choice of hoarding that ammo for actual use, or spending it on needed/wanted items.

 
No, simply no.

Ammo as currency means i will become so abundant that you remove the possibility to balance the availability of ammo.

Only usable item i would accept as money and only if we get a spoilage system would be food. Pay with flour.

(and i really dont ask for that, in real Salt was a currency, and salt dont spoil)

 
Your simple solution isn't really any better.

I was legit excited to see a thread about "no more dukes" but you basically just said "make dukes be bullets"

Doesn't solve the problem (in fact it makes it worse...you're saying i can endlessly sell stone/compound bows/etc. for a limitless supply of ammo).

The solution is to get rid of dukes...and don't replace it with anything.

Use credit....use credit PER TRADER.

I give the trader X items and do Y quests, and now I have Z units of credit, which i can spend to get items. No physical anything, no doing 3 quests for trader hugh and then buying a pistol from trader jen. This means that the player will always have to establish trust/credit with an npc before getting anything. It means no walking up to someone and giving them 10,000 widgets and taking everything valuable from them.

The fact that any ITEM is used becomes pointless.

Either the item is useless, in which case why are people accepting it in return for valuable goods in an unstable, post-apocalyptic society

Or the item is useful, which just opens up rampant abuse to be able to spam acquire huge amounts of something useful (and if it is endlessly available, it's value drops and drops the more prevalent it is until its useless again). If bullets become currency, then all that will happen is that bullets will cease to be the supply bottleneck they are now, and something else will replace them.

 
You may not need a government to have a fiat currency system, but you definitely need a central authority to guarantee the enduring value of that currency.
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Psychodabble, meet the Duke. Duke, this gentleman over here is Psychodabble doubting your guarantees!

(a shot can be heard, then someone digging a grave. Cue credits to a solemn tune by Ennio Morricone)

 
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