PC A solution to the "Run away from hordes" problem.

[Menace312]

I really like the idea of the z's running, as fast or faster than, the player in total darkness.

It balances well with the player sneak ability, especially since "smells" probably wont be a thing.

But there would need to be some kind of delay, or "hysteresis" for the transitions between light/dark.

Maybe limiting this to nights only will simplify, since you wouldn't need to worry about the "sun".

But what about animations? And additional code?

I'm only a hobbyist, but it does seem like a bit of work...

 

[RipClaw]

The on/off would be an option if it wouldn´t mess with your game, things get messed up if you turn it off and on again. I tried that once because i messed up my base and didn´t want to drive around all night, gave me daily hordes after that instead of every 7 days. So not an option because it simply doesn´t work.

I've heard of bugs like that before. Sometimes the days when the Horde comes shift. Then the horde comes e.g. not on day 14 but on day 15.

 

[jdm311]

What if vulture/cop vomit dropped vehicle durability to 0? Then you would have to hop off your bicycle/minibike/etc/etc to repair it while the horde rushes you. Even more hardcore, what if the vomit vaporized your vehicle? A vulture could spawn in front of you once you begin to leave the horde in the dust, as long as you are outside your radius of control as with the LCB/bedroll so it doesn't spawn in your base.

 

[RestInPieces]

So yeah let people avoid hordes when ever they feel like it, for whatever reason, be it just for one hordenight or more. And don´t avoid them for yourself. What is the problem there? Don´t do it, let other´s do it. What do you gain if there is no option to avoid it? Or is this about a lack of selfcontrol here?

I really don´t see the point, when it is so easy to solve by just not avoiding them yourself unless you have no selfcontrol ofc.

Groundbreaking. We should let developers world-wide know that their games don't need dfficulty settings if people just have some self-control. Silly game designers. Want more challenge in your game? Don't feel threatened enough? Go get hit a by zombie on purpose a few times, throw yourself in the worst situations and then try to deal with them, etc etc! The true survival experience by using self-control to not-survive and then trying to survive and so on.

Are you people for real?

 

[RipClaw]

A vulture could spawn in front of you once you begin to leave the horde in the dust, as long as you are outside your radius of control as with the LCB/bedroll so it doesn't spawn in your base.

Little problem. I have no LCB and no sleeping bag in my horde base. Most players I know have separate bases for different tasks.

 

[jdm311]

Little problem. I have no LCB and no sleeping bag in my horde base. Most players I know have separate bases for different tasks.

Do zombies spawn in your horde base right now? If not, why not use that mechanic to prevent the vulture from coming in?

 

[RipClaw]

Do zombies spawn in your horde base right now? If not, why not use that mechanic to prevent the vulture from coming in?

My work base was a ranger station POI until recently. My horde base is completely self-built. Had I removed the sleeping bag and the LCB there, I would have had zombies in the house. And at my gamestage at least one cop would have been spawned. He would have vomited once and destroyed my storage.

Vultures at horde night are nothing more than a little nuisance and no real danger compared to the other zombies. So I don't need an LCB to keep them away.

But this is not about me or my base. I fight the horde and I don't care if others do the same or not. And that's why I think it's unnecessary to invest effort and development time here to stop a behavior that isn't even clear how widespread it is. Just because there's the possibility to avoid the horde by spending the night on the bike doesn't mean that a lot of the players do it. Do you do it ?

 

[Prisma501]

I dont.

Cheers

 

[jdm311]

No, I like to fight them in the street. There have definitely been suggestions that I feel would ruin my gameplay (acid rain, increased zed speed, etc). However, this discussion was created to come up with a way to improve the gameplay of people who feel that vehicles are an exploit. Even though I feel there is no way the dev team will address/solve all exploits and this mechanic would be better served in a mod, I am happy to try to assist in coming up with a solution that people can more or less agree on. And if it means the discussion leads away from the ideas I don't like... :tickled_pink: .

Edit: Guess I didn't look closely enough at the thread title... Running away instead of driving away. I hope my point isn't lost...

 

[meganoth]

The on/off would be an option if it wouldn´t mess with your game, things get messed up if you turn it off and on again. I tried that once because i messed up my base and didn´t want to drive around all night, gave me daily hordes after that instead of every 7 days. So not an option because it simply doesn´t work.

Did you change the blood moon settings? There seems to be a bug when you change them in a running game. The easier and (AFAIK) safe option is to simply turn off zombies for the duration of the horde night

 

[meganoth]

I'm already looking forward to the bugs that will be randomly triggered resulting in not working vehicles regardless if there is a horde or not. It's not like we don't have enough problems with vehicles already.

Bugs are always created in development. Are you suggesting to stop developing for fear of new bugs?

Could be done, but what if you're at your base? Then the cop spawns right in your base behind your defense. Have fun with it.

The cops can spawn like they do now, at the edge of your chunk. Just predominantly in the direction you are driving so that their spit has a chance to reach the driver. If you sit in your base on a bike nothing bad happens.

I could certainly design a hybrid defense to compensate for a power outage. In my current base I have elements that slow the zombies down if they make it through the traps and run towards my shark cage. All I have to do is extend these measures and just pack more ammo in case such a stupid EMP zombie comes along. And depending on how this works with the power failure, I'd have to move the position of the generator so that I can restart it if it doesn't happen automatically.

And that is what I would find interesting in an EMP zombie too. Finding ways to adapt to this zombie, put backups in other places, look at eventualities and find out at horde night if it works out or I have to switch to plan B.

If you're into stuffing holes, have fun doing it. I honestly doubt you can speak of success with the digging zombies. Now they're digging through stairs instead of using them.

What bothers me about the digging zombies is that they always disturb me at work. Almost like colleagues in the office.

I will see how it goes. If I find a good solution I can boast about being a better builder than you, if not, I will still have a lot of fun experimenting and giving my co-op players something to rant about :cocksure:

If you were a 7 Days developer, you'd have more important things to do than worry about something like this. I am a system administrator and also develop my own tools. So I know that most of the work is not noticed by the users at all because it takes place below the surface.

As players, we have the luxury of not having to worry about basic things like keeping memory consumption low despite high resolution textures. It took until A17 until they solved this problem. And they have still a lot of other stuff to do.

Sure, this is just one of countless things to do. I don't know their priorities and neither do you. The game will not be feature-complete at release (or ever) nor 100% balanced nor bug free, this might be among the things they never have time to balance.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Groundbreaking. We should let developers world-wide know that their games don't need dfficulty settings if people just have some self-control. Silly game designers. Want more challenge in your game? Don't feel threatened enough? Go get hit a by zombie on purpose a few times, throw yourself in the worst situations and then try to deal with them, etc etc! The true survival experience by using self-control to not-survive and then trying to survive and so on. Are you people for real?

Difficulty settings and avoiding one horde night is a different pair of shoes. Wait no, that´s shoes and apples you are comparing here.

Again, what do you gain personally, as someone who obviously doesn´t avoid horde night, if the game forces you to face the horde every time? If it isn´t about selfcontrol what is it about that you want to force everyone else to play like you play?

Scared that you friends don´t think you are cool anymore if you play a game where you can avoid a challenge if you want to?

I still miss the reason why you can´t let people play like they want to.

@meganoth yeah, didn´t think of that. Oh well, a restart didn´t hurt too much, the world i had sucked anyway.

Also i would like to add that giving away guns and ammo on day one like candy on halloween, is making this game way too easy. That´s more of a problem that should be adressed instead.

 

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

You guys are all way overthinking this.

All we need to do is start referring to games where people face the horde every time without running or riding away as "Fight Every Horde" games, in the same way that we refer to games where people delete the save after dying as "Dead is Dead" games. Make it into an extra self-imposed challenge over and above the normal game.

That way people can brag about playing "Fight Every Horde" just like people brag about playing "Dead is Dead" and can feel all smug and superior because of their game choices, while those whose egos aren't so fragile can still fight the horde or run/ride away as they choose each time.

Plus, for those who do want to play "Fight Every Horde", the fact that running/riding away would mean they'd be lying if they claimed that they play that way forms a psychological barrier discouraging them from succumbing to the temptation to do it.

Everyone wins, no-one's play preference is removed, and no code changes are required!

 

[RipClaw]

Bugs are always created in development. Are you suggesting to stop developing for fear of new bugs?

No but a basic rule of software development is that you have to ask yourself if you really need the new feature. Then you sleep one night over it and ask yourself the question again the next day. If you're not sure if the new feature is needed then you don't implement it. So you avoid unnecessary bugs.

It has already been confirmed that the slow speed of the zombies is a bug in the game. In A18 the zombies are faster at nightmare speed than the player himself.

At default settings is in A17 the fastest zombie about as fast as the bicycle on a straight track without sprint. With sprint you can outrun the zombie but that requires stamina. I can imagine that in A18 at nightmare speed the fastest zombie is as fast as the bicycle with sprint. So players who want more thrills at the horde night can simply set the zombies to nightmare speed in A18.

Furthermore madmol has announced that in A18 the availability of gasoline will be limited. One will have to think about its use. If you waste all your fuel during the week on exploring, you won't have anything left for the horde night if you want to avoid the horde.

If you want more fuel available you will have to mine oil shale in the desert and you will need a functioning chemistry station.

On the other hand, ammunition will no longer be available to the same extent as it is today. Therefore, even those who fight the horde will have to make more preparations for the horde night.

Except for the zombie speed bug fixes, these measures do not require any code changes, but they do change the game. That's balancing for me. Not introducing measures that only target a certain group of players or a certain behavior.

 

[meganoth]

No but a basic rule of software development is that you have to ask yourself if you really need the new feature. Then you sleep one night over it and ask yourself the question again the next day. If you're not sure if the new feature is needed then you don't implement it. So you avoid unnecessary bugs.

It is quite evident that we have different opinions about the importance of this balancing step and so it is also quite possible that we would come to different answers after that nights sleep. Bugs are development costs like anything else and a cost/benefit analysis shows whether something is worthwhile or not. But when you set the benefit to 0 or negative for this balancing (like you seem to do) then any cost is too much. No surprise there, that is simple math.

It has already been confirmed that the slow speed of the zombies is a bug in the game. In A18 the zombies are faster at nightmare speed than the player himself.

At default settings is in A17 the fastest zombie about as fast as the bicycle on a straight track without sprint. With sprint you can outrun the zombie but that requires stamina. I can imagine that in A18 at nightmare speed the fastest zombie is as fast as the bicycle with sprint. So players who want more thrills at the horde night can simply set the zombies to nightmare speed in A18.

Furthermore madmol has announced that in A18 the availability of gasoline will be limited. One will have to think about its use. If you waste all your fuel during the week on exploring, you won't have anything left for the horde night if you want to avoid the horde.

If you want more fuel available you will have to mine oil shale in the desert and you will need a functioning chemistry station.

On the other hand, ammunition will no longer be available to the same extent as it is today. Therefore, even those who fight the horde will have to make more preparations for the horde night.

Except for the zombie speed bug fixes, these measures do not require any code changes, but they do change the game. That's balancing for me. Not introducing measures that only target a certain group of players or a certain behavior.

Increasing costs IS one of the measures I listed as possible balancing steps in my first post. So what are we arguing about? My main point all the time was: It is unbalanced now (...and there are lots of different ways to combat it)

I would predict though that gasoline will not be limited enough to really make a difference on horde night. Maybe increasing fuel consumption on horde night might be an additional step to make this work. To be sure I don't get misinterpreted: This is no doom prophecy, I'll wait for A18, play it and then judge it again (and expect to have as much influence on what TFP does eventually as I have now, about 0.0000001 on a scale of 1 to 100 :cocksure: )

 

[RestInPieces]

Difficulty settings and avoiding one horde night is a different pair of shoes. Wait no, that´s shoes and apples you are comparing here.
Again, what do you gain personally, as someone who obviously doesn´t avoid horde night, if the game forces you to face the horde every time? If it isn´t about selfcontrol what is it about that you want to force everyone else to play like you play?

Scared that you friends don´t think you are cool anymore if you play a game where you can avoid a challenge if you want to?

I still miss the reason why you can´t let people play like they want to.

If you think it's about "challenge that will make you feel/seem cool" you are clearly projecting your own way of thinking. If you think it's about "forcing other people to play like I play" then, newsflash, you are not the center of the world, nobody gives a damn about how you or other random people play over the internet. Only your occasional immature brat or your run-of-the-mill psychopath will "care". I don't know how people are so sensitive when it comes to these things and throw accusations/assumptions around, maybe they should stop hanging out with the fortnite community or whatever twitch overachievers they watch.

And they are not different at all because they have exactly the same principles behind them. You choose a ruleset and play with it, it's that simple. Ruleset. You choose your preferred experience via options and play in that ruleset. You don't pretend you are threatened, you choose the ruleset in which the game threatens you. You don't play pretend that you have to eat - the game forces you to. You don't pretend that you have a disease - the game forces that upon you etc etc. Saying essentially that rules don't matter and all you need is self-control and "willpower" is absolutely ridiculous. Saying that I want to force people into playing my way when TFP added a horde night option is both ridiculous and hypocritical.

Every game since the dawn of time (except pure sandbox games) "forces" you into some rules because that's the very thing that makes it a game! It's too damn obvious to miss. "Playing pretend" does not replace the ruleset - if that was the case, no game would need to have rules because "willpower". I want to be threatened - choosing to be threatened is not the same with actually being threatened. I want to have an actual reason to use the TD elements of the game. Having an actual reason or urgency is not the same with pretending there is a reason or urgency. I frankly can't believe anyone who can't understand these differences, will at least pretend they are trolling else there goes my last shred of faith in humanity.

I would predict though that gasoline will not be limited enough to really make a difference on horde night.

Yeah, I'd put money on that prediction.

 

[RipClaw]

It is quite evident that we have different opinions about the importance of this balancing step and so it is also quite possible that we would come to different answers after that nights sleep. Bugs are development costs like anything else and a cost/benefit analysis shows whether something is worthwhile or not. But when you set the benefit to 0 or negative for this balancing (like you seem to do) then any cost is too much. No surprise there, that is simple math.

That's correct.

Increasing costs IS one of the measures I listed as possible balancing steps in my first post. So what are we arguing about? My main point all the time was: It is unbalanced now (...and there are lots of different ways to combat it)

Madmole's not doing the balancing because of the horde night. He balances the game in general. He explained that you can either do a long drive once a week or several short drives during the week. He did not mention the horde at all. This was just one example of how the change could affect players who want to avoid the horde.

I would predict though that gasoline will not be limited enough to really make a difference on horde night. Maybe increasing fuel consumption on horde night might be an additional step to make this work.

I'm curious how you'd explain that to the people who always talk about immersion. Why should vehicles in the horde suddenly consume more fuel at horde night?

To be sure I don't get misinterpreted: This is no doom prophecy, I'll wait for A18, play it and then judge it again (and expect to have as much influence on what TFP does eventually as I have now, about 0.0000001 on a scale of 1 to 100 :cocksure: )

I once mentioned that people who are bothered by the fact the you can avoid the horde on a bike can make a mod. The reaction wasn't that positive.

I am well aware that neither I nor you nor anyone else from the forum can influence much here. But I can give my opinion on a topic.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

If you think it's about "challenge that will make you feel/seem cool" you are clearly projecting your own way of thinking. If you think it's about "forcing other people to play like I play" then, newsflash, you are not the center of the world, nobody gives a damn about how you or other random people play over the internet. Only your occasional immature brat or your run-of-the-mill psychopath will "care". I don't know how people are so sensitive when it comes to these things and throw accusations/assumptions around, maybe they should stop hanging out with the fortnite community or whatever twitch overachievers they watch.
And they are not different at all because they have exactly the same principles behind them. You choose a ruleset and play with it, it's that simple. Ruleset. You choose your preferred experience via options and play in that ruleset. You don't pretend you are threatened, you choose the ruleset in which the game threatens you. You don't play pretend that you have to eat - the game forces you to. You don't pretend that you have a disease - the game forces that upon you etc etc. Saying essentially that rules don't matter and all you need is self-control and "willpower" is absolutely ridiculous. Saying that I want to force people into playing my way when TFP added a horde night option is both ridiculous and hypocritical.

Every game since the dawn of time (except pure sandbox games) "forces" you into some rules because that's the very thing that makes it a game! It's too damn obvious to miss. "Playing pretend" does not replace the ruleset - if that was the case, no game would need to have rules because "willpower". I want to be threatened - choosing to be threatened is not the same with actually being threatened. I want to have an actual reason to use the TD elements of the game. Having an actual reason or urgency is not the same with pretending there is a reason or urgency. I frankly can't believe anyone who can't understand these differences, will at least pretend they are trolling else there goes my last shred of faith in humanity.

Yeah, I'd put money on that prediction.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. No, really... I couldn’t, though I have tried. I’m very glad you managed to express what I couldn’t because this Mr. Rogers pretend play time vibe has been spreading around lately and it makes me cringe every time.

+1 as soon I get off mobile.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

So it is about a lack of selfcontrol. Thought so. And if nobody cares how i play then leave things as they are. Nobody cares anyway.

Force the horde to everyone and you will loose players. Not everyone wants to avoid every horde night. Sometimes it´s just one. Turning things on and off doesn´t help and usually messes with your game.

TFP has a lot more importnant stuff to take care off. And no matter what they do, people WILL find ways to avoid unless they cripple the game down to a FPS.

 

[DarlingCows]

Reading the first part of the thread and nothing else

I think 10x speed zombies is a bad idea. It’s doesn’t work in either case, run away from horde and die. Build a base, base fails and run away and die.

We should be able to run away from the horde on blood moon night. Weather or not you build a base to defend.