A New Chapter for The Fun Pimps and 7 Days to Die

[InfiniteWarrior]

1. The old clothing system had horrendous clipping issues and looked vile
2. The old system presented no meaningful choices whatsoever. BDU Top, BDU or gothic pants and a duster or a parka, depending on whether you were going hot or cold, were clear mechanical winners over every single other clothing item

However much you love or hate the new armour system, it fixes those two issues.

I'd have to disagree replacing the layered system "fixed" those issues. It obviously just replaced the layered system with a non-layered system rather than fixing it. That it looked "vile" was simply a matter of modeling and texturing. Other studios have figured out how to offer both clothing and armor options without all that clipping and, of course, the lack of choices is easily solved by offering more choices. (Actually, I think mod authors figured out the former first.) Some might not like the solutions to those issues most often used, e.g. offering the option to make armor pieces invisible in favor of outfits without losing protection or buffs, but -- please -- let's not pretend it was "fixed". It just made it so that each section of the character model has only one slot. It makes less sense to me to call clothing armor and give clothing armor ratings.

 

[Syphon583]

At the end of the day, it's content that's been cut from the game [which you paid full price for] so it can be sold separately and monetized, whether it's skins or whatever.

What does it matter the amount of DLCs? Here's the important question: did the devs deliver the base game experience as described when you purchased it? If they deliver that without requiring DLC, then the amount of added content does not matter. You can complain all you want that they are cutting content out of the game for the sake of making money, but they are a business in the business of making money. EVERY game company is, and we cannot fault TFP/BI for following the (unfortunate as it is) gaming business trend that is DLC. And that's not just game devs. Almost every industry is starting to implement similar practices, some I'd label as shady, but not all.

As far as 7DTD is concerned, IMO they can shut the doors now and never implement another thing and, while I'd be upset that the promises made weren't kept and I'd never buy another TFP product, I'd be lying my ■■■ off if I said I didn't get my moneys worth for this game.

 

[Jost Amman]

Having the entire PvP population on a single server sounds a little ambitious..

Not if the entire PvP population is composed by Grandpa Minion and his two friends...

 

[grz__]

What does it matter the amount of DLCs? Here's the important question: did the devs deliver the base game experience as described when you purchased it? If they deliver that without requiring DLC, then the amount of added content does not matter.

Yeah, the number of DLCs does matter—it’s what’s going to determine whether the full game costs €70 or €200. I don’t know about you, but to me, paying €200 for a video game seems excessive.

As far as 7DTD is concerned, IMO they can shut the doors now and never implement another thing and, while I'd be upset that the promises made weren't kept and I'd never buy another TFP product, I'd be lying my ■■■ off if I said I didn't get my moneys worth for this game.

In my opinion, they could wrap up the game in the next update or the one featuring the bandits, and I'd be satisfied.

You can complain all you want that they are cutting content out of the game for the sake of making money, but they are a business in the business of making money. EVERY game company is, and we cannot fault TFP/BI for following the (unfortunate as it is) gaming business trend that is DLC. And that's not just game devs. Almost every industry is starting to implement similar practices, some I'd label as shady, but not all.

With that mindset, then, we can’t really complain when other industries—like the automotive industry—charge you a subscription fee just to use the windshield wipers and the heater, because, you know, they have to make money… and because that’s the trend…

Video game companies and other industries were already successful before these practices.

With 2,000 hours, I think I’ve gotten my money’s worth, and I wouldn’t even mind buying a couple of DLCs if they’re worth it, but that’s it.

Besides, the game is from 2014 or so—it’s about time we could get the full game, maybe make a more modern 7DTD2 or something.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

did the devs deliver the base game experience as described when you purchased it?

Not yet. 7DTD is still far from being completed. Yet, the company is selling "cosmetic DLC" for it anyway. I can only conclude that's why TFP made so much of the game "coming out of alpha" and "going gold" when it hadn't actually come out of alpha and gone gold. I speculated this might have been a stipulation of getting it resynced on Playstation, but that speculation is probably incorrect in light of both the acquisition and paid modifications.

Did TFP cut content? No. Content implemented thus far necessary to play the yet-to-be-completed game described has not been cut, but promised content (bandits, story) has not been implemented in large part, either. Three superficial armors presented as coming to the base game, leading many to believe they would be among the basic armor sets, were cut and sold separately. Without an explanation from TFP (and none has been forthcoming), most people are going to choose for themselves whether that was an innocent oversight or something intentional to be upset about with the limited information available to them, and they have.

we cannot fault TFP/BI for following the (unfortunate as it is) gaming business trend that is DLC

It's not necessary for independent studios to follow questionable industry trends to remain reasonably profitable as companies. Many other studios, e.g. Obsidian and FromSoftware, aren't despite that they're no longer independent...for the moment. (And you have to wonder how much longer they're going to be able withstand the pressure from "on high.") It's a decision and the decision has been made by TFP to follow the trend. I sincerely hope the company doesn't come to regret it. In the case of far larger studios, they likely haven't been given a choice. The decision has more than just likely come from parent companies, which is why I don't get why people blame Bethesda for choices more than likely made by ZeniMax and, now, Microsoft. Beth has been fumbling all over itself for a reason. Who, exactly, determined Beth must retrofit its entire back catalog with microtransactions? I'd wager it was an executive at ZeniMax in an effort to make Beth look more profitable than it was at the time of ZeniMax's sale of all its assets to Microsoft.

I'd be lying my ■■■ off if I said I didn't get my moneys worth for this game.

That's the decision emotionally invested players are going have to make for themselves. Was their initial outlay well spent? To hear them tell it, they love the game and have spent upwards of hundreds of hours playing it. Ergo, I imagine most would say, yes. The future of the game, whatever it may be, doesn't affect that in the least. They can decide to abandon it if they can't get behind the change in business model or stick with it regardless. Their choice.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I'm not claiming that; I just said it might seem suspicious.

Indeed, you did, and some of us know that. So, I'd ignore any claims to the contrary were I you.

 

[grz__]

Indeed, you did, and some of us know that. So, I'd ignore any claims to the contrary were I you.

This is what I said
Quote

It’s true that we can’t know for sure whether this is cut content from the game or not, but considering that there used to be a clothing system that was replaced by armor—perhaps this might seem suspicious to some. End of quote

In my case, I don't know because I didn't see any announcements or anything like that at the time—I just updated the game and they were already there.

 

[Dead Smarty]

With that mindset, then, we can’t really complain when other industries—like the automotive industry—charge you a subscription fee just to use the windshield wipers and the heater, because, you know, they have to make money… and because that’s the trend…

Video game companies and other industries were already successful before these practices.

There is a huge difference between a luxury industry as gaming and something like transportation. So yes, we should complain every time that happens. And for gaming in my case that means: Every developer gets a fair chance but once that trust is abused there won't be any more money from me for any of your future projects.
In the case of 7d2d that means I bought an early acces product for the PS5, if it never gets finished that was the last thing I bought from TFP.

 

[khzmusik]

Spitting against the wind is the best analogy.

I don't know. The Stop Killing Games movement seems to be doing well in the EU. And, John Deere settled a class-action lawsuit for $99 million, and agreed to open up their software so their farm equipment can be repaired by third parties.

If anything, the notion of "you won't own what you buy and love it" seems to be gaining less traction, not more.

As for this game becoming a live service model we’ve already seen posts in favor of it. Our overzealous PVP cousins are very much interested in 7 Days turning into a game that supports 50+ players destroying each other season after season….

I don't know what you mean by a "live service" game, but it doesn't really have anything to do with PvP. Unless you're talking about TFP hosting their own PvP servers, and charging a monthly fee to do so.

Live service games are usually considered games which follow the "games as a service" model. The focus is on recurring revenue, through subscriptions, participation in cloud gaming services (e.g. Google Stadia or Amazon Luna), purchasable in-game currency, paid loot boxes, season passes, etc.

The moment 7D2D becomes a live service game, is the moment players will abandon it. It's not a service now, and nobody wants it to turn into one.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

This is what I said
Quote

It’s true that we can’t know for sure whether this is cut content from the game or not, but considering that there used to be a clothing system that was replaced by armor—perhaps this might seem suspicious to some. End of quote

I know.

STII: The Wrath of Khan

Saavik to Spock: "You lied."
Spock to Saavik: "I exaggerated."

TFP brings most of the suspicion on themselves, imo, because they've exaggerated -- a lot -- over the years. Don't they know people are lining up to support the underdogs? The triple As have buried themselves with many. It's the indies' time to shine and, if they didn't have much initially, they have plenty of experience producing their own game now, but their reputation for "shadiness" is well-earned, imo, not because they've done anything criminal or illegal, but because they've simply kept too much in the dark -- i.e., "in the shade." Lack of clear communication is the number one complaint I hear about TFP. If anything good has come from the acquisition thus far it's the communication blackout, afic. They can't say anything embarassing they might regret later. They're going to have to get it together and be forthcoming about what's to come down the road(map). Had they done that with the "cosmetic DLC," I doubt anyone in the community would have bat an eyelash. They might not have liked it, but they would have known it was coming. The lack of clear communication on TFP's part is no excuse for the unfounded shade the community has thrown their way, but that's the reality of TFP-community relatons, as I see it.

Honestly, I get the impression they've been playing at producing a game and, personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact, I'm a strong proponent of the learn by doing method, missteps and all. So many people want to produce a game (or write a book or compose a piece of music), but don't have the courage even to start. So, I salute TFP for their courage and commitment, if not their exaggeration, and hope it's been more a fun ride than a nightmare.

So much for the business end of things. Is it ever pleasant?

 

[Riamus]

I don't know what you mean by a "live service" game, but it doesn't really have anything to do with PvP. Unless you're talking about TFP hosting their own PvP servers, and charging a monthly fee to do so.

Live service games are usually considered games which follow the "games as a service" model. The focus is on recurring revenue, through subscriptions, participation in cloud gaming services (e.g. Google Stadia or Amazon Luna), purchasable in-game currency, paid loot boxes, season passes, etc.

The moment 7D2D becomes a live service game, is the moment players will abandon it. It's not a service now, and nobody wants it to turn into one.

I think the idea was that PVP players tend to like live service games that continue to do updates and provide those pay to win options that use in-game currency and paid loot boxes and season passes and the like. As opposed to most other players.

Either way, I won't update again if they go that route. I doubt it will since the game is near to being finished, but I have a very strong feeling the next game(s) from TFP will be thanks to BI.

 

[Roland]

I don't know. The Stop Killing Games movement seems to be doing well in the EU. And, John Deere settled a class-action lawsuit for $99 million, and agreed to open up their software so their farm equipment can be repaired by third parties.

If anything, the notion of "you won't own what you buy and love it" seems to be gaining less traction, not more.

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I'm skeptical of things going back to the way they were. The toothpaste has left the bottle.

I don't know what you mean by a "live service" game, but it doesn't really have anything to do with PvP. Unless you're talking about TFP hosting their own PvP servers, and charging a monthly fee to do so.

Live service games are usually considered games which follow the "games as a service" model. The focus is on recurring revenue, through subscriptions, participation in cloud gaming services (e.g. Google Stadia or Amazon Luna), purchasable in-game currency, paid loot boxes, season passes, etc.

I mean what you mean. That's why I said "season after season".

The moment 7D2D becomes a live service game, is the moment players will abandon it. It's not a service now, and nobody wants it to turn into one.

You can't know that. I already stated that I've seen posts that are pro and someone else stated they saw a content creator argue for it. Saying "nobody wants it" is quite simply ignoring the truth. Live service games exist because they are profitable because enough gamers enjoy them and support them. I don't want 7 Days to Die to turn into one and I don't believe it is headed that way. But the feelings about them in the overall gamer population is obviously mixed. It's like people who stated 8 years ago that "nobody watches streamers" just because they were anti-streamer weekend.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

This game does not have DLCs, at least not according to mainstream definition.

That is what I was posting a few pages back. Downloadable content infers
that the content is not already on your gaming medium. The way it is set
up here and has been from the beginning, is unlockable content.

You are only requesting and buying permission to use it. That is why I asked if they;
meaning Whomever is in charge now, had plans to restructure the game format
in the future.

All of the cosmetics listed on steam and some not listed yet are already, in the
game directory.

Future expansion using that format could cause conflict, with a different type
of distribution model or idea.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

The live service bubble burst in 2023 and obviously resulted in terrible losses, financial and otherwise, for the triple As. CEOs saw the success of Fornite, et al., and said to themselves, "That's what we need to do," then set about tasking every studio and its neighbor to produce one regardless whether the studio had any experience even with multiplayer games, much less "live service" games. Ergo, the disastrous launch of FO76* and Redfall, among others. The big boys couldn't absorb the losses, which is much of the reason for the massive layoffs across the industry over the past couple of years, imo. They overhired during Covid; under-delivered; and are now paying the price.

Not only is the live service market saturated, people who enjoy live service games don't flit from one to another. They stick with the one they're playing. It would take the most original, ingenious idea to lure them away at this point and the single player-base of studios like BGS and Arkane mostly didn't hop aboard the live service freight train. They had to struggle to find an audience. Phil Spencer was ready to axe FO76, it took so long for that game to find a captive audience. That's why I thought Blood Moons was ill-advised. The live service train had already left the station.

Live service fans are not the audience TFP built and I don't imagine they'll retain the majority of it if they do go that route and if player sentiment is any indication. Then what? Struggle to find a new one? Or...borrow from another one?

I don't want 7 Days to Die to turn into one and I don't believe it is headed that way.

I certainly hope not but, if it does, it will no doubt go the route of Dead by Daylight. Not a live service game...at first. The players who have already expressed an interest in it becoming live service would no doubt come along for the ride, but I can't imagine most 7DTD fans would be interested any more than they were interested in Blood Moons. Of course, my imagination could be off, but I get the impression BI thinks it's bought a built-in audience and not just a studio and game.

*Honestly think CEOs saw the writing on the wall for live service and unceremoniously dumped FO76 on the market half-finished; washed their hands of it; and left BGS to face the brunt of the criticism. I feel for the studio and its devs. It wasn't their doing.

This game does not have DLCs, at least not according to mainstream definition.

I was rather hoping TFP would buck the mainstream. Fortunately, there are other studios that will, can and do.

 

[Jost Amman]

And we're still here discussing among ourselves...
This forum is now officially useless and dead (by daylight).

 

[Nukem_ded]

I am pretty sure

references please...

 

[Nukem_ded]

If you have to spend money in order to complete a game

do you remember the arcade games? you die, you put another coin in the slot

In-game purchases using real money - Rarely acceptable. If the purchases are not needed in order to play the game and so are entirely optional, AND the purchasing system is not directly in your face, then I don't really care.

agree. if i get bored playing fallout shelter then i may buy a few lunch boxes to spice up a rainy weekend afternoon

DLC of any kind other than Pay to Win stuff - Acceptable.

agree here too. there are a lot of people who have so much money they dont know what it means to have money. anything that can take that away from them is good. in this context it pays the people who make the games who make we love to play.

 

[Dead Smarty]

Saying "nobody wants it" is quite simply ignoring the truth. Live service games exist because they are profitable because enough gamers enjoy them and support them. I don't want 7 Days to Die to turn into one and I don't believe it is headed that way. But the feelings about them in the overall gamer population is obviously mixed. It's like people who stated 8 years ago that "nobody watches streamers" just because they were anti-streamer weekend.

Ok, let me rephrase it for him: It's not a service now, and nobody with a few functioning braincells wants it to turn into one.
And yes, there will always be some brawling idiot willing to show off his money over brain attitude every season again.

 

[meganoth]

references please...

On one side there is a long history of comments from TFP staff and madmole about their plans for 7D2D, some about what will happen after release. Nothing hinted at plans for a live service game. Now plans can change, opinions can change, so this is far from conclusive. Sorry, there is no sense in including links to long lost posts, even if I had them.
On the other side there is BI who's **very first** action coming into the seat is looking for a community manager with service game experience. That as well isn't conclusive, they may have just wanted to have a community manager (unlike TFP), but added the experience bit for their future plans. You' ve seen the job offers I assume?

That is why I think it highly likely that what is planned for 7D2D came from BI and it just so happened that the owners of TFP found them acceptable or even liked them (in combination with what else BI offered ).

 

[Matt115]

You can't know that. I already stated that I've seen posts that are pro and someone else stated they saw a content creator argue for it. Saying "nobody wants it" is quite simply ignoring the truth. Live service games exist because they are profitable because enough gamers enjoy them and support them. I don't want 7 Days to Die to turn into one and I don't believe it is headed that way. But the feelings about them in the overall gamer population is obviously mixed. It's like people who stated 8 years ago that "nobody watches streamers" just because they were anti-streamer weekend.

Most People doesn't like casino but walk there anyway. Why? get addicted. And similiar techniques are used in Live-service games and mobile games as for hazard stuff.
So... consider how good sells SP games like RE9 shows that people are tired of Live service game

And we're still here discussing among ourselves...
This forum is now officially useless and dead (by daylight).

Ehh... i like Behaviour because they are doing good thing with Blight ( JOIN THEIR DISCORD FINALY -.-)

On one side there is a long history of comments from TFP staff and madmole about their plans for 7D2D, some about what will happen after release. Nothing hinted at plans for a live service game. Now plans can change, opinions can change, so this is far from conclusive. Sorry, there is no sense in including links to long lost posts, even if I had them.
On the other side there is BI who's **very first** action coming into the seat is looking for a community manager with service game experience. That as well isn't conclusive, they may have just wanted to have a community manager (unlike TFP), but added the experience bit for their future plans. You' ve seen the job offers I assume?

That is why I think it highly likely that what is planned for 7D2D came from BI and it just so happened that the owners of TFP found them acceptable or even liked them (in combination with what else BI offered ).

I hope they will announce another game soon. ( I hope for WD but with 7dtd gameplay).