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A meta-discussion about modding

Devs should do all they can to make modding as simple as possible. You already agreed with that.
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Yep.

So why "it is what it is, not everyone can be able to do it" and not "yeah, backward sprinting and what ever is possible, should go into xmls"? Sounds like you try to counter my reasoning.
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Refer to original response of

"The devs are going to do what the devs are going to do".

Such is life. It is what it is. If they do it great. If they dont, you got learning to do. In the end we get what we get.

See, I dont need to counter your reasoning, because no amount of whinging, polling, protesting, posting, is going to make the devs do anything. They are going to do what they want to do and if we dont like it, mod it.

You need to accept that, and then, do what you need to do to do what it is you want to do.

If the tools dont exist, like UABE not working with the block and terrain bundles, there isnt much we can do, accept it.

---->It is what it is.<----

 
Yep.
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See. So why the argumentum ad nauseum? What are you trying to achieve?

Refer to original response of
"The devs are going to do what the devs are going to do".

Such is life. It is what it is. If they do it great. If they dont, you got learning to do. In the end we get what we get.

See, I dont need to counter your reasoning, because no amount of whinging, polling, protesting, posting, is going to make the devs do anything. They are going to do what they want to do and if we dont like it, mod it.

You need to accept that, and then, do what you need to do to do what it is you want to do.

If the tools dont exist, like UABE not working with the block and terrain bundles, there isnt much we can do, accept it.

---->It is what it is.<----
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If you don't need to counter my reasoning, then what do you want?
And I disagree that customer feedback is pointless and will have no influence on the company. Companies are always highly interested in what customers think. Besides that one can just state one's opinion without expecting that it will change the world.

 
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I don't disagree that the more of the gameplay settings that are exposed via xml the better. Labor, time and quality constraints are what TFP (or any business in a different context) considers when making the decision to expose any particular code section to xml changes.

Exposing the code base via xml will require:

1. More code to write, test and debug = that is: hire more staff, accept more defects, or take longer to release updates

2. More variability to how individual features behave that will cause unexpected interactions and calls for support and changes. It's not fair but users will say since the feature is exposed in xml then TFP should support all ways that xml can be used to change the game.

Probably more, but these 2 reasons alone are probably why TFP is choosy about what gets exposed in xml. They gave us much more xml functionality in A17. I hope the user base applauds them for this while waiting for more when constraints allow.

 
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I have a question, has TFP said they would not ever expose the setting for sprint in a xml file? Because if the whole point of thread is arguing that they should and never said that I not sure what trying to prove? Code changes are not as simple as just changing a file when working on a collaborated product. I find it highly unlikely that TFP is holding anything back from being changed via xml because of them wanting to keep modders special.

Any way there are people that don't even understand xml and they could come in and use the OP argument vs making it easier for them to mod because XML confuses them at what point do TFP have to go to accommodate people that are lacking knowledge of some aspect of coding?

 
Bottom line be happy TFP support modding at all. Take what they give you and use it or as others have said learn how to use the more advanced ways of getting the info you need. If that doesn't work for you then maybe instead of complaining about it let it go.

End of story!

 
I don't disagree that the more of the gameplay settings that are exposed via xml the better. Labor, time and quality constraints are what TFP (or any business in a different context) considers when making the decision to expose any particular code section to xml changes.
Exposing the code base via xml will require:

1. More code to write, test and debug = that is: hire more staff, accept more defects, or take longer to release updates

2. More variability to how individual features behave that will cause unexpected interactions and calls for support and changes. It's not fair but users will say since the feature is exposed in xml then TFP should support all ways that xml can be used to change the game.

Probably more, but these 2 reasons alone are probably why TFP is choosy about what gets exposed in xml. They gave us much more xml functionality in A17. I hope the user base applauds them for this while waiting for more when constraints allow.
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And this is what happened^^

 
Ill throw my 2 cents in because.... well Im me.

I certainly do appreciate that these things are becoming available to us. I just learned Mecanim last night after being an old codger grumpster saying i didn't want to and holy ♥♥♥♥ its amazing and easy. Way easier than Legacy that Im kicking myself for not learning sooner.

But that's where my issue lies. There is a lot of knowledge out there, and a lot of changes. People are going to need to learn, and simply saying that they can figure it out if they tried is all well and good, but I think there are 2 people in this community that need to be looked at as prime examples of what the knowledge holders should be.

Sphereii and Xyth. Both take extraordinary amounts of time out to make clear and concise tutorials for people who do not have the time to chase down people outside of forums in the hopes of getting answers later in the day. I credit both of them with teaching me 60 percent of my knowledge in modding, and 90 percent of what I know about dlls and Unity.

If you have the knowledge, and you know how these things work put them down for others to learn. It's not a competition in who knows what, or it shouldn't be at least. These changes were made for us the modders. Not for certain people so it benefits everyone to have these things in writing. Clearly and concisely. Maybe then people won't be as hesitant or reluctant to go in and learn some of it. And the community would be better off for it. More creations, actual information without opinions etc.

It also saves people a lot of time focusing on individuals and helping. People get busy and I know I bug sphereii enough in private over things. His and xyths tutorial for Mecanim were instrumental in getting me off my ass and learning. The xpath tutorials are wonderful. Maybe Kub would be less grumpy if he had a RWG tutorial he could refer to?

Or maybe he would still be grumpy, I don't know. It's not worth fighting over though. Imagine how many people are reading this thread and being put off of bothering to mod. This thread is not beneficial for anyone and i agree with Gup it should be closed. It's only going to cause more round robin arguments.

 
I have a question, has TFP said they would not ever expose the setting for sprint in a xml file?
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Not that I know of. But they also did not expose it, though there were a lot of comments of people unhappy with the change. Everywhere, on the local forums, on Steam, on Youtube. It was quite unpopular among many. I don't know any of the technicalities, how hard it is to make something accessible, but I'm pretty sure that if the devs were determined enough, they could've put setting in the xml files.

It's just an example, though.

Because if the whole point of thread is arguing that they should and never said that I not sure what trying to prove?
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I was basically just saying what everybody agrees with, that modding should be very easy and not the privilege of a few nerds. That triggered a few nerds, I guess.

Code changes are not as simple as just changing a file when working on a collaborated product. I find it highly unlikely that TFP is holding anything back from being changed via xml because of them wanting to keep modders special.
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I haven't really heard any official statements about any of that, maybe some were made, but all I know are vague comments about "support" or something. Steam workshop. Whatever that even means.

There is of course a difference between actively holding something back on purpose and simply not caring to bring something forward. And here we have a good reason to ask for things to be brought forward: So they know we want them. And not have this attitude:

Bottom line be happy TFP support modding at all. Take what they give you and use it or as others have said learn how to use the more advanced ways of getting the info you need. If that doesn't work for you then maybe instead of complaining about it let it go.
End of story!
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If everybody always just says "yeah I can do that with some advanced method" (and those who want to be able to do it without such a method are declared leeches and lazy and whatnot), it might occur to the devs that it's not really necessary to make modding more convenient. But that as well is just a thought and not an assumption.

Any way there are people that don't even understand xml and they could come in and use the OP argument vs making it easier for them to mod because XML confuses them at what point do TFP have to go to accommodate people that are lacking knowledge of some aspect of coding?
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They obviously don't have to do anything, they could end all development today and noone had any claim to anything. There is no obligation, I'm just saying what I'm thinking would be great. And since you bring it up, I have more thoughts to share: If I was in charge, I would hire a guy or order one I already hired - sooner or later - to include a modding menu to the game. Where you can tweak things without ever opening an editor or anything. Where you can tweak a block or an item, where you can, for example, change the stack size or the damage or the lootcointainer it can be found in. Where you can just copy a block and give it a new texture-combination, new attributes. Where you can create your own zombies from scratch. Or design your custom biome, or tweak the terrain generator. Just with buttons, drop-downs and sliders. Wouldn't that be great? That would certainly be great.

Cuz once again: A person who is a professional programmer or has enough time to spend dozens of hours learning stuff is not necessarily a good modder. A good mod (or complete game) can purely rise from good ideas. For example when a creative mind tells a tech wizard what do code. Who made the game, the creative mind or the coder? It's maybe too philosophical for the location, but I say the creative mind. The coder is replacable, like a tool. And a lack of creativity cannot be compensated by technology. There won't ever be a slider for good ideas. A lack of knowledge can be compensated by technology.

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Oh for frack sake which moderator thought it would be a good idea to move this stupid conversation to the one pure section of the entire forum?
... This is exactly why we need moderators that understand the modding community.
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And with "modding community" you mean you and people who agree with you..? What are the other modders then? Not modders, as you have implied about me a couple of times..?

Close this thread so it can die buried under pages and not muddy the rest of the thread, which is actually productive and useful.
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Hey, I do agree that this thread is mostly unnecessary. It's so self-explanatory that everything I say is simply true. Why it was dragged out, well, we know the answer, hm? *wink wink*
 
It also saves people a lot of time focusing on individuals and helping. People get busy and I know I bug sphereii enough in private over things. His and xyths tutorial for Mecanim were instrumental in getting me off my ass and learning. The xpath tutorials are wonderful. Maybe Kub would be less grumpy if he had a RWG tutorial he could refer to?
Or maybe he would still be grumpy, I don't know.
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I would still be grumpy. I could learn RWG and Unity and whatnot. No problem. I'm a great and a fast learner.
I don't want to learn. I want everything to be super easy, as easy as possible. And I don't mean that anybody outside the company should do anything. No, those who earn all the money should do their very best to make everything as simple as possible.

Having said that, the things I am grumpy about are those that were removed. That I invested a lot of time into already, like the skill system, or earlier the static spawner. I don't like wasting my time. But then again, I also understand what early access means, so noone has to waste their time to lecture me. I'm still grumpy, though. Cuz it's annoying when a new alpha drops and your mod is practically dead.

And that is because I mod to play, not play to mod. I mod maybe 5-10% of the time I am occupied with 7dtd. It seems that some modders have a different perspective. For example when it come to terrain generation, I can hardly imagine that one would learn the stuff and take the time it takes to test settings over and over again, if they don't have a specific interest in terrain generation. I doubt someone would make all that effort just to get a pretty canyon in the game.

 
I don't want to learn. I want everything to be super easy, as easy as possible.
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*shrugs*

I had a working zombie in Mecanim in one evening of reading. I've already made over 60 edits and changes prepping for Ravenhearst. Was it a bit confusing at first? Sure. But its not impossible. And I'm sure I will learn RWG too. My team is excited to make a static map with random pois. We are planning lore and everything. Im sure Guppy will use it to his extreme advantage for Medieval Mod. Just hand me a tutorial and Im gold. Its all i ever really ask.

Things change and it sucks. I have to redo all my models, I have to reanimate over 30 entities in Mecanim. But when you love something its not really work. I enjoy the learning process, even though sphere and xyth will tell you Im awful at it lol.

I understand why you're discouraged, but I also know these changes are for the future, and it will allow us to make mods for years after Pimps have moved on. Our own Skyrim, or Minecraft. Endless possibilities. That alone excites me more than being upset at having to relearn.

And this is from someone who never opened an XML before 2016, and only installed Unity for the first time in 2017. This stuff is not that complicated.

 
I don't want to learn. I want everything to be super easy, as easy as possible.
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Exactly what's wrong with the world today. Everyone wants everything given to them without earning it. Because everyone is "special" and everyone deserves everything. No. No one is special no one deserves anything. You work for it, you earn it. Put in some effort then ask for help if needed. That's how the world is supposed to work.

Serializing a field to xml is technically easy. But, it can cause issues. These things have to be done slowly to make debugging easier.

Give them time stop being so demanding.

 
If everybody always just says "yeah I can do that with some advanced method" (and those who want to be able to do it without such a method are declared leeches and lazy and whatnot), it might occur to the devs that it's not really necessary to make modding more convenient. But that as well is just a thought and not an assumption.
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You completely missed what my post and 90% of what the posts on here are telling you.

Be happy TFP have done anything to make modding easier at all and stop complaining. If you spent half the time you have arguing why YOU are right and why it should all be handed to YOU so YOU don't have to think instead maybe picking up a tutorial or asking for help on the part that is stopping you then your project could have been well on its way by now.

This thread isn't going to make TFP change how they are doing things no matter how much you think it might.

 
I just learned Mecanim last night after being an old codger grumpster saying i didn't want to and holy ♥♥♥♥ its amazing and easy.
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I was same way back in 2004 working as back end web programmer for a news paper publisher. I was working with php to make website to integrate with the object-c program I made to convert the layout tool they used to PDF for use with php serving it. The paper Editor-in-ch heard of this new web frame work called django written in python I was grumble that sucks...But after bitching and moaning for a hour I dug into python and found it to be to this day my favorite lang to work in..

 
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