I've played since a11.5 and have seen a lot of changes over the years. Some I liked, some I hated, but what I absolutely love about the pimps is that they are not afraid to scrap an entire system that they worked hard to build because the players and devs felt it wasn't good enough. I just watched some preview videos for a18 and I see the skill system has been redone yet again. I might like it, I might not, but it takes serious dedication to create something new after all the work they've already put into the last few iterations. So, despite my whining about various mechanics, the pimps are absolute studs. Just thought I'd share.
PC A deep appreciation that the pimps aren't afraid to scrap and rebuild a game system
- Thread starter dex314
- Start date
SylenThunder
Community Moderator / IT Guru
Don't forget that TFP is breaking ground that no other game has ventured across. And even after years in development, none other has attempted. Basically every aspect of the game they are having to build from scratch. They have had a vision on how they want things to work from the beginning, and now some of the systems are finally starting to fall into that idea.
A17 was actually the biggest step towards a vision they have been discussing in depth since at least a10. I know there were many struggles about how to implement the restrictions on inventory, and am aware of some of the many processes they considered, but deemed inadequate or over-encumbering. The buff system has been much discussed as well as it's changed over the years.
Some of the changes that finally fell into place were due to changes in the Unity core, and some were just then finding a good method for linking different systems together in a way that worked.
You guys seem to forget that this is the Alpha phase of development. It's completely acceptable (and expected) that systems will be completely re-worked, trashed, created, changed, ect. This is the nature of the Alpha development phase.
Khulkhuum
New member
I am glad TFP decided to put time and effort on features they deem worthy of their time. It would be far less good if they went with what the players wanted, drenching themselves in guilt and forcing themselves to make a game they are not really into. They would quickly lose their motivation and stop working on this game, trying again with a new one.
7DTD would be another abandoned product, because there were too many problems, the vision strayed too far away from what was created and/or people felt hopeless for making any good improvements.
Don't get me wrong, i don't like some of the changes, but i am patient enough to see where all of this goes to. We have a dedicated Dev team and that's a good sign for the future.
7DTD would be another abandoned product, because there were too many problems, the vision strayed too far away from what was created and/or people felt hopeless for making any good improvements.
Don't get me wrong, i don't like some of the changes, but i am patient enough to see where all of this goes to. We have a dedicated Dev team and that's a good sign for the future.
OldManBrian
New member
I hated most of their changes in a17, but now it looks like they're course correcting so well and so much that I might not even need any mods in a18. (Other than the CompoPack of course.)
I really like that they try things and then aren't afraid to backtrack or try something else when it doesn't pan out. Considering that the game isn't released yet, they are doing exactly what they should be doing to find their feet considering they're pioneering a completely unique gaming experience.
I really like that they try things and then aren't afraid to backtrack or try something else when it doesn't pan out. Considering that the game isn't released yet, they are doing exactly what they should be doing to find their feet considering they're pioneering a completely unique gaming experience.
bitmapman
New member
Did they really "redo" it for A18? What they've shown looks more like a tweaking than a straight up refactoring to me. It's more like they reorganized it in order to facilitate specialization better, but most of the perks and the way the system works on the whole are pretty much the same as before.
Katitof
New member
All that means is they never had any idea how they would like the game to be up until now.
Building features update to update is perfectly fine and understandable, scrapping them and making them anew all the time is purest form of lack of direction and long term plan and design.
If game design were something you could plan perfectly ahead, abominations like "Fallout 67", "Simcity" or hundreds of other games that don't really work at release would not exist.
Your first sentence is absolutely correct. A lot of the details they didn't know and tried to find the best way through experimentation. And "best" doesn't even mean the objectively best, it is just the subjective best they want for their game. For example in their kickstarter they were talking about the player "protecting his farm of chickens" (paraphrased). If they had perfect knowledge what fits and what they can do with the hardware, they probably wouldn't have said this.
Do you really think you would have had the knowledge 7 years ago that that feature was not important enough now? Or whether to take LBD or a perk system? Or whether ziplines would fit?
In a speech one of the best game developers of the previous century (I think it was Sid Meier talking about "Civilization") was telling the story of how the first Civ just wasn't feeling right for some time in development and they just didn't know what was wrong and how to fix it. They tried a lot of things until someone had the idea to change some speed value a little bit and suddenly it clicked. The game was fun again. Why didn't Sid know this? How come they needed to experiment and just play around with it?
You think you are better than the developers of bethesda, EA, or TFP. Are you sure you can live up to that?
Last edited by a moderator:
OzHawkeye
Community Moderator
You'd rather they keep a system in place that wasn't doing the job intended for it? Granted, with perfect foresight you could ensure that every system that was started, fulfilled exactly the role it was intended for by the time it was finished, but no-one has perfect foresight.
I'm with the OP on this one, maybe the game goes Gold later than it otherwise would have because the Pimps were willing to experiment and re-iterate, but the game will be all the better, in the end, for it.
Roland
Moderator
A lot of studios seem to wait to release their games to Early Access until they only have about a year or two left indev. This means most of the major decisions and possible pathways that could be taken are done and all that is left to do is to polish and add content.
Everything we’ve experienced over the last years would’ve been done behind closed doors and A17 would’ve been the first version released— still not ready for gold but pretty much at the point where the game will remain as it is until gold. Most brand new players without any knowledge of previous alphas are loving A17. A18 is even more refined, optimized, looks better, and has tons of new content so it will feel like an update that you get from other Early Access titles.
TFP started their Early Access....early.
Everything we’ve experienced over the last years would’ve been done behind closed doors and A17 would’ve been the first version released— still not ready for gold but pretty much at the point where the game will remain as it is until gold. Most brand new players without any knowledge of previous alphas are loving A17. A18 is even more refined, optimized, looks better, and has tons of new content so it will feel like an update that you get from other Early Access titles.
TFP started their Early Access....early.
Pille
Prefab Creator and Great Galactic Imperator
I don't think you need perfect foresight to avoid never ending rebuilding. Some obviously wonky systems make me wonder why they were implemented in the first place. They could have known better in some cases, even without being precogs. It's almost as if they would have little experience with such large-scale projects. If I didn't know any better, I would even say that 7days is their first big game and that some of the vicissitudes of development are the result of this circumstance.
Also, "Wo gehobelt wird, da fallen Spنne" (Good luck translating this german proverb^^).To me rebuilding stuff from scratch is ok as long as the end result doesn't suffer from attitudes like 'oh no 7 days is already x years in development, time to finish at any price'. In such cases, time used for reiterations might have been better invested in refinements of existing systems. If I recall correctly, TFP said they would continue to add feature even after the end of the alpha phase. So the possible loss of time due to scraping and reimplementing features is nothing I am really worried about, unlike other things...
Last edited by a moderator:
one thing i do miss from A16 are the cone like traps that dismembered the legs from regular zombies.
maybe these could come back but instead of dismembering the legs it could have nails coming out where zombies would get stuck.
i like the building aspect of this game and love to have more options instead of having to resort to mods.
IF im going to have to level up by killing zombies...
then i would go play State of decay 2 or dead rising. where IMHO is more fun to be killing zombies.
and i just want to shoot zombies then ill go play left for dead and be done with it.
the building aspect and setting traps for zombies is fun also.
maybe these could come back but instead of dismembering the legs it could have nails coming out where zombies would get stuck.
i like the building aspect of this game and love to have more options instead of having to resort to mods.
IF im going to have to level up by killing zombies...
then i would go play State of decay 2 or dead rising. where IMHO is more fun to be killing zombies.
and i just want to shoot zombies then ill go play left for dead and be done with it.
the building aspect and setting traps for zombies is fun also.
hotpoon
New member
...Or Dying Light.
The unique selling point of this game is the voxel system without the blocky Minecraft-esque graphics, so I'd agree, I think more focus need to go to the building system. One of the more unique parts of this game is the ability to build a horde base and see how its design and traps hold up. Currently the broken AI that can see through walls and all focus on one block at a time, all but ruins that. If I were the Pimps, fixing that would be priority #1. As you say, there are better games for straight up zombie bashing.
SylenThunder
Community Moderator / IT Guru
Actually, it's been in Alpha for a perfectly normal amount of time. AAA studios with teams of several hundred developers will spen on average 5-7 years in Alpha on a fresh title that isn't copying core code and assets from something else.
The difference....
With 7 Days you've been able to be a part of it from Day 1. With other games, you don't get to join in until they are much closer to Beta, or after the second Beta stage.
So it may seem that 7 Days has been in development for too long, but it actually hasn't. You're seeing stages of development that are typically hidden from the public eyes where systems are tested and re-designed over and over until they fit what the developer is looking to achieve. Some systems were re-designed because of changes to updates in the game engine that allowed for further expansion than the previous system did.
Completely false. AAA games can be made in a few years. Redesigning game features over and over again is not part of normal game design. It's called development hell. It is indicative of lack of leadership and vision in the design studio. They can't decide what features to put in the game, so they're making it up as they go along and seeing what works. The features of the game should be decided before labour time is wasted on creating them. Sometimes redesign is necessary but not to this extent.
It is quite painful to see the developers flop around ineffectually. It's funny to see people looking at the failures of the dev team and praising for them. There is always a group of company fan boys on every forum.
Roland
Moderator
Could you give some examples that aren't sequels or redesigns of an existing IP?
What exactly do you see in the game that has been completely redesigned over and over again?
Why follow something that is painful for you? Anyone with a different perspective than you gets labeled in a way that you can just dismiss what they have to say out of hand without really considering it? Do you have evidence to bolster your claims instead of trying to bolster your perspective by tearing down opposition through name calling?
I know they have had an overall general goal for the features they want but have been experimenting with the details. For example, they always wanted player progression but they have experimented with the type of progression and the balancing and organization of abilities within that progression. They have never removed progression completely and then re-implemented it. Instead they have applied it in different ways.
They did flounder in regards to books and schematics but ironically that came from doggedly sticking to their original plan to phase books out in favor of perks. It was only during the playtesting of A17 by the larger customer base that they acknowledged that for a large majority the removal of books and schematics hurt exploration. They weren't focused on exploration in regards to books. They were focused on player progression and they wanted perks for that and it created a sort of blindspot for the usefulness of books beyond player progression. So in A18 they are bringing books back in a big way but not because they couldn't make up their minds and didn't have any idea what they wanted to do.
They are certainly within their rights to tinker with their game and as long as they have the funds to keep the project moving forward to completion, they aren't in development hell. Development hell is more than just floundering design-wise. It is also floundering budget-wise. They are still well within budget to complete the game to the standards they want.
Last edited by a moderator:
Guppycur
Well-known member
I don't see the issue. Pimps could have shoved some features in a16 and said "done". Instead they're trying new stuff, seeing what works, scrapping stuff that doesn't and have plans to add even more stuff they don't have to.
...why do people want the development to end so badly?
Short dev time = fewer polished features and some half assedness
Long dev time = more polished features that are tested tried and true
...if you want a shorter dev time, load a17 and freeze it there.
...why do people want the development to end so badly?
Short dev time = fewer polished features and some half assedness
Long dev time = more polished features that are tested tried and true
...if you want a shorter dev time, load a17 and freeze it there.