2.6 Difficulty Changes

[Riamus]

It also doesn't mean it cannot work. ARK and 7D2D are two different games but both have hunger and thirst mechanics. A better example would be using non conventional control schemes such as using unusual inventory or character controls. These things matter because it helps make the game intuitive and easy to understand and pickup.

You do understand that those are entirely different things. Those can work in most games if they want them to. We are talking about blocking players from being able to destroy their way into a POI in a game that is about destroying things. Just because that works fine in a game where you can't destroy your way into a POI doesn't mean it's a good option for a game where you can destroy your way into a POI. The game styles are different and just because it's fine in one doesn't make it fine in the other. That's very different from having a hunger and thirst mechanic... unless you want to compare that with two games that are different in play styles -- adding hunger and thirst to a sandbox building sim where you're just building stuff wouldn't really be a good option in most cases. It just doesn't work with that kind of game unless they are adding a whole life sim system to it and it isn't just about building.

 

[Kyoji]

You do understand that those are entirely different things. Those can work in most games if they want them to. We are talking about blocking players from being able to destroy their way into a POI in a game that is about destroying things. Just because that works fine in a game where you can't destroy your way into a POI doesn't mean it's a good option for a game where you can destroy your way into a POI. The game styles are different and just because it's fine in one doesn't make it fine in the other. That's very different from having a hunger and thirst mechanic... unless you want to compare that with two games that are different in play styles -- adding hunger and thirst to a sandbox building sim where you're just building stuff wouldn't really be a good option in most cases. It just doesn't work with that kind of game unless they are adding a whole life sim system to it and it isn't just about building.

meganoth mentioned that as a potential byproduct solution which is literally the most extreme interpretation of balancing loot rooms. If you think about it I am sure you could come up with at least a few solutions you would be fine with, assuming you could snap your fingers and have it done as I have already said I don't think it's necessarily worth the development time for the level of issue it resolves.

My point generally was that people would naturally assume better loot in military and police compounds which I think is a trend in these types of games. While it may be a bit more difficult to balance than other games due to the voxel nature of the game I do not think it to be difficult either. Getting rid of loot rooms, beefing up zombie spawns (outside of quests) and balancing loot locations within the POI would largely fix the issue. Now whether it's worth the development time to do all that I would say not at the moment, but it is a dream of mine to be sure.

 

[meganoth]

There are a myriad of ways to make it harder for people to "cheese" POIs.

• Put the loot rooms in more centralized areas that are not broken with 2 blocks and toughen loot rooms with more dense blocks (higher HP such as concrete) or simply remove loot rooms and spread the loot throughout the POI. Granted I know either option would be time consuming but just showing it is possible.

You are offering a solution which you yourself know TFP won't implement because it would take too much time and effort.

• Add hazards around the loot rooms that require a multi-stage task throughout high tier POIs to resolve such as turning off gas valves to stop the flow of toxic fumes in the loot room, or that can be mitigated/negated with medication or higher end gear. Even things such as blocking doorways with broken pipes that are on fire would push people to go find the valve to turn off the fire.

Assuming there is a simple way to that loot room currently ( for example just behind an outer wall or on the roof) you would need to fill a complete wall or even 5 sides with fire hazards. Also seems a bit strange to have fire hazards almost in any POI and always where the loot room is.

• Bulk up zombie spawns in or around the loot room and do not remove zombie spawns when there is no quest available. A simple solution is simply making it harder to get the loot. Throw in some "fixed" stage zombies such as feral wights and it would be very challenging for anyone in the first few days to run in loot and get out unscathed.

Fixed zombie spawns is a bad idea. Low level characters would get killed in low tier POIs even when following the designated path. Also needs lots and lots of POIs be modified which is a no-go for a problem you yourself say is not that massive.

Again, I don't think it is a massive issue, but just showing that it could be done. For the .0001% that would try and possibly even get some rare and high end loot from it? Sure, why not. It's a single player game. If you want to try and find a way to do that then whatever. So long as it is difficult enough to push people away from such things generally I don't see it as a problem, especially not one that is worse than going into a military stash and getting a pipe weapon.

I agree to this, even though I have serious doubts about: "It's a single player game."

 

[theFlu]

Low level characters would get killed in low tier POIs even when following the designated path.

"Add things to prevent lowbies from looting box."
=>
"But that would prevent lowbies from looting box!!"

..

Yes?

 

[bdubyah]

Put the loot rooms in more centralized areas that are not broken with 2 blocks and toughen loot rooms with more dense blocks (higher HP such as concrete) or simply remove loot rooms and spread the loot throughout the POI. Granted I know either option would be time consuming but just showing it is possible.

The spreading loot throughout the POI is the route I've taken with most all custom POIs I've made. Then people always think the POI doesn't have proper loot for its tier since they don't see the big pile at the end. Just shows how short their memory is, or that they aren't very thorough in looting. Haha.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

Something that could have been done prior regarding loot containers, and loot rooms, before the great divide, was a property mechanic that was a part of the game. It still has a possibility to be done using preset mechanics.

Block downgrade. Safes and loot containers could have been disguised in any other block. Unless the parent were destroyed it would not show or
highlight. Loot, for loot rooms, could have then been dispersed throughout a poi by giving it a Randomized property upon poi generation.
Property OnDestroy: examples in game: Stumps to honey, nest to eggs and feathers, trees to seeds. Randomblock to lootcontainer could be added.

Loot containers can still be randomized under or behind other furniture, without the obvious warped panel. Tier could be the regulator, for what
type and how many containers would render per poi volume area meaning the lot, Random loot helper. I am thinking of the positions of stones, nests stumps etc, per restart of the same map. It could open the possibility of a poi lot having buried treasure in the lot's yard. Reusing quest treasure block.

Break the right block, and the LOD of the container becomes available to loot. It would still have the possibility of being empty, through
randomness.

For some of the larger containers, they could be scaled down to single block single dim, for visual sake or use the multiblock destruction proposed
prior.

On the backend, the found treasure maps, can point to a paranoid pete or petunia's survival horde that is in a poi with random block from above notes.

Another can have the map message point to a higher tier poi: the last known location of the writer's family member, destroy a dead body that has a key and the hunt begins, because the key could be the initiator just like the quest flags, but only resetting random blocks within the poi lot area. So
each time a body with a map or key or whatever Macguffin you want to use is found loot is guaranteed but not necessarily in an obvious location.

 

[Kyoji]

You are offering a solution which you yourself know TFP won't implement because it would take too much time and effort.

It's fun to discuss at least for me anyway. Plus maybe someone will think of a creative way to make it work better and more efficiently.

Assuming there is a simple way to that loot room currently ( for example just behind an outer wall or on the roof) you would need to fill a complete wall or even 5 sides with fire hazards. Also seems a bit strange to have fire hazards almost in any POI and always where the loot room is.

I think having concrete walls in a centralized location within the POI would suffice in conjunction with a fire hazard by the loot entrance that could perhaps be behind bars or bulletproof glass as a rough example. The hazard in my mind was a toxic gas leak that would need to be turned off before entering. But yes having multiple hazards in the same area could be jarring.

Fixed zombie spawns is a bad idea. Low level characters would get killed in low tier POIs even when following the designated path. Also needs lots and lots of POIs be modified which is a no-go for a problem you yourself say is not that massive.

The entire discussion is for high tier POIs that offer better loot, perhaps a stage increase compared to the current stage or a special loot container such as a Police Locker or Military Gun Crate that would utilize the fixed spawns. So it wouldn't effect most POIs. Just a handful of them.

Picture a Norad style location like Red Mesa where they have a few high tier military gun chests inside where you may find military grade weapons but to reach the area with said chest it's inside a room that has been locked down due to a toxic gas leak and you have to turn off the gas before entering or you take damage. The area has special spawns that start at feral wight and irradiated cops and scales up as you progress in the game stages. Such special POIs would naturally have more controlled room environments to make it naturally more difficult and would be localized to active military bases and perhaps city sized police stations that each would offer respective gear.

You would know where to go to find some top gear but it will take a lot of effort and muscle to make it happen.

 

[meganoth]

"Add things to prevent lowbies from looting box."
=>
"But that would prevent lowbies from looting box!!"

..

Yes?

My point was, if a low-level player works through a higher-end POI he deserves the end loot even if the POI is above his level. There is no problem in scaling the enemies in a POI upwards on the whole, but just making the end loot room a spike of unexpected difficulty is surprising in a bad way

But I may be wrong here. Kyoji's example of Red Mesa doesn't sound so bad. Now I still think that is a lot of effort just to make the weapon caches a little more immersive.

 

[theFlu]

There is no problem in scaling the enemies in a POI upwards on the whole, but just making the end loot room a spike of unexpected difficulty is surprising in a bad way

I do kinda agree with the design logic you're using, but we're kinda lost in the vagueness.
The chain of thought that got us here "Cop shops should contain Cop loot" => "Breaks progression for cheesers" => "Prevent cheesing by making the main fight actually a test of (skill/ability)".

I don't see that causing a problem with difficulty; the player who is Fit for the loot, is Fit for the boss fight. If the rest of the POI is unreasonably easy, then it should probably be scaled up to match.

That's kinda what I'd suggest if I were to fix it; I'd pick the goal to be "minimum loot in a cop shop is pistol-tier firearms". That means I'd have to limit them to pistol-tier progression - actually somewhat difficult. Probably means that any cop shop is something like Tier 3 or above. Maybe even T4. Making those "actually difficult" shouldn't be controversial.

Whether fixing all of the possible cheese is worth the effort, or even possible, I don't know. But personally I think the potential for cheesing is better than the certainty of stone spears.

EDIT to add:
And I don't think "pistol tier" loot, esp in Q1s, is so brokenly powerful that it'd actually break progression. It's for immersion mostly, we could set the loot tables to drop only Q1 under whatever threshold. (It'd need separate containers to set up like that, but seems doable...)