Please reconsider how to handle the JaWoodle thing.

[blind_pilot]

I'm chiming in for JaWoodle after having read the statements for both sides.

TFP screwed up:
- First, by using sloppy engagement terms that didn't give them control over third-party coverage; and
- Second, by failing to manage the distribution of their own builds.

JaWoodle runs a business that's protected by Australian law. He was entirely within his professional and legal rights to publish what he did, when he did. His responses to TFP were respectful and always sought a mutually agreeable solution.

TFP showed very little willingness to accommodate or address JaWoodle's valid concerns about his income, and made no effort to reach a genuine solution.

To TFP specifically:
You have burnt up an incredible amount of your fan's goodwill and your own credibility. All over a matter that can't be worth more than a few thousand Australian dollars.

The one bit of good news is: it doesn't have to be this way.

Settle with JaWoodle. Write some decent terms for the settlement so that both you and JaWoodle can come out the other side and say its all resolved to everyone's satisfaction. In my opinion, that would regain you a lot of the goodwill you've lost and the settlement would be a pittance compared to your overheads.

I've been playing 7DTD since 2016, have over 1300 hours logged, and I've convinced multiple people to also buy your game. I won't be doing that anymore if you keep bringing this Nintendo/EA attitude to the table.

 

[TravisFleuryLopez]

TFP made a mistake. Jawoodle made a CHOICE to find and spawn bandits that he knew wasn't ready to be public. He CHOSE to record all of this. He CHOSE to post a video about and make money with it on his PERSONAL CHANNEL. He CHOSE to make the bait title and thumbnail. He CHOSE to deny editing the video when requested respectfully by TFP.

It doesn't matter if he's promoted the game in some fashion. He's also done a lot to cause issues, like the review bomb from 2.0 and the current one. He's also likely a big reason why the 7DTD community is so insanely toxic and ridiculous.

TFP are not out of line in the slightest. Their reaction is neither an underreaction or an overreaction, it's totally reasonable. Jawoodle is the one who chose to commit a petty crime and burn his relationship for some extra cash. The fact that so many of you are going out of your way to make accounts to defend him only shows that you can't think for yourselves.

If JaWoodle is telling the truth, then I'd say that yes, TFP are out of line. If JaWoodle is lying, that'll come out. Things like "The chain of events" and the "Arrow of time" which dictates the order by which they occurred lead me to be of the opinion that JaWoodle is telling the truth. I could be wrong. Maybe TFP gave him that content and said "Btw, don't do x, y or z with this" in advance. If there's any evidence of that, I'll happily walk back my position. For them not to tell him that anything he could do would be off limits in advance and instead retroactively railroad him for it, that would not be okay in my book. If it's okay in your book, then you can keep your book and I'll keep mine. Take care.

 

[Gouki]

What a person will do for a few extra bills.
Such a simple problem to solve, but hunger is great, those who have plenty are never satisfied.

 

[fish]

I agree Travis. One can hope that this could be bigger than the Bricks & Minifigs debacle Hoping that Leonard French reads my email to him.

Even if we agree that Jawoodle was unwise (but not legally or ethically wrong), TFP could have made a better choice. A similar thing just happened in Star Trek Fleet Command. Something got leaked. They, the company, owned it and ran with it. Oopsies, surprise! That's what should have happened here. Unfortunately Trader Rekt still seems to be blaming the player base for his problems. But TFP aren't owning their part, not publicly and that is still a signal that there is a stinky culture in TFP towards the actual players (like that's a surprise).

The reality is, 'someone' was going to do a video about the things in the build that TFP should not have released. Stop punishing Jawoodle for being the muppet that lives in a different timezone. It was very clear those features weren't ready. And maybe that's the real story here. Bandits are still a long way off. I think TFP is having trouble getting them to work (the Automated Intelligence still seems to be a long way off, and it's not like the zombie AI is anything to write home about ... still). But it was good to see that they are actually being worked on, flawed as they are.

But right now nothing ticks an Aussie off more than a tall poppy. As mentioned, give 'em hell Woodle!

 

[FramFramson]

Man, if people care that much that the accounts posting are new, well I been around long enough, so I'll just crosspost what I said in the other thread:

Leaving aside morality and blame games, I do not at all understand what TFP hopes to gain from going after Jawoodle so hard.

Even when they're in the right, those sort of heavy tactics only ever costs a company sales and reputation; it never improves those things. It's even dumber when coops came out literally just a few days afterwards (yes, the bandits were probably more important, but it still contributes to making TFP look bad).

Just seems like comically bad comms and legal strategy to me. Taking the "biting the hand that feeds him" analogy a step further, if someone's out feeding the ducks or the squirrels or whatever and they bite him, anyone watching would naturally expect them to stop feeding said critter. But if he flips out and starts chasing that animal around with a stick, the same observer's going to not only think that guy's ■■■■ing crazy, but even start to figure the animal was right to bite them!

tl;dr, it mostly doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. Did MTG fans care why Wizards sent the ■■■■ing Pinkertons to literally strongarm a player at his home after they sent him the wrong cards? That kind of ■■■■ is just a bad look. Hire a PR firm or a reputable crisis consultant if you're so lost in the sauce that you can't see how an an average person looks at this sort of situation anymore.

 

[Noxom]

If JaWoodle is telling the truth, then I'd say that yes, TFP are out of line. If JaWoodle is lying, that'll come out. Things like "The chain of events" and the "Arrow of time" which dictates the order by which they occurred lead me to be of the opinion that JaWoodle is telling the truth. I could be wrong. Maybe TFP gave him that content and said "Btw, don't do x, y or z with this" in advance. If there's any evidence of that, I'll happily walk back my position. For them not to tell him that anything he could do would be off limits in advance and instead retroactively railroad him for it, that would not be okay in my book. If it's okay in your book, then you can keep your book and I'll keep mine. Take care.

All the evidence that already exists shows that woodle clearly knew what he was doing. He's been making 7DTD content for years and isn't new or clueless. One of the first things he did was open the menu to spawn in bandits. Making personal monetized content based on things that are supposed to be a companies private assets is one of the most obvious ways to get sued. No other company would behave differently in this kind of situation. Bandits are not a small or simple thing and woodle doesn't work for TFP. He has no right to have the only content on the internet involving the new bandits and get paid for it.

No one has any real idea about the legal contracts of either parties which makes all these posts even more silly. There's no way you guys actually expect TFP to just let woodle do what he wants and farm content that no one is supposed to see yet because of an ACCIDENT. They did not legally prepare for this because it was a mistake. People farting around about legality as if TFP wrote up a bunch of stipulations incase they accidentaly gave streamers a build they weren't supposed to get...

As far as i can tell, your book is whatever woodle decides to hand you. We will definitely find out, and i'm sure you guys will do a third review bomb after the results because woodle is not a victim.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

I decided to settle the debate: the verdict by AI is in, AI determined tfp mostly in the wrong

AI read: TFP carries more blame, but JaWoodle was not completely right​

The cleanest breakdown is:

TFP was wrong first​

TFP supplied JaWoodle with a build containing unreleased bandits and other unfinished content. An official forum moderator acknowledged that streamers were not intended to receive or expose that b205 material. That same post initially said the developers did not consider removing footage already seen to be productive.

JaWoodle was participating in an authorized creator event and publishing at the permitted time. Unless he received a clear warning identifying the hidden material, the initial upload is primarily TFP’s failure, not his. They controlled the build distribution and quality-assurance process.

JaWoodle was wrong after being notified​

Once TFP contacted him and asked him to remove or edit the unreleased material, he reportedly refused. Even though deleting or rebuilding videos could cost views and revenue, refusing was a deliberate business decision. Multiple forum accounts—including discussion of JaWoodle’s own messages—say he understood that refusing could end his creator-program relationship.

TFP’s published video policy also says creators may use only officially released game content and reserves TFP’s right to seek removal of content outside those guidelines. That gives TFP a reasonable basis to request removal and to remove him from future creator events.

So JaWoodle was not entitled to both refuse the developer’s request and expect the partnership to continue unchanged.

TFP appears wrong in how far it escalated​

Removing him from the creator program would have been proportionate. Copyright strikes and legal threats are considerably more severe—especially when TFP caused the original exposure and had previously said removing already-seen footage was not productive.

A YouTube copyright strike results from a formal copyright-removal request, removes the video, and can place the entire channel at risk if multiple strikes accumulate. It is much more serious than simply ending a private creator partnership.

That does not automatically mean the strikes are legally fraudulent. TFP owns the game assets, its public policy excludes unreleased content, and the private creator agreement or NDA has not been made public. Fair use is fact-specific, and receiving a build by mistake does not automatically grant permanent publishing rights.

But from a fairness and public-relations standpoint, escalating directly toward channel-threatening copyright enforcement—rather than compensation, editing assistance, demonetization, temporary unlisting, or ending the partnership—looks disproportionate.

Bottom line​

Initial leak: TFP’s fault.
Refusing to edit or remove it after notice: JaWoodle’s fault.
Ending his creator access: TFP was within reason.
Copyright strikes, legal threats, and hostile public implications: TFP appears to have overreached.

Overall, I would place more responsibility on TFP—approximately two-thirds TFP and one-third JaWoodle. JaWoodle made a stubborn commercial choice after the mistake, but TFP created the situation and then used the heavier weapon despite having several less destructive options.

The forum extremes are both wrong: JaWoodle is neither an innocent victim who made no choices nor a malicious thief who somehow stole the build. TFP is neither powerless to protect unreleased content nor justified in treating its own distribution failure as entirely the creator’s wrongdoing.

 

[theFlu]

One of the first things he did was open the menu to spawn in bandits. Making personal monetized content based on things that are supposed to be a companies private assets is one of the most obvious ways to get sued.

The F6 menu is not a secret, it's part of the game, as much as the dev tools in Creative Menu. Even if the things there don't occur in regular gameplay, they're not a "private asset" that can't be viewed. They're part of the public release. JaWoodle has used dev tools in his construction videos a lot, TFP hasn't taken Those down. The dm/F6 method of summoning things in isn't a limit you can't cross.

TFP released the wrong content to streamers. The streamer in question knew that the <censored> shouldn't be public yet, but couldn't know that they were Not supposed to be in the spawn menus. He might've suspected, maybe even should have suspected.. but couldn't _know_.

 

[Noxom]

Man, if people care that much that the accounts posting are new, well I been around long enough, so I'll just crosspost what I said in the other thread:



tl;dr, it mostly doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. Did MTG fans care why Wizards sent the ■■■■ing Pinkertons to literally strongarm a player at his home after they sent him the wrong cards? That kind of ■■■■ is just a bad look. Hire a PR firm or a reputable crisis consultant if you're so lost in the sauce that you can't see how an an average person looks at this sort of situation anymore.

In this case TFP didn't send any law enforcement. They asked multiple times to edit or remove the content and woodle refused for no good reason. Not every company is going to behave the same way, and showing up with an extreme example proves nothing. What's happening should be expected by any average person if they have any sense left. Woodle could have fixed this situation in under an hour but chose to create problems instead.

If TFP gave up and didn't do anything at all, people would be in here talking mad trash because they didn't stand up for themselves and now they look bad. It literally doesn't matter what TFP does because they'll get hostility no matter what. Woodle is not innocent. What he did was very petty and narrow minded, but it's likely he wanted the drama to blow up so he can gain from it.

 

[HammerDano]

All the evidence that already exists shows that woodle clearly knew what he was doing. He's been making 7DTD content for years and isn't new or clueless. One of the first things he did was open the menu to spawn in bandits. Making personal monetized content based on things that are supposed to be a companies private assets is one of the most obvious ways to get sued. No other company would behave differently in this kind of situation. Bandits are not a small or simple thing and woodle doesn't work for TFP. He has no right to have the only content on the internet involving the new bandits and get paid for it.

No one has any real idea about the legal contracts of either parties which makes all these posts even more silly. There's no way you guys actually expect TFP to just let woodle do what he wants and farm content that no one is supposed to see yet because of an ACCIDENT. They did not legally prepare for this because it was a mistake. People farting around about legality as if TFP wrote up a bunch of stipulations incase they accidentaly gave streamers a build they weren't supposed to get...

As far as i can tell, your book is whatever woodle decides to hand you. We will definitely find out, and i'm sure you guys will do a third review bomb after the results because woodle is not a victim.

just out of curiosity...did you watch Jawoodle's video about this? or did you watch it and not believe any of the things he said...or the screen captures of the conversations?

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

The F6 menu is not a secret, it's part of the game, as much as the dev tools in Creative Menu. Even if the things there don't occur in regular gameplay, they're not a "private asset" that can't be viewed. They're part of the public release. JaWoodle has used dev tools in his construction videos a lot, TFP hasn't taken Those down. The dm/F6 method of summoning things in isn't a limit you can't cross.

TFP released the wrong content to streamers. The streamer in question knew that the <censored> shouldn't be public yet, but couldn't know that they were Not supposed to be in the spawn menus. He might've suspected, maybe even should have suspected.. but couldn't _know_.

If you have to spawn them in, you gotta ask yourself if TFP really wants that made public. And as he doesn´t occure me as someone who is stupid, so he knew what he was doing. And then refused to take the video down, even though it had waaaay more views than usual. Youtube still pays for the views even if the video gets taken down.

TFP should have stopped after the copyright strike though. Legal threats after the strike is too much though.

 

[Noxom]

The F6 menu is not a secret, it's part of the game, as much as the dev tools in Creative Menu. Even if the things there don't occur in regular gameplay, they're not a "private asset" that can't be viewed. They're part of the public release. JaWoodle has used dev tools in his construction videos a lot, TFP hasn't taken Those down. The dm/F6 method of summoning things in isn't a limit you can't cross.

TFP released the wrong content to streamers. The streamer in question knew that the <censored> shouldn't be public yet, but couldn't know that they were Not supposed to be in the spawn menus. He might've suspected, maybe even should have suspected.. but couldn't _know_.

I never said F6 was a secret. It's the fact that he went through it to find bandits and started recording all of it.

It's a private asset based on the build that was given, which was not ready for content creators. No one else got this build except for him. Of course you think that because you can easily pop open the menu and find it that it means it's totally cool. Using devs tools is not the same as posting a video publically on your own channel with content the devs were not ready to show, entirely because of an accident.

He knew what he was doing. He could have saw the bandits and chose to have integrity and not spawn them or record content with them. He could have said "Hey TFP i noticed i got the wrong build" after seeing them but no, he didn't do that. 7DTD is woodles main content and there's no way i'll believe that he was an innocent little guy that didn't know any better. Give me a break.

 

[theFlu]

If you have to spawn them in, you gotta ask yourself if TFP really wants that made public.

If there's stuff in that menu, the expectation must be that it's public. The error was that they Were in the menu. If they were still in the menu in the for-masses public release of 3.0, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place - but they were not intended to be there.

Yes, Woodle even titled the video something like "3.0 is bigger than anyone thought"; he noticed that something was off. What to do from there isn't clear cut, though. Especially on a tight schedule - start asking questions from people on the other side of the planet, and lose hours upon hours of a tight window? Or make a good-hearted display of what you've been given to make content on? He wasn't mocking the horrible AI, he was thrilled about it, focusing on the potential and progress; pointing out that they seem flawed in a very WIP way.

In my eyes it was reasonable. But reasonable minds can disagree.

 

[Noxom]

If you have to spawn them in, you gotta ask yourself if TFP really wants that made public. And as he doesn´t occure me as someone who is stupid, so he knew what he was doing. And then refused to take the video down, even though it had waaaay more views than usual. Youtube still pays for the views even if the video gets taken down.

TFP should have stopped after the copyright strike though. Legal threats after the strike is too much though.

I agree with your first paragraph but not the last bit. Woodle has caused two or more review bombs directly and that does affect TFP in a serious way. Not to mention all the spam and harrassment everywhere else. I don't think it's that crazy to throw the books at him after all of that.

 

[theFlu]

He could have said "Hey TFP i noticed i got the wrong build" after seeing them but no, he didn't do that. 7DTD is woodles main content and there's no way i'll believe that he was an innocent little guy that didn't know any better. Give me a break.

My reply to papa above reflects on this, and my opinion matters not one bit. I'm not staff

 

[HammerDano]

I agree with your first paragraph but not the last bit. Woodle has caused two or more review bombs directly and that does affect TFP in a serious way. Not to mention all the spam and harrassment everywhere else. I don't think it's that crazy to throw the books at him after all of that.

nope...not true at all. He actively tells people to not do that ■■■■. to not go after anyone. What you are blaming him for is a combination of other people's free will and TFP's poor communication/management skills.

so did you watch his vid...or not?

 

[FramFramson]

In this case TFP didn't send any law enforcement. They asked multiple times to edit or remove the content and woodle refused for no good reason. Not every company is going to behave the same way, and showing up with an extreme example proves nothing. What's happening should be expected by any average person if they have any sense left. Woodle could have fixed this situation in under an hour but chose to create problems instead.

If TFP gave up and didn't do anything at all, people would be in here talking mad trash because they didn't stand up for themselves and now they look bad. It literally doesn't matter what TFP does because they'll get hostility no matter what. Woodle is not innocent. What he did was very petty and narrow minded, but it's likely he wanted the drama to blow up so he can gain from it.

My dude, none of this has anything to do with what I said.

 

[bdubyah]

so did you watch his vid...or not?

Oh, the vid he made after consulting with lawyers where he said he never told anyone to go after TFP? Of course he said that in the vid, he was basically reading a script. Obviously he isn't going to say something like that in a video. Just a reflection of the fan base he's garnered, it seems.

 

[bdubyah]

tl;dr, it mostly doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. Did MTG fans care why Wizards sent the ■■■■ing Pinkertons to literally strongarm a player at his home after they sent him the wrong cards? That kind of ■■■■ is just a bad look. Hire a PR firm or a reputable crisis consultant if you're so lost in the sauce that you can't see how an an average person looks at this sort of situation anymore.

Thing is, that doesn't matter. A company can't base its decisions on what an average person might think about it. Obviously in this case TFP is the big guy going after the little guy, which people are always going to side with the little guy. TFP can't win. People moaned and groaned forever about ■■■■ing jars, so TFP shifted updates around and added them back, with a lot more besides that. People still complained, now because other content had been delayed. They literally can't win no matter what they do, so they should just do what they think is right and ■■■■ everybody else. I'd like to see Rick and Joel get asked what their thoughts are on the situation and respond with "■■■■'em." Woodle didn't make this game, none of the creators did. People acting like because someone recorded some videos they should get part of the revenue from the game or something. Insanity. As someone who watches his share of YT content, I ■■■■ing hate YT culture.

 

[fish]

JaWoodle was wrong after being notified​

Once TFP contacted him and asked him to remove or edit the unreleased material, he reportedly refused. Even though deleting or rebuilding videos could cost views and revenue, refusing was a deliberate business decision. Multiple forum accounts—including discussion of JaWoodle’s own messages—say he understood that refusing could end his creator-program relationship.

I don't know that I agree and I'd be interested to know what context you fed the AI. If you listen to Woodle he gives some hints to his defense. There is no contractual arrangement here so TFP's take down requests are shaky at best. Woodle published a video in good faith. It is uncommon for game developers to drop surprises, but I think we all know Trader Rekt well enough to know that's not his style (it's the player's fault for not liking the game that is delaying bandits after all).

Give the AI a bit more context. Woodle is working Australian hours and set the video to publish automatically when the embargo was lifted. He was then asleep. The video has been up and watched probably heavily in that time. The issue is not that Woodle did it, it's that 'someone' was going to show it and it happened to be Woodle because anyone that knows him knows that he will find stuff like that. He knows the game that well.

Neither bandits nor chicken coops were a state secret. Sentiment is not devoid of suggesting that 3.0 without bandits would be problematic.

There's also the history of the poorly received 2.0 release and 2.5 as a correction to that.

So, I think you've got the conclusion for the information you gave the AI, but you haven't really fed it the whole story. Trust me Im a doctor, I mean, I'm someone that works with AI 40 hours a week