I miss Bloodmoon's with a defined horde population vs all night long

[Vaeliorin]

We used to have a total number of zeds based on day/gamestage. that was balanced. you could kill them quickly before the day broke, or if you didnt, they would be waiting for you once the sun came up and until you exhausted the total zeds. that is balanced.

If that was the case, it was before my time, and I started in A16. In my experience, there was a total number of zombies, but once daylight came, nothing new would spawn beyond what was already there (much like it is now.)

There did used to be a max number of zombies, which is what I miss, just because as it is now, the first few horde nights become a bit tedious, in my opinion. Also, it felt like an accomplishment to finish off the whole horde before the night was over.

 

[MiTHMoN]

the player can encounter 8 - 300 zeds depending on speed to kill which is manipulating game difficulty completely outside of the gamestage/day window. That isnt BALANCED that is my entire point lol.

It's literally a sandbox game. On days 1-6 a player can kill 8 zombies, or they can kill 300. It's literally up to the player.
Blood moons are no different. If you want to fight less zombies, you can. And the less you kill, the less exp and loot you get.

I have never once, in all of my years of playing 7dtd (what, like 12 years on-and-off?) hidden from a blood moon in a box like you have. The game forces you to *find* zombies on normal days. You have to seek them out. It rewards you with taking on bigger POIs by giving you higher density of zombies, and it rewards you on blood moons by giving you higher density of zombies that constantly come to you. It's like free meals with delivery.

What you're essentially saying is, that some players can kill more zombies than you can, and you don't like that. So you choose not to engage with it at all. So at that point, just change your settings.

You can turn the number of zombies up (so more than 8 spawn at a time) if you want more "challenge". But clearly you want the game to be easier. You want shorter blood moon duration. So you can change the night length. The option is yours.

You've been making excuses for unrelated things this whole thread, and I'm being direct with you, and in return you're just condescending.

If your settings are too difficult for you, or you find them unpleasant and unenjoyable, change them.

You seem to have this narrative that "each player fighting 100 zombies is fair", but that's not how the game works, and as far as I know never worked that way. Previous versions had it where, the number of zombies that spawned per player depended on the player's level. So if you were level 25 on day 7, you'd get more zombies than a player who was level 1. So the game punished you for not leveling up fast enough by giving you less zombies to kill. You were rewarded every 7 days based on how fast you leveled. So if you level slow, you fight less zombies, and you gain less exp from them.

If you are purposely keeping your level low, which it seems you are, then why are you even doing blood moon at all? Blood moon is delivering you zombies to kill for free, and it gives you a time limit to kill as many as you can, as fast as you can. If you don't want to kill any, then why are you playing with blood moon enabled at all?

If you wanted this game to be a tower defense with pre-determined wave counts, it's not and as far as I know it has never been. At least for the last few years it's spawned zombies based on the player's level. So, like I said, a level 1 player won't face the same amount/quality of enemies as a level 25 player will, even if it's night 7 for both of them.

 

[Uncle Al]

If you wanted this game to be a tower defense with pre-determined wave counts, it's not and as far as I know it has never been. At least for the last few years it's spawned zombies based on the player's level. So, like I said, a level 1 player won't face the same amount/quality of enemies as a level 25 player will, even if it's night 7 for both of them.

It kind of did have pre determined wave counts, and still does, but the waves are so large a lot of players don't notice them. The change was that once all the waves are exhausted you still get a minimal spawn of zombies until dawn. Previous to the change you could kill all the zombies in the horde and have a few hours of zero spawns before dawn.

That said, clearing out all the waves was only ever possible in the first couple of weeks, or if you set your maximum enemies higher than the default 8 and can manage effective AOE kills.

It still works that way, but now if you do manage to massacre the hordes really fast, you still get a trickle of zombies until dawn, once the main waves are exhausted.

 

[Vaeliorin]

It kind of did have pre determined wave counts, and still does, but the waves are so large a lot of players don't notice them. The change was that once all the waves are exhausted you still get a minimal spawn of zombies until dawn. Previous to the change you could kill all the zombies in the horde and have a few hours of zero spawns before dawn.

That said, clearing out all the waves was only ever possible in the first couple of weeks, or if you set your maximum enemies higher than the default 8 and can manage effective AOE kills.

It still works that way, but now if you do manage to massacre the hordes really fast, you still get a trickle of zombies until dawn, once the main waves are exhausted.

Actually, they've changed it again since the trickle. There is no trickle, it's just balls to the wall all night.

It's possible the last wave just has like 10k zombies in it, though, so technically possible to finish early?

 

[WarMongerian]

Actually, they've changed it again since the trickle. There is no trickle, it's just balls to the wall all night.

It's possible the last wave just has like 10k zombies in it, though, so technically possible to finish early?

I would say that there seems to be a 'final push' right before dawn, but it may just be my imagination/opinion.

 

[Uncle Al]

Actually, they've changed it again since the trickle. There is no trickle, it's just balls to the wall all night.

It's possible the last wave just has like 10k zombies in it, though, so technically possible to finish early?

Interesting. I'm currently on a 'horde every night' playthrough and I'm definitely still seeing the dropoff in my early hordes. The max alive was dropping from 8 (I've started default and will raise it every week) to maybe 4 for the later part of the horde. I'm still only on day 7 or so, so that might be influencing things.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Interesting. I'm currently on a 'horde every night' playthrough and I'm definitely still seeing the dropoff in my early hordes. The max alive was dropping from 8 (I've started default and will raise it every week) to maybe 4 for the later part of the horde. I'm still only on day 7 or so, so that might be influencing things.

Huh. My last few playthroughs, I've had full zombies every horde night (though only every 7 days), but I've got it set to 32 zombies. Might just be once you hit a certain gamestage?

 

[theFlu]

The max alive was dropping from 8 (I've started default and will raise it every week) to maybe 4 for the later part of the horde.

You don't need to guess, just check the gamestages.xml -file.

In a spoiler for people who don't want to see such details:

Spoiler: Numerical deets

A snippet at GS 16:

        <gamestage stage="16">
            <spawn group="feralHordeStageGS13" num="23" maxAlive="7" duration="1" interval="27"/>
            <spawn group="feralHordeStageGS16" num="23" maxAlive="7" duration="1"/>
            <spawn group="feralHordeStageGS16" num="999" maxAlive="4"/>
        </gamestage>

Which means 46 zeds at 7 concurrent, after which a thousand at 4 at a time. Dunno how long it'd take to just spawn those 999, even if they died instantly...

The 999 wave remains throughout the game after that; at GS 109 the maxalive for it is set to be the same as the earlier waves .. (35, actual max is 30 in any case). So, from there it's not a "trickle", it's exactly as the earlier waves.

At GS 381 the numbers end up at 500 (x2) + 999, and remain like that from there; 2k max for any horde.

 

[Vaeliorin]

You don't need to guess, just check the gamestages.xml -file.

In a spoiler for people who don't want to see such details:

Spoiler: Numerical deets

A snippet at GS 16:

        <gamestage stage="16">
            <spawn group="feralHordeStageGS13" num="23" maxAlive="7" duration="1" interval="27"/>
            <spawn group="feralHordeStageGS16" num="23" maxAlive="7" duration="1"/>
            <spawn group="feralHordeStageGS16" num="999" maxAlive="4"/>
        </gamestage>

Which means 46 zeds at 7 concurrent, after which a thousand at 4 at a time. Dunno how long it'd take to just spawn those 999, even if they died instantly...

The 999 wave remains throughout the game after that; at GS 109 the maxalive for it is set to be the same as the earlier waves .. (35, actual max is 30 in any case). So, from there it's not a "trickle", it's exactly as the earlier waves.

At GS 381 the numbers end up at 500 (x2) + 999, and remain like that from there; 2k max for any horde.

Yeah, this is probably why it seems that way to me. I play 2 hour days, so my gamestage is usually fairly high for my day 7 horde.

 

[MiTHMoN]

It kind of did have pre determined wave counts, and still does,

My understanding is that, like it currently is, waves were determined by the player's level.

So a blood moon on day 7 for one player might have a different amount of zombies than a blood moon on day 7 for another player, based on their leveling performance in those first 7 days and 6 nights.

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 12:38 AM

Basically, the game assumes that the higher level that you are, the more zombie combat you can handle.

And the more zombie combat you actually can handle means the faster you level up and progress. And blood moons directly feed into that loop.

So if you don't enjoy combat, or you don't want to kill lots of zombies, blood moon probably isn't for you.

 

[Uncle Al]

My understanding is that, like it currently is, waves were determined by the player's level.

So a blood moon on day 7 for one player might have a different amount of zombies than a blood moon on day 7 for another player, based on their leveling performance in those first 7 days and 6 nights.

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 12:38 AM

Basically, the game assumes that the higher level that you are, the more zombie combat you can handle.

And the more zombie combat you actually can handle means the faster you level up and progress. And blood moons directly feed into that loop.

So if you don't enjoy combat, or you don't want to kill lots of zombies, blood moon probably isn't for you.

Yes, but it's gamestage not level that determines the horde composition. theFlu gives an example above.

Gamestage is basically level + days alive capped at 2x level. Certainly different players will see different hordes on the same day, if they are different levels.

 

[MiTHMoN]

Yes, but it's gamestage not level that determines the horde composition. theFlu gives an example above.

Gamestage is basically level + days alive capped at 2x level. Certainly different players will see different hordes on the same day, if they are different levels.

But that's not what predetermined means. That's the opposite of predetermined.
The wave count is determined by the player's actions before the blood moon.
Predetermined means the wave count was decided before the player joined.

 

[theFlu]

But that's not what predetermined means. That's the opposite of predetermined.

You two are talking a bit past one another; your original use of pre-determined is correct in context, but the GS-based setup in the xml:s is also pre-determined in its own way.

I think it actually used to be pre-determined in your original sense; at least there was a time where the hordes would wrap around, the D56 horde was a repeat of the D7 horde when I started playing somewhere in 2015 or so. As in, completely trivial and a surprising disappointment ...

 

[MiTHMoN]

You two are talking a bit past one another; your original use of pre-determined is correct in context, but the GS-based setup in the xml:s is also pre-determined in its own way.

I think it actually used to be pre-determined in your original sense; at least there was a time where the hordes would wrap around, the D56 horde was a repeat of the D7 horde when I started playing somewhere in 2015 or so. As in, completely trivial and a surprising disappointment ...

When I started playing, I don't know, ~12 years ago, some of the mechanics of the game were just un-fun.

I remember one of the biggest issues we faced back in the early days, was if we used molotovs, only one player got exp and the others didn't. So we had to try to divide up the molotovs so each of us would get roughly equal exp for blood moon, just so we could stay relatively close in levels. Like some Diablo 1 type nonsense.

And for years, literally years, we would have to log out and log back in to allow blood moons to continue spawning zombies. Because we'd always run out of zombies with this "limited amount of zombies per blood moon" thing that @warmer likes. It sucked for a lot of players.

When blood moons started spawning zombies throughout the whole night, the blood moons got better. When molotovs awarded exp to the whole party, the game got better.

So when someone like @warmer comes along, saying they miss the janky way it used to be, and citing reasons that aren't real, it's like... No. Get a reality check.

The game is designed to react to your actions, somewhat. If you level up, the zombies you face are stronger, more numerous, and the loot is of higher quality.

@warmer is saying he wants the game to not react to player progress, and honestly that sounds lame. We know what that was like, because we had to put up with it in earlier versions, so we know it sucked. We don't have to guess about it, we lived it.

So I'm not really interested in someone mis-using the term "pre-determined". The XML files hard-code breakpoints, based on player levels. Player levels are determined during gameplay. Therefore, from a coding perspective, and from a gameplay perspective, and from a common speech perspective, blood moon counts are not pre-determined, they are determined during the playthrough. You can't know before the game starts what level a given player will be when night 7 rolls around. It's not helpful to encourage misuse of terms.

 

[theFlu]

It's not helpful to encourage misuse of terms.

Hmm, I do prefer the scaling to player system that is in place currently; I don't know if I like the 999 zed wave as mostly a solo player - I can't exhaust any horde, so it doesn't really matter if I kill them or not, they'll keep attacking all night. From farming PoV it's great, but as a survival challenge it's worse. No reward for killing fast, other than the meager loot.

For the bit I quoted, I do agree; misuse of language is annoying. But there's levels to determinism too; the loot RNG of the game is deterministic. If you save-scum your world, and loot the same boxes again, you get the same loot. Marvels of pseudo-randomness. That's one way of being predetermined. It's not free of conditions, but it's set in stone under the same conditions. The GS-scaled horde system is similar. The condition just isn't "game day", it's "game stage". Quite obviously similar for either to be called pre-determined.

 

[MiTHMoN]

The condition just isn't "game day", it's "game stage". Quite obviously similar for either to be called pre-determined.

Again, it's not "pre-determined". The game will check what game stage you are at *when* the event happens, whether that's deciding loot, spawning zombies, or selecting enemies for blood moon.

Pre-determined means it's decided in advance, before you launch the game. But gamestage is calculated while the game is running, and changes based on the player's actions.

You could say "it's hard-coded" and is determined "based on gamestage". But that isn't the same as pre-determined. They're just literally different things.

If we can't establish basic terms, then there's a problem.

 

[theFlu]

Pre-determined means it's decided in advance

What is decided in advance? The exact composition of the horde? Or what spawns on D7 horde? Or what spawns on GS 13 horde? D7 and GS13 are equally determined in advance.
The term we agree on, roughly, but not the target. Or, not even "we", as I was merely pointing out how I think you two are talking past one another. I don't need you to agree with me, I think you should get the point by now

 

[MiTHMoN]

What is decided in advance? The exact composition of the horde? Or what spawns on D7 horde? Or what spawns on GS 13 horde? D7 and GS13 are equally determined in advance.
The term we agree on, roughly, but not the target. Or, not even "we", as I was merely pointing out how I think you two are talking past one another. I don't need you to agree with me, I think you should get the point by now

I think it's you that is talking passed me and not getting the point.

Yes, but it's gamestage not level that determines the horde composition. theFlu gives an example above.

Gamestage is basically level + days alive capped at 2x level. Certainly different players will see different hordes on the same day, if they are different levels.

As we can see from this quote "gamestage not level", then proceeds to write how level is the determining factor.

Y'all are just trying to play semantics troll, and I'm telling you that's not accurate, that's not how the term works, and the player's actions determine their level which determines their gamestage which determines the "severity" of the blood moon. The player's actions determine which breakpoint they fall into when night 7 hits. Plain and simple.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:00 AM

Because one of the major complaints of @warmer was that he didn't like player actions determining blood moon difficulty.

But I'm saying, it's been that way for a long time, even before blood moons cut off the spawns early.

 

[MiTHMoN]

And when the game did cut off blood moons early, the game sucked because of it. It wasn't enjoyable. That's why they changed it.

And it turns out @warmer's problem is actually that he doesn't play blood moons for the kills, he plays them to "endure" them. He's playing the game completely differently than most players are, and differently than the game is intended.

The reason the zombie AI attacks walls instead of just following the catwalk is because the devs have to keep disrupting players' cheese horde bases. Because if the player is at no risk while they just farm exp, the game becomes un-fun. Every blood moon just becomes "stand and shoot for free exp and loot with no chance of ever losing".

Or even "sit in your base while your traps do it for you".

7DTD isn't Orcs Must Die, and it's not Factorio. You're supposed to actively participate in the game. Screamers spawn at your base because you were just sitting in your base harvesting crops or boiling water or letting your resources go up. The game comes along to snap you out of just sitting still.

If you don't want to engage in the combat, turn off blood moons or turn off zombie spawning. Those are options. You can play the game with basically no zombies (some still spawn anyway, I think).

 

[theFlu]

As we can see from this quote "gamestage not level", then proceeds to write how level is the determining factor.

What's the issue with that? Gamestage = (Days_alive + Level) *1.2, with Days_alive being capped to Level. If two players have the same Days_alive on the same horde day, but are on different levels (and in different horde-groups), their gamestages, and thus their hordes will be different. Decided by gamestage, which can be different based on levels alone.

The player's actions determine which breakpoint they fall into when night 7 hits.

Yes, and the breakpoints are pre-determined. That is one way to use the phrase, perfectly fine. That's probably why Uncle used a "kinda" in his statement, to highlight the difference

Anyhoo, I don't care if someone wants to clear all of the horde or none of it; to each his own in this case. It's a solo game or a friendly group, it ain't my business how anyone plays. Nor do I care what anyone thinks of how I play