What is it with some of these POIs???

[theFlu]

As InfiniteWarrior mentioned, having a POI tell a story is a great thing as it can make the POI more interesting and less repetitive. But it is easier to tell a story if you have a path the player will follow.

You do have a point there, if the carnage that formed the path is the story, that's one thing. But it's not entirely that straightforward - if the story of the POI isn't "the making of the path", then lining up story events along the path actually shouldn't be "linear". A story can be told with chronological breaking as well (Pulp fiction, anyone?).

But for me, the game of the maze practically always hides everything else from sight. I'm only looking for the next way to go, and while I will look at the story elements, I'm not trying to put together a story when there's a path to follow. It happens to me in other games as well, I have no idea of the actual story of an MMORPG until I actually stop and think about it.

It's probably highly individual for sure, I'm a mechanical being first and foremost - but I think it will affect everyone to some degree, just by splitting / stealing attention. Much like my complaint about the yellow quest marker with a progress counter to stare at while traveling, I'm blind to the world while I look at the count down. I'm blind at the POI while I'm looking for the path.

That way, if you want to tell Me a story, don't distract me with a rat race at the same time

 

[Laz Man]

Literally anything that isn´t a dungeon style POI with only one way trough it. From POI´s like they used to be before dungeon stlye, just not that rudimentary, up to Castles that are hard to clear simply due to their size.

Is this really so hard to imagine? Are you guys stuck that much on dungeon style that you can´t even think of anything else anymore?

I am not saying they shouldn´t be questable. Maybe no fetch quests in those POI´s, clear is fine.

It's not simple as it may appear. One huge benefit of current questable POI design is good pacing and minimal having to double back on spaces the player has already been in. They also scale up in difficulty and time spent the higher the tier. It's significantly much harder to achieve this consistently with no "main path."

Good level design, respects the players time which is very important in games where there is time tension like the impending bloodmoon event.

Now, what POI are you referring to in the past that you are so fond of? I would be more then happy to take a closer look at any particular POI if there is anything useful to takeaway from it.

Most non questable POIs of the past were huge empty POIs with a monotone experience.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Laz Man I am not looking for pre A17 POI style. Modern POI´s that aren´t dungeon style. Best i can tell you is to take a look at compopack and ZZtongs POI´s. Compopack has a ton of dungeon POIs also though. ZZ only has a few of them as far as i can remember.

I am not looking for a certain style of POI, just generally T1-T5 POIs, including clear and generator quests as fetch can be too easy in some that aren´t dungeon style. I don´t want the game to have dungeon POI´s and one style of non dungeon POIs. Variety and not falling into one extreme is the key.

When i play with compopack and all the Packs from modders that aren´t in compopack, then i delete almost every vanilla POI, because if you saw one, you basically saw them all, besides like 10% that have a more difficult layout with the path like the building that fell over or kind of open POIs like Area 7 which is not dungeon style.

 

[Riamus]

You do have a point there, if the carnage that formed the path is the story, that's one thing. But it's not entirely that straightforward - if the story of the POI isn't "the making of the path", then lining up story events along the path actually shouldn't be "linear". A story can be told with chronological breaking as well (Pulp fiction, anyone?).

But for me, the game of the maze practically always hides everything else from sight. I'm only looking for the next way to go, and while I will look at the story elements, I'm not trying to put together a story when there's a path to follow. It happens to me in other games as well, I have no idea of the actual story of an MMORPG until I actually stop and think about it.

It's probably highly individual for sure, I'm a mechanical being first and foremost - but I think it will affect everyone to some degree, just by splitting / stealing attention. Much like my complaint about the yellow quest marker with a progress counter to stare at while traveling, I'm blind to the world while I look at the count down. I'm blind at the POI while I'm looking for the path.

That way, if you want to tell Me a story, don't distract me with a rat race at the same time

My guess based on what you say here is that even if the story elements were added to any kind of POI layout, you'd still not notice them or ignore them. It seems that a story element for a POI isn't something you'd pay much attention to based on this. There isn't anything wrong with that. I probably ignore most of those that are in this game as well. But they are nice to see when you do notice them. I'm also not suggesting that all POI, or even most POI, need story elements.

I think the biggest problem with "the game of the maze practically always hides everything else from sight" is that we are in buildings. Buildings are usually just a lot of rooms. Walls hide things from sight. And if you don't want to have a player need to go in and out of every room that has only one door and no exit from it as would be the case in a real building, you need things that direct the player in other directions - broken walls, barricades, open windows, etc. That creates a linear path. But it breaks up the back and forth. I think it would be pretty dull if the skyscrapers were just open staircases and you had to walk into each room and then back out into the hall and into the next room and back into the hall and so on for the entire thing because it is "open". And, yes... that's the extreme end of things. You can mix things up, but I actually like how the paths are in the POI while also having the option to go your own way.

Best i can tell you is to take a look at compopack and ZZtongs POI´s. Compopack has a ton of dungeon POIs also though. ZZ only has a few of them as far as i can remember.

I don't use compopack, but I always use ZZTong's modlet. He has great POI. One thing great about them is they feel like vanilla POI, which is what he's said he tries to do with them. Yes, most don't have a linear path, but at the same time, when I go through them, they feel like vanilla POI. They don't really give a sense of being unique just because they don't have a path. I don't even notice the lack because they feel so much like vanilla POI. And when it really just comes down to his versus vanilla, you're getting the ability to go other directions, but you're also going through the same areas multiple times as you backtrack to go in another direction to cover the places you didn't get to when going in the first direction. I don't think it really adds much of anything to the POI to have it open. It's a different experience, sure. But not in any really significant way.

And you're just trading one form of "because if you saw one, you basically saw them all" for another. If you pick two houses from ZZTong and compare them, the similarity between them will be roughly the same as picking two houses from vanilla and comparing those to each other. The linear paths actually give more variety because the paths are going to be different. If you're going into a house and can go upstairs and downstairs and into each room as you want without much of an intended path, then two POI of the same type will end up being very much the same. On the other hand, if you have an intended path and one path takes you through in one kind of way and another path takes you through in another kind of way, then you have variety even if the house is basically the same. Don't forget that real buildings are usually the same general design as others of the same type. A house is a house is a house... You'll usually have a living room connected to a kitchen and/or dining room with a bathroom off the side. Bedrooms are either connected to that living room or else on the next floor. If there are two floors, there's often a bathroom on each floor. Basements are often just an open area with perhaps a room or two and shelving that might break it up. There could be access to an attic. Layouts change some and furniture varies, but it's pretty much the same thing. An office building will usually have a lot of rooms connected to hallways with only one door into them and maybe a larger room with cubicles. There will usually be a reception desk at the entrance. So again, it's the same basic idea over and over again. By using paths, you can hide that and make each one at least somewhat different from the next. You'll still have similarities... it's still an office building or a house or whatever. But it helps to hide those similarities, especially compared to being more open and letting you go where you want without a path.

 

[theFlu]

I think the biggest problem with "the game of the maze practically always hides everything else from sight" is that we are in buildings.

No. Different argument. Walls will of course hide things, but looking for the "clues" of "where do I go next" are a completely different thing. Walls work exactly the same in a single-path POI as they do in a realistic one; but only in one is my attention taken by the "path". In the other my attention is taken by the structure of the POI and figuring out how to move through it; that lends better towards me having brainpower/time to spend on decor. It's no guarantee, but way more likely for me look at stuff and not just cruise through if I don't have the lure stuck on my lip pulling me forward.

An apartment building with 5 clones of floors may be really boring even on the first run, and there a path through some balconies etc may make the place better. But that can also be improved by storytelling, different types of apartments obviously inhabited by different types of people (hunting decors in one, computer labs in another etc). Doesn't need to be the case for ANY OTHER type of POI, be it a superstore of a medical factory, there's zero need to clone rooms anywhere else...

 

[zztong]

Good level design, respects the players time which is very important in games where there is time tension like the impending bloodmoon event.

That's an interesting consideration. I'm not really sure how a path accomplishes that, unless it were to be less likely to skip a zombie volume on a clear quest. It makes some assumptions: (1) the path is detectable and (2) the path can be followed. I suppose either of those could be considered a bug. Interestingly, Parkour sometimes makes it impossible to follow a path either because the player can't make a jump or because they have invested in the Parkour skill and can't control how high they jump.

I'm not sure bloodmoon is tension. That's an easy decision... go do the horde night. You lose nothing for failing the quest. The classic time tension is external, real-world commitments. Of course, everyone is different, so it might be I'm the weirdo here. When it comes to Tier 5, I only use the quest to reset the POI. I don't plan to complete it on the trader's terms.

 

[Khissi]

I will say that I love some of the newer POIs that almost tell stories of their previous owners. This is what I see and enjoy, besides the lovely zombie ganking, and I do love lots of zztong's POIs, because they're made thoughtfully. So are the newer vanilla POIs. I have absolutely no issue with the POI pathing, though I really dislike some of the lazier aspects of the way they're hiding waves of attackers and hordes of mobs in a tiny space. Some players, though, do NOT care about such things and, for them, it's annoying because they want to kill, smash, break walls, squash heads, rage and enjoy doing so. They may like a bit of exploring, but they're not drawn to the story of the POI the way others of us are. And, that's okay!

Everyone is different, plays differently, and I wish, wish, wish people would understand that TFP, for all their believed faults, are doing the best they can to walk a fine line between all those types of game play. They are making a game that even old ladies with crappy reflexes can play for thousands of hours and have tons of fun as well as the twitchy, PVP/PVE lovers that only want to kill everything in sight. Or.. something like that. I can't begin to imagine what it would take to please everyone. It's impossible, but it sure comes close to pleasing about everything I enjoy, and mod makers do the rest. So, let them make a base game that's stable and reliable as they can, and then, get a modder to fix what you don't like.

And, poor console players... may your coffers overflow so you can buy a decent computer.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Riamus It is a difference simply because there is several ways to go trough the POI. Might not be a big deal for you, but for me and others it is a welcome change not having to break down doors and walls all the time just get a change from the same old path. Area 7 is a perfect example of a more open POI, it´s an open POI with some dungeon style to it. And it´s awesome.

@zztong I mean everyone who hangs around since A15, and in my case even way longer, is a bit of a weirdo.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

You do have a point there, if the carnage that formed the path is the story, that's one thing. But it's not entirely that straightforward - if the story of the POI isn't "the making of the path", then lining up story events along the path actually shouldn't be "linear".

No, it shouldn't be. We're talking worldbuilding here, not "telling" a story from beginning to end. Excellent example is the monorail in FO76. How its situated, where it goes, tells you everything you need to know about the game world of Applachia before the war. No dialogue, no terminal entries, no notes. You can imagine mining execs sitting in their mansions on stilts literally looking down on the working class to the West, etc. Visual storytelling at its finest. That is, after all, what BGS actually excels at if not foreground story, characterization and dialogue: creating interesting worlds to explore. It's not an excuse for a linear path through a POI, iow, but just an example of exceptional POI design.

7DTD could use more of that is all I'm saying there.

 

[Laz Man]

That's an interesting consideration. I'm not really sure how a path accomplishes that, unless it were to be less likely to skip a zombie volume on a clear quest. It makes some assumptions: (1) the path is detectable and (2) the path can be followed. I suppose either of those could be considered a bug. Interestingly, Parkour sometimes makes it impossible to follow a path either because the player can't make a jump or because they have invested in the Parkour skill and can't control how high they jump.

I'm not sure bloodmoon is tension. That's an easy decision... go do the horde night. You lose nothing for failing the quest. The classic time tension is external, real-world commitments. Of course, everyone is different, so it might be I'm the weirdo here. When it comes to Tier 5, I only use the quest to reset the POI. I don't plan to complete it on the trader's terms.

The paths designed in questable POIs are usually very nuanced. Some players have recognized that lights often are placed at key transition points within a POI. These "suggested" paths help players navigate through the POI without missing any of the key objectives associated with quests and with minimal double backing on previously explored areas.

This is extremely valuable in the larger POIs where a player might get easily turned around and lost.

For example, Dishong tower. If you follow the designed path, you could be done with a quest there in .5 to 1.5 game days (60 minute days). If you decide to randomly chop though every locked door you come across it can take twice as much time. Frustrating experience for some, especially when the bloodmoon date is getting closer.

On the positive side, many of the newer POIs have less "one-way," "maze-like" areas as the team gets more tools and experience designing POIs with more player choice navigation options.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

The paths designed in questable POIs are usually very nuanced. Some players have recognized that lights often are placed at key transition points within a POI. These "suggested" paths help players navigate through the POI without missing any of the key objectives associated with quests and with minimal double backing on previously explored areas.

This is extremely valuable in the larger POIs where a player might get easily turned around and lost.

For example, Dishong tower. If you follow the designed path, you could be done with a quest there in .5 to 1.5 game days (60 minute days). If you decide to randomly chop though every locked door you come across it can take twice as much time. Frustrating experience for some, especially when the bloodmoon date is getting closer.

On the positive side, many of the newer POIs have less "one-way," "maze-like" areas as the team gets more tools and experience designing POIs with more player choice navigation options.

Only thing that bothers me is that locked doors can't be closed again when a trigger opens them. They're "locked" open. I'd just as soon be able to close that door behind me if that's technically feasible.

 

[Ostentatio]

Even mazes have a good gameplay to them, in my eyes- if you don't know what you're getting into, it's stressful to survive and to navigate and any time constraint on top of that, but that's the whole shtick of wandering through someplace new anyway. If you know what you're getting into, remembering the path is a smaller challenge than the unexpected, but in either case you can just pick a tool and start becoming your own POI pathfinder.

I've only run into nontriggered sleeper volumes twice myself, once in Army Post 7's basement showers and I can't remember the other- if there's a way to improve trigger guarantees, then that reduces the "punishment" that comes from ignoring the indicated path and running into a bugged sleeper volume. Improved POI design on new ones is fantastic, but if there's any way to iron out how the triggers in general work, that's a retro-boost to everything that came before. (Forced spawns when only 1-2 triggers are left regardless of player proximity? Dunno.) Mind you, I've only had those two failures to trigger and I've gotten more wall-break-happy the more I learn POI layouts; I like to break some key walls and do a sprint through the POI to set off as many as I can to get some good yield out of throwables and ammo surplus.

If I had to think of a point of criticism for POI design, it is the concentration of loot in one room. If I know where the loot room is and it's only one or two walls from the outside, then for efficiency and safety, I'll sometimes hit the loot room first, pull the loot, then do the POI by its intended route to ensure that even if I have to leave halfway, I've gotten the most out of it already; definitely not good gameplay and I'm hindering my own experience by doing so, but some days you just feel like that. I don't think randomized loot room locations are a good way to do that for technical reasons, but instead I'd suggest just spreading it out.

As an example - Fates Motel. If I remember right, it has two loot rooms; one in the house, one in the motel section. A good example of spreading out rewards, but a bad example of how easy the loot is to get to if you know where it is. One ladder up the house and one door to the motel- bam, POI's "done" from a loot perspective, easy five minutes if someone's driving by it in the wild. Burying the loot rooms deeper inside the house/underground section, and dividing those two rooms' rewards into a third room- you'd get mid-path rewards and negate the value of lootsnipe/reset-cheeses.

Army Post 7 is another kind of bad example of loot concentration, too. I don't remember if there's any major lootables other than the basement saferoom; if I've got a good pickaxe - which I would if I'm even walking onto the POI - then I just break the concrete wall next to the steel door down the stairs, deal with the control center sleepers, then hit the button for the loot room and deal with the strangely placed dozen guys who died behind a paper wall hiding a ??? room. It at least involves fighting and risk, but it still bypasses the entirety of the rest of the POI and its design.

 

[Vaeliorin]

I will say that I love some of the newer POIs that almost tell stories of their previous owners. This is what I see and enjoy, besides the lovely zombie ganking, and I do love lots of zztong's POIs, because they're made thoughtfully. So are the newer vanilla POIs. I have absolutely no issue with the POI pathing, though I really dislike some of the lazier aspects of the way they're hiding waves of attackers and hordes of mobs in a tiny space. Some players, though, do NOT care about such things and, for them, it's annoying because they want to kill, smash, break walls, squash heads, rage and enjoy doing so. They may like a bit of exploring, but they're not drawn to the story of the POI the way others of us are. And, that's okay!

My objection to the current POIs is mostly that it's entirely unbelievable that every house/building has either been largely destroyed or somehow turned into some sort of anti-zombie fortress. Some percentage of the buildings (probably most of them, but I'm willing to compromise for gameplay reasons, I suppose) should just be relatively normal buildings. It has nothing to do with them being annoying to navigate or anything else.

In fact, Stand Tower (even if I don't think it's very realistic that the building would have fallen over in that way and stayed as structurally sound as it has) is probably my favorite POI, and it's kinda horrible to navigate

I'd think with less intended pathing, they could also randomize up the buildings a lot more without worrying about breaking something about the path. Have loot and zombie spawns be less deterministic. Maybe one time you get a couple weak zombies in one room, but the next time you're in that POI, it's got a couple bikers, a Hawaiian and a Cop, even at the same gamestage. Maybe one time a room has a gun safe and a weapons bag, and the next time, it has a backpack and a desk.

Just...anything to make the whole game less predictable.

 

[Rotor]

My objection to the current POIs is mostly that it's entirely unbelievable that every house/building has either been largely destroyed or somehow turned into some sort of anti-zombie fortress.

Ya, I find it hard to believe I can't get water from a lake an boil it

 

[Suxar]

And you are describing a bug. Maybe report it?

Something tells me that this is a known error.

In programming, there is such a thing as a "floating error", that is, an error that sometimes appears and sometimes does not. And this is one of the most difficult errors to fix, because it is almost impossible to model it.

 

[theFlu]

My objection to the current POIs is mostly that it's entirely unbelievable that every house/building has either been largely destroyed or somehow turned into some sort of anti-zombie fortress.

Well, over time most everyone would do something to fortify their home. But the time seems to have been rather limited as every office worker has turned at the desk, and every stripper has turned on the pole and ... so, yeah...