The missed post from JaWoodle

theFlu said:
While HD disagrees, I accept that as apt. I was thinking myself that a "put your hands behind your back" is not an invitation to make your life easier, it's to make the cops life easier. In that case, complying is recommended, your hands Will be behind your back shortly, and refusing to comply is a charge in itself.

Here, obeying the request would leave no legal reason to contest it later; if he took a vid down himself, there's nothing to take to court. And since the request was later enforced, it was merely a "please save us the trouble of filing the DMCA". No reason to respect that any more than the direct DMCA takedown. In this case the "we asked nicely" can be seen as manipulative.

Asking was fine, forcing it afterwards makes the asking look bad. They were never asking.
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to be clear...the part I disagree with is how the context changes when you use the police as an example. THEY have a role in society...of enforcing the law. You are right that "put your hands behind your back" IS NOT A SUGGESTION. it is not a polite ask.
The back and forth between TFP and Jawoodle was in an area with ambiguity...not dead certainty.
that' s why it is not a fair comparison (imo)
 
theFlu said:
Yeh, it was ambiguous while it was being said. The later action of forcing it cleared the ambiguity.
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Sorry, not trying to unreasonable, but, these narratives tend to solidify quickly without push back. TFP/BHVR took a decided action...it is not settled...it is being contested. That they took an action does not mean that they were in the right, or that the matter is settled.

I have no problem conceding that them taking this action has altered relationships permanently. which may suit their purpose...I don't know...wasn't meant as an accusation. These things get done to "chill" people or to kill stories etc. It's not uncommon.
 
HammerDano said:
TFP/BHVR took a decided action...it is not settled...it is being contested.
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Yeah, absolutely. IMO, it's not worth it for either party to actually take this to court. But that's where they're headed.

But the ambiguity that Was settled was if TFP's angle was either:
- "Please take it down"
or
- "Please take it down, or we will"
It was the latter. No matter how politely phrased.
 
HammerDano said:
not even close to being a fair comparison...plus...cops wear cameras these days, we'd have that footage to subpoena, eventually get to see the whole exchange. lol
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It's certainly not a 1 for 1 but I don't think it's that far off considering there agreement in place from being in the creator program.. I think it's probably a lot closer to, Imagine you're doing a job for somebody, then they ask you not to do it your way, but theirs.. Now, I wouldn't expect legal problems.. but I would expect them to call everyone they know and tell them I don't do good work.

I don't have anything against Jawoodle but I think he's been incredibly short sighted.
 
theFlu said:
Yeah, absolutely. IMO, it's not worth it for either party to actually take this to court. But that's where they're headed.

But the ambiguity that Was settled was if TFP's angle was either:
- "Please take it down"
or
- "Please take it down, or we will"
It was the latter. No matter how politely phrased.
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yup

that's why I thought his comparison really didn't fit.
 
Seeing as how this is the collective "JaWoodle" thread, here's my $0.02

While TFP has every right to request unreleased and unfinished content from being published on social media, it should be done so in good faith. If you watch JaWoodle's video showcasing the events of this circumstance, TFP openly admitted that they messed up. They (somehow) sent him a wrong build. Nobody but TFP knows how this happened but that's irrelevant. The point is that they admitted to it, in writing, that it was their mistake and responsibility. Additionally, JaWoodle was given the green light with this (incorrect) build to specifically make content around what was in it. There was no attachment that said "Hey. Don't publish this, this, or this from this build."

JaWoodle has been making content for 7DTD for quite some time now and he's not some small hole-in-the-wall creator. His videos pull in hundreds of thousands of views and he's made hundreds, if not 1,000+ videos all focused 7DTD. I imagine those statistics alone are a big contributor as to why he was a member of the Creator Program. And he did all of this of his own accord.

When you have someone that promotes your content in a positive manner - which, without a doubt, can be credited for some of your sales of said product - you don't stab him in the back with legal action over a mistake that you made. Furthermore, you don't represent the details in such a manner that paints the creator as the bad actor.

At the end of the day I doubt it'll do anything to your bottom line. People will still play this game and, in time, this matter will most likely be forgotten. However it will be a stain on your record, as the saying goes. People who are genuinely interested in this game will no doubt be aware of this and how you treated a someone who did so much for you. It also puts a stain on your "Creator Program" and may prevent future applicants from ever stepping forward. "Man. If they treated this guy like this....."

Again... just my $0.02 opinion.
 
Kandrathe said:
He’s the latest. How does that old joke go? The list is long and distinguished…
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It´s been more than 24 hours since his video and there is 40K playing right now and like 3 hours ago it was nearly 50K. Just because people watch some influencer doesn´t mean they stop playing when there is a situation like this. Sure the hardcore fanbois most likely, but that is not the majority of viewers.
 
Prisma501 said:
None of the NPC Core Mod bandits are able to take cover and switch from ranged to melee based on proximity.
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I never said the NPC Core bandits could do any of the those things, so I'm not sure why you brought that up. Did JaWoodle claim or demonstrate bandits doing that in his video? I thought he only spawned them and they weren't functional. It's very possible that, again, I'm misremembering.

Prisma501 said:
So no. Nice try man, but no. You're very wrong.
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Nice try? Nice try at what? I had no motive when I made my post other than to find out if I was remembering correctly or not.
 
Alan Lau said:
I never said the NPC Core bandits could do any of the those things, so I'm not sure why you brought that up. Did JaWoodle claim or demonstrate bandits doing that in his video? I thought he only spawned them and they weren't functional. It's very possible that, again, I'm misremembering.



Nice try? Nice try at what? I had no motive when I made my post other than to find out if I was remembering correctly or not.
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NIce try at implying that TFP "stole" some modders code and make them look bad. Its the other way around. Modders take the bandits code and build on it. Thats all. Mister innocent. Don't ask a question you are not sure about and put an aquisation in the same post before having an answer. That shows your intent. Not smart.
 
Mister Forgash said:
It's certainly not a 1 for 1 but I don't think it's that far off considering there agreement in place from being in the creator program.. I think it's probably a lot closer to, Imagine you're doing a job for somebody, then they ask you not to do it your way, but theirs.. Now, I wouldn't expect legal problems.. but I would expect them to call everyone they know and tell them I don't do good work.

I don't have anything against Jawoodle but I think he's been incredibly short sighted.
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If someone "hired" me...because they liked my work, but, I am not actually an employee...I don't get directly paid by them, I'd probably listen to what they had to say...then remind them that they don't pay me...the people who view that work are the ones who actually pay me. I'd try to work with them, but, If they were not being reasonable...then fired me publicly...I'd probably make a video with receipts to explain my side of the story...to the people who actually pay me.

I don't agree, but, I can see why people think he should have just bent over for TFP. Because regardless of who is right or wrong, he now has repercussions to deal with. hence the opinion that he was short sighted (plus...it's a little inside joke for those who know he got his eyes fixed a few years ago)
 
HammerDano said:
to which you inserted

you can say that is not a false comparison...but it sure looks like one.
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He is asking in what circumstance would someone be asking if "no" was never an option. My response is that "no" is always an option just as complying is an option. Each have their own respective repercussions.

In other words you can always ask. Even if there is a 100% chance there is only a singular outcome. The definition of "asking" isn't reliant on multiple outcomes. Plus it's generally just socially normative to do so.

It's semantics.
 
Kyoji said:
In other words you can always ask. Even if there is a 100% chance there is only a singular outcome.
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You can always ask, for a wallet. If you're about to take it regardless of answer, you're not asking - not in the sense that it "should be respected in a friendly relationship". Not in the moral sense; you're just issuing a warning. And without making it clear it IS a warning, you may also be acting disingenuous.

I'm just exploring the morals here; there's the line of thinking that JaWoodle "should have" respected the request just out of common courtesy. But it turns out, it wasn't a courteous request.
 
Sajakain said:
When you have someone that promotes your content in a positive manner
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Are you really serious? You know he instigated the review bomb when 2.0 dropped? Positive manner my ■■■. Godcomplex because big list of viewers. He thought he had the power. Turned out he had not. He made a lot of money making vids about 7dtd. No one speaks of that. Only that TFP profited of his videos. No, he makes lots of money by playing a game he did not create. So the benifits go both ways. A partnership. If one party drops his respect the other will drop theirs too. He did this to himself.
 
theFlu said:
You can always ask, for a wallet. If you're about to take it regardless of answer, you're not asking - not in the sense that it "should be respected in a friendly relationship". Not in the moral sense; you're just issuing a warning. And without making it clear it IS a warning, you may also be acting disingenuous.

I'm just exploring the morals here; there's the line of thinking that JaWoodle "should have" respected the request just out of common courtesy. But it turns out, it wasn't a courteous request.
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Google the definition of "ask". There is no prerequisite for there being multiple outcomes.

Also all forms of discussion are built around manipulation if you are trying to persuade people to your preferred outcome. Josh putting out a video and what he says in it is also about manipulating his viewers. Whenever you want to get your point across to someone who disagrees or is neutral generally it's through some form of mental manipulation. What words you use, the inflection of your voice, your posture, etc. All matters.
 
Kyoji said:
Google the definition of "ask". There is no prerequisite for there being multiple outcomes.
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Le sigh. Then why ask? If it's not a question, it's merely informative. "It shall be removed, either by you, or us." is different from "Could you please remove?" .. in this case the "Could you please remove" was phrased verbatim:
"we are asking that you work with us in good faith by taking action on the following content."
(non-verbatim followed by: edit the YT, delete the shorts)

Does that sound like a "we're not interested in a 'no'"? If you know corpo-speak, then yes, maybe; but it's phrased, deceivingly, as a request, not a demand. Verbatim that's a request one should be able to still discuss. If you're not willing to discuss it, then make the demanding nature clear.

The "good faith" should be mutual, Woodie disagreed with the reasonability of the request. The corpo went with force. That's not "work with us", that's "do our bidding!".
 
theFlu said:
I'm just exploring the morals here; there's the line of thinking that JaWoodle "should have" respected the request just out of common courtesy. But it turns out, it wasn't a courteous request.
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Also I think it's important to understand the difference between asking someone to edit or remove something and simply filing a DMCA.

The former at least gives the individual a sense of self control and is designed to de-escalate. It gives the individual a path to step back while the other doesn't care and only focuses on the outcome. At least the former is an appeal to morals.

Regardless there is a difference.
 
Kyoji said:
The former at least gives the individual a sense of self control and is designed to de-escalate.
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But in this case, the given sense was a lie. And it would've put the person being lied to in a worse position wrt the legal status of that content.
(slight exaggeration, perhaps; to make a point. Inflamed emotions might fully agree, thou)
 
Prisma501 said:
NIce try at implying that TFP "stole" some modders code and make them look bad. Its the other way around. Modders take the bandits code and build on it. Thats all. Mister innocent. Don't ask a question you are not sure about and put an aquisation in the same post before having an answer. That shows your intent. Not smart.
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I still don't understand why you writing "None of the NPC Core Mod bandits are able to take cover and switch from ranged to melee based on proximity" proves that I was wrong. What does that factoid have to do with anything I wrote?

I never said or implied that they were stealing NPC Core code. No decent sized video game company would ever try to get away with a stunt like that. Yes I did make an insinuation that TFP might be planning on using (and therefore purchasing) NPC Core when they finally do add that to the game. That insinuation was based on what I remembered seeing in Jawoodle's video, which I very clearly said and still say that I could be misremembering. So far, you are the only person that has said, basically, "No, the bandits shown in Jawoodle's video were not based on the NPC Core Mod", but you haven't provided any proof of that. I would love for someone to show, unequivocally, that I'm right or wrong.

As far as my intent, you don't know me. What you do know about me could fit in a martini glass and still have room left for the olive.
 
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