V3.0.0 b259 EXP Update

[Kazgrel]

It costs ZERO food and water. It just stops working now if your food and/or water is flashing red.

Ah, so all the way to red for it to stop working. That's a slap on the wrist, heh.

 

[meganoth]

Not the person you were asking, but my best argument against the bear in a Tier 0 POI is that the tier of a POI is a general expression of its difficulty, so putting something like that inside of a POI that the rest of the game tells you to expect to be "so easy we can't even put a quest in it" is going to feel unfair.

I'm not saying that unfairness or surprise aren't on the table, as they definitely should be, but because of the way the game presents POI difficulty, that bear is unfair in a misleading way. It's not an unfair surprise in the way that a floor caving in and dropping you into a room where you have to fight for your life is a little unfair, but beatable, and you feel victorious if you make it. It's an unfair surprise that, by the time you find it, is simply not survivable if you're too low-level or under-geared.

IMO the bear should stay, but the POI should either be reworked into Tier 2 questable at minimum OR remnants should be able to be higher than tier 0 but unquestable. So Kodiak could be a Tier 2 (Remnant) POI to indicate that there is some element of difficulty but that it is not a questable POI, may or may not have good loot/harvestables, and does not have linear progression or an end loot container. Maybe indicate that a POI is a Remnant by replacing the usual skulls with broken ones. This opens up more "Remnant with a twist" options later down the road while allowing Remnants to feel fair.

If this feels too much like holding the player's hand, well, it's just a clarification of the already-existing skull rating system, on by default, that indicates to a player that the POI they are stepping into might be more difficult than they expect. Anyone who doesn't like that can turn it off in the sandbox settings.

Similarly, things like the Dire Wolf in the Animal Hoarder POI should continue to be a possible spawn, but if they aren't already, they should be gated behind a minimum gamestage. Honestly, if it's something that a player of the appropriate level for taking quests of that tier couldn't reasonably be expected to overcome without cheesing it, it shouldn't be in the POI, but I don't hate the idea of "upping the ante" in lower-level POIs for players whose gamestage is clearly well-above the expected level for that POI.

Do remnants show a level? If yes you have a compelling argument, but in that case we should ask, why the game would show a level at all for a remnant?

 

[Kazgrel]

Unrelated to my reply concerning Siphoning Strikes, it is kinda sad to see a good example of environmental storytelling with the Kodiak Construction POI changed like that. If anything, maybe have that POI favor showing up in later biomes so it isn't a noob trap or whatever.

 

[theFlu]

so it isn't a noob trap or whatever.

I kinda think the noob trap is the best part. Your average player is going to die to the first bear he agroes anyway. Getting that over with in a dark cave at a slightly weird location isn't any worse than finding your first wasteland.

 

[Kender]

Do remnants show a level? If yes you have a compelling argument, but in that case we should ask, why the game would show a level at all for a remnant?

I suppose that's up for debate; in my opinion when the POI labels typically include the skulls as an indicator of difficulty, a POI with no skulls reads as "difficulty 0". I don't know that that's a universal experience especially for players who are newer to the game.

Edit: Though for that matter, why should the game show a level at all for any POI? That entirely exists, in my opinion, as an indicator of difficulty that the character you are playing as would not have. That's fine, but I think it should be clear across the board.

 

[zztong]

Do remnants show a level? If yes you have a compelling argument, but in that case we should ask, why the game would show a level at all for a remnant?

It shows 0 red skulls, and only the biome skulls. I'm not sure Tier 0 got its name for intentionally being easier than Tier 1, but with the Danger Meter it sure seems that way. I believe originally Tier 0 was just the value we gave a POI that has no quests.

 

[Makaroni95]

Bring back that bear
#beargate

 

[Adam the Waster]

Why not upscale those POIs to tier 2 and leave the tough enemies inside? If TFP feels they are too much of a gotcha to newbies being in Tier 1 POIs, just reclassify the POIs.

let them learn and suffer like we have

 

[Riamus]

Because in that situation, instead of posting and being upset here, they will mass post,
to get views, then a meme, making fun of TFP similar to what has happened in the past.
Which will then ■■■■ one or more people off behind the curtain, then merry go round
and round again.

I wonder if this has ever really been an issue? Beyond people just posting it as something funny that happened to them, has it really had any noticeable negative stuff? It's been in the game with the bear for a long time. If it wasn't a problem before, why is it now? Changing it to fix a problem if that problem wasn't even there doesn't make much sense.

Not the person you were asking, but my best argument against the bear in a Tier 0 POI is that the tier of a POI is a general expression of its difficulty, so putting something like that inside of a POI that the rest of the game tells you to expect to be "so easy we can't even put a quest in it" is going to feel unfair.

Tier 0 isn't specifically an easy POI. It's just a POI without a quest attached to it. Many of them have no spawns at all, some have the equivalent of a tier 1, and some have quite a few spawns. I haven't looked that closely at the tier 0s to say around what tier they would go up to if they were tiered, but I'd guess probably tier 3. Maybe they should change the danger meter to show ?'s or something instead of skulls so you know it's an unknown danger. But I don't think there is any problem with tier 0s being a mystery.

Hmm; haven't killed that teddy for a long while, but I seem to think that it wasn't even an aggressive spawn. You'd see it before it agroes and might even need to actively poke it to get mauled. Whether it's like that or not, would that be fair enough for you, a simple "just don't poke the bear"?

It's been a while since I've been in there, but I'm pretty sure it attacks when you're close enough. However, I'm also pretty sure you can see it before it attacks, assuming you're not running headlong into the cave without looking.

Either way, it shouldn't be removed.

 

[Riamus]

@faatal Just for reference, this is a road in 3.0 RWG. It takes you to the Dug In Denizens POI. I assume that road isn't part of the POI. I think this is the most extreme example of a messed up road so far. Most are just 1-3 meter drops. I ran off this without realizing it dropped like that. The next image is what I saw at the top. This seems to have been a POI placed inside a crevice/crack and then the road couldn't figure out how to gradually descend even though there were other places where that would have been possible.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

I wonder if this has ever really been an issue? Beyond people just posting it as something funny that happened to them, has it really had any noticeable negative stuff? It's been in the game with the bear for a long time. If it wasn't a problem before, why is it now? Changing it to fix a problem if that problem wasn't even there doesn't make much sense.

Do I see it as a problem, Nope. Like you said it was there as a part of the game from the beginning.
The suggestion I made is regard to, just following the option mechanics recently added. Whether
changed or not, I mod for myself personally. So Que sera sera.

The other part of my comment is in regard to, responses and reactions that have happened before.
My underlying thought is change one thing to change it back because it doesn't fit into someone
else's scenario, uses more time and resource, than simply leveraging the options, and just let them
play the way they want without inflicting it on someone else. Maybe it will happen again maybe it
won't.

Without removing the stopgap on the vulture what is their reaction regularly? Streamers make videos
now, and did before, of invisible force fields, floating fortresses etc. What was the developmental
reaction? Can you use a snowball for water in game now? I am just hoping it doesn't turn into a repeat
performance.

 

[LittleNightma]

I know I am late to the conversation, but I too think removing these animals from the POIs would be unwise. Sure, the first time might scare the hell out of someone but isn’t that point of the game? Besides, the next time they get the POI they’ll know the animal is there and will be prepared for it.

Re-tiering makes sense, but a full on removal would be very sad to see. Let the game mess with people a little

 

[meganoth]

It shows 0 red skulls, and only the biome skulls. I'm not sure Tier 0 got its name for intentionally being easier than Tier 1, but with the Danger Meter it sure seems that way. I believe originally Tier 0 was just the value we gave a POI that has no quests.

This is at least ambiguous. So I can accept that something had to be done about it. But I would have prefered something else:

Showing no skulls at all, or a question mark as suggested above, would make it obvious that remnants have no assigned difficulty at all. And additionally removing that POI from the forest would really remove all sensible objections in my opinion.

 

[Sapient6]

IMO the bear should stay, but the POI should either be reworked into Tier 2 questable at minimum OR remnants should be able to be higher than tier 0 but unquestable.

I think it should go in an entirely different direction:

Remnants shouldn't pop anything up on the screen at all. It should be like there's nothing there, nothing to indicate any particular amount of difficulty at all.

 

[zztong]

I think it should go in an entirely different direction: Remnants shouldn't pop anything up on the screen at all. It should be like there's nothing there, nothing to indicate any particular amount of difficulty at all.

There is a "hideui" tag available for POIs that I believe accomplishes this if it were to be set for each Tier 0. However, I'd argue it is perhaps better as a game option related to the Danger Meter.

 

[Syphon583]

I added a ticket to our system for level design to consider removing the dire wolf from the Animal Hoarder house.

I would rather see a sandbox option added to the game for players to toggle on if they want the game to prevent boss spawns in low-level POIs. That is a better solution than dumbing down the game and making it LESS exciting. This is supposed to be a horror survival game. Changes like this are ruining the horror aspect (what very little there is left of it, anyway.)

 

[grz__]

Also, bears and wild wolves in the pine forest

 

[faatal]

@faatal Just for reference, this is a road in 3.0 RWG. It takes you to the Dug In Denizens POI. I assume that road isn't part of the POI. I think this is the most extreme example of a messed up road so far. Most are just 1-3 meter drops. I ran off this without realizing it dropped like that. The next image is what I saw at the top. This seems to have been a POI placed inside a crevice/crack and then the road couldn't figure out how to gradually descend even though there were other places where that would have been possible.
View attachment 39738

The POI height would be the issue, not the road, as POIs should be near their surrounding ground level.