Story Mode Controversy --REDUX

khzmusik said:
The "Casino Indian" trope typically presents Native American casino "owners" (or perhaps an "Indian Chief" character) as greedy and taking things from White people. In dramas, the "chief" or "owner" works with organized crime, or sometimes runs organized crime.
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Also, I hate to tell you.... but anyone that runs a casino, regardless of their ethnicity, is doing it out of greed. They're actively trying to take money out of the hands of the gamblers.... as they should be, if they want the casino to stay in business.
 
Kalen said:
Well... I haven't seen most of whats on those lists.... and the things I have seen don't fit the trope at all.
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But you see how the Duke does fit the trope, right?

Kalen said:
Also, I hate to tell you.... but anyone that runs a casino, regardless of their ethnicity, is doing it out of greed. They're actively trying to take money out of the hands of the gamblers.... as they should be, if they want the casino to stay in business.
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Making money is not the same thing as being greedy. Unless it's considered greedy for Native Americans to want things like functioning schools and hospitals, they're not operating casinos because they're greedy.
 
khzmusik said:
But you see how the Duke does fit the trope, right?
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I can see how someone would think that.... I can also see reasons why he doesnt.

khzmusik said:
they're not operating casinos because they're greedy.
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Thats an opinion. You don't know the motives of every single person or organization that runs a casino any more than I do. However, IMO, its a moot point because we're talking about a fictional character in a fictional world. It is not completely outside the bounds of reason to think that this particular native american wasn't a great a guy pre-apocalypse and became a worse one post.
 
Kalen said:
I can see how someone would think that.... I can also see reasons why he doesnt.
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Can you name a single character trait of the Duke which does not fit the "Casino Indian" trope?

Kalen said:
Thats an opinion. You don't know the motives of every single person or organization that runs a casino any more than I do.
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We do know that the money from tribal casinos must, by Federal law, be spent on the welfare of the tribe overall, and they have to submit revenue allocation plans to the BIA to prove it.

I'm not saying Native Americans can't be greedy; but the fundamental reason tribal governments operate casinos is because it helps bring the tribe out of poverty, not because it enriches the government officials personally.

Kalen said:
However, IMO, its a moot point because we're talking about a fictional character in a fictional world.
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You're not the first to think this is relevant, and I still don't understand why anyone would think so.

Obviously the Duke is a fictional character. So are the "Casino Indian" characters in other media. Fictional characters are often how racial stereotypes are spread or normalized.

If a character is based on a real-life racial stereotype, the fact that it's a fictional character doesn't absolve it of being a racial stereotype. If it did, it would mean books like the Turner Diaries couldn't be racist, and I don't think anyone here believes that.
 
khzmusik said:
We do know that the money from tribal casinos must, by Federal law, be spent on the welfare of the tribe overall, and they have to submit revenue allocation plans to the BIA to prove it.
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You're very naive... any government organization handled by ANY group can be corrupt or corrupted, it's in the human nature.
The fact that you think Native Americans must be above this kind of "human trope" makes you some kind of special bigot. :rolleyes:

There are many government organizations that looked clean and trustworthy on the surface, but have been proven to be corrupt and abused by criminals. This has happened time and again in the history of many countries and still happens. As someone else already said, you seem the type who has no real life experience of this kind of things and spreads a rehearsed propaganda based on papers and statistics.

Just recently it has been revealed that the crime rates reported in Washington D.C. had been doctored to look "good" by the same people who were entrusted to report them faithfully (the institutions). That's why people didn't feel like what the media was saying about their city was "right".

At this point your entire discussion is based on an ideal which is, this one truly, just your own trope on how you imagine the Native Americans. While stereotypes are just caricatures of something taken from reality, your own trope is not even that, because it's just a non-existent ideal image that you apply to Native Americans in the hope of countering what you think is a negative stereotype. But the so called "negative trope" is just something that tragedy and comedy have used for ages: it's life with the dull bits cut out. Nothing wrong using that in games, movies and books.
 
khzmusik said:
Can you name a single character trait of the Duke which does not fit the "Casino Indian" trope?
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Honestly, this whole discussion is getting tiring.... but since you asked. My understanding is that a key component of the trope is that the "Casino Indian" is using (misusing) the casino to facilitate his greed and/or corruption. So far, nothing in the description indicates that the Duke is using his casino as anything other than a base of operations. He could just as easily be based out of a post office and this whole issue dies on the vine.
 
Kalen said:
So far, nothing in the description indicates that the Duke is using his casino as anything other than a base of operations.
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Before the apocalypse the Duke already "owned" the casino (according to both Jen and Rekt), and he was described as "corrupt," "ambitious," and "rigging the game his entire life." Nothing in the game files suggests it is merely a base of operations.

The lore is in the game's Localization.txt file, but I also posted it here:
khzmusik

Post in thread 'Story Mode Controversy --REDUX'

For those of you who wanted to know what is in the game files, I have collected a list of everything said about Navezgane, the Duke, and Noah (and their men).

As far as I know, this is the entire story as it is communicated to the player, at least so far.

All of this is in the game's Localization.txt, and I have confirmed that all the trader dialog is voice acted. (The sound files are referenced in the XML, but that doesn't necessarily mean they exist, so I ripped the game files to make sure.) I may have been wrong about the voice acting being introduced in 2.0 though, they may...

You're right that this is getting tiring though, so if you don't reply then I won't blame you.
 
Double G said:
How's the search going? Did you find a group of Native Americans to evaluate the situation?
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I did. But before I could finish the explanation, they threatened to stake me to the ground naked next to an ant hill and pour honey on me if I didn't stop wasting their time... ;)

Joking aside, I love Native American culture, history, and lore. Just because there is a mythology about corrupt Indian casino owners that is used in fictional stories, it doesn't change my perception of them. I believe that any casino managerial setup can be corruptible and that any system contains loopholes that can be exploited. Therefore the idea of a corrupt indian casino owner is plausible in my mind. It doesn't mean all Native Americans are corrupt. Anyone who does believe that probably did before they consumed a fictional story about a corrupt casino owner and probably couldn't be convinced otherwise even if all such stories were burned.

Personally, I think government-supported gambling as a means to raise funds is a cancer on our society. Using addictive and compulsive behavior of certain individuals to enrich a community even if it is for schools, hospitals, roads, etc is an immoral trade off, imo. Gambling destroys families, lives, and engenders misery but the compulsion to do it is what those who open and operate casinos are banking on to make their profits. They also understand that there WILL be a level of illegal and immoral activity associated with the gambling that they are prepared to turn a blind eye to in order to start their business.
 
Roland said:
I love Native American culture, history, and lore.
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I look forward to seeing any of that in the game, since it's not in the game files now.

Roland said:
I think government-supported gambling as a means to raise funds is a cancer on our society. Using addictive and compulsive behavior of certain individuals to enrich a community even if it is for schools, hospitals, roads, etc is an immoral trade off, imo. Gambling destroys families, lives, and engenders misery but the compulsion to do it is what those who open and operate casinos are banking on to make their profits.
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I think you are confusing gambling in general, with gambling addiction. Casinos can make money off of gambling without making money off of the addiction.

But, it's a very thick grey line between the two to be sure.

For what it's worth, Native American tribes also consider this. It's one reason why roughly half the tribes in America do not own casinos. (Native Americans also gamble at those casinos, after all.)

But those which do, are deciding that the social detriments are outweighed by the social benefits. Lack of employment, medicine, education, or social support services also destroy families, lives, and engenders misery - and that misery is systematic and generational.

If you have a better way for Native Americans to avoid that misery, I'm sure everyone involved would love to hear it. But so far nothing else has worked.

Also, not that it matters, but I do not approve of people exploiting gambling addiction either. It's one of the reasons I don't want thinks like paid loot boxes anywhere near video games.

EDIT: Also it doesn't much matter to the game, nor the trope, because the negative effects of gambling addiction don't enter into it. The Duke is not "bad" because he caused gambling addiction; that isn't even mentioned. He's "bad" because he's corrupt, greedy, violent, and runs a protection racket.

Roland said:
They also understand that there WILL be a level of illegal and immoral activity associated with the gambling that they are prepared to turn a blind eye to in order to start their business.
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Do you have any evidence that the tribes who start casinos turn a blind eye to illegal activity? Or is that just what you think because you don't like gambling?
 
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khzmusik said:
Do you have any evidence that the tribes who start casinos turn a blind eye to illegal activity? Or is that just what you think because you don't like gambling?
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Do you have any evidence of the opposite? No, you don't. Because it's impossible to know, since not all crime is discovered (or even monitored) and goes into trials or the statistics. You're again imagining a perfect world which exists only in your head, and you justify it with missing information used as evidence of crime not happening.
 
Jost Amman said:
Do you have any evidence of the opposite? No, you don't. Because it's impossible to know, since not all crime is discovered (or even monitored) and goes into trials or the statistics. You're again imagining a perfect world which exists only in your head, and you justify it with missing information used as evidence of crime not happening.
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And you are imagining crimes because they exist elsewhere. I don't think khz wants to show that indian casinos are 100% free of crime or that indians are generally better people, he wants to show that there is no grounds for supposing that indian casions have the same history of being involved in organized crime as the privately owned casion in the rest of the US. In other words, the view that most indian casinos were also involved with organized crime could be a false preconception because their history and regulations were different

And I can see 3 factual reasons why the history of indian casions differs from that of the others:
1) Since casinos were usually led by groups of people instead of single persons it was much more difficult to start or hide any criminal activities.
2) There was also governmental oversight. Sure, it could be corrupt and we don't know it yet, but it operated for dozens of years now and there are not even rumours of it being corrupt. Most gov. organizations operate more or less for the purpose they were founded, even when there are always some employees who try to capitalize on their position in power.
3) Bugsy Sigel started the trend by founding a casino in Las Vegas somewhere in the 1940's, the mob operated those casinos in the 50's and 60's but they were thrown out in the 60's. The first indian casino was founded in 1981 and by that time everyone knew of the danger of the mob getting hold of one for money laundering. I.e. it is probable that people in power put special care in trying to avoid a repeat of history.

One alone would probably not have worked, but all reasons together could mean that there was a strong probability of any illegal activity being found out very early and squashed before it increased into being "organized crime"

And the reason to assume that that is the case is again probability. There are 532 indian casinos in the US. And we have not a single case of a casino even rumoured to be in the hand of organized crime for so many years, unlike the privately owned casinos where it was known for years that they were owned by the mob. And those casinos were the reason for the widely known preconception of mob casinos

There is no perfect world here. Just a false preconception where khz assumes it is racial. I don't think so because the Las Vegas casinos were the most famous. People (among them some writers of fiction) are often simply assuming that all casinos were at some time operated by organized crime while the other fact is that MOST casinos in the US are operated by indians.
If say only scotsmans were allowed to be bankers by law then a scotish banker would not be a false preconception. And if most bankers were corrupt (because there was insufficient oversight over the banking bussiness) then corrupt scotish bankerss would not necessarily be a racial preconception but still a preconception about a specific job. The only real danger here is that after years of having this preconception people WILL associate it with the race as well. It happened the same way once with jewish money lenders, in the middle ages there were laws against jews to operate normal bussiness, one of the few things they were allowed to do was lending money.
 
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meganoth said:
And you are imagining crimes because they exist elsewhere.
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I'm not. I'm just saying that Native Americans aren't above crime, so assuming that they don't commit crimes is biased and apologetic.
The Duke can be a criminal in a fictional world because it's believable this could happen. Live with it.
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meganoth said:
And you are imagining crimes because they exist elsewhere. I don't think khz wants to show that indian casinos are 100% free of crime or that indians are generally better people, he wants to show that there is no grounds for supposing that indian casions have the same history of being involved in organized crime as the privately owned casion in the rest of the US. In other words, the view that most indian casinos were also involved with organized crime could be a false preconception because their history and regulations were different

And I can see 3 factual reasons why the history of indian casions differs from that of the others:
1) Since casinos were usually led by groups of people instead of single persons it was much more difficult to start or hide any criminal activities.
2) There was also governmental oversight. Sure, it could be corrupt and we don't know it yet, but it operated for dozens of years now and there are not even rumours of it being corrupt. Most gov. organizations operate more or less for the purpose they were founded, even when there are always some employees who try to capitalize on their position in power.
3) Bugsy Sigel started the trend by founding a casino in Las Vegas somewhere in the 1940's, the mob operated those casinos in the 50's and 60's but they were thrown out in the 60's. The first indian casino was founded in 1981 and by that time everyone knew of the danger of the mob getting hold of one for money laundering. I.e. it is probable that people in power put special care in trying to avoid a repeat of history.

One alone would probably not have worked, but all reasons together could mean that there was a strong probability of any illegal activity being found out very early and squashed before it increased into being "organized crime"

And the reason to assume that that is the case is again probability. There are 532 indian casinos in the US. And we have not a single case of a casino even rumoured to be in the hand of organized crime for so many years, unlike the privately owned casinos where it was known for years that they were owned by the mob. And those casinos were the reason for the widely known preconception of mob casinos

There is no perfect world here. Just a false preconception where khz assumes it is racial. I don't think so because the Las Vegas casinos were the most famous. People (among them some writers of fiction) are often simply assuming that all casinos were at some time operated by organized crime while the other fact is that MOST casinos in the US are operated by indians.
If say only scotsmans were allowed to be bankers by law then a scotish banker would not be a false preconception. And if most bankers were corrupt (because there was insufficient oversight over the banking bussiness) then corrupt scotish bankerss would not necessarily be a racial preconception but still a preconception about a specific job. The only real danger here is that after years of having this preconception people WILL associate it with the race as well. It happened the same way once with jewish money lenders, in the middle ages there were laws against jews to operate normal bussiness, one of the few things they were allowed to do was lending money.
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TL-DR
 
meganoth said:
2) There was also governmental oversight. Sure, it could be corrupt and we don't know it yet, but it operated for dozens of years now and there are not even rumours of it being corrupt.
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"When gambling isn’t properly regulated it attracts money laundering, loan sharking, drugs, and organized crime. Investigators with the federal Indian Gaming Commission are able to make only occasional visits to the more than 241 Indian gaming operations across the country. "

Source: https://www.aei.org/articles/the-festering-problem-of-indian-sovereignty/
 
Roland said:
I did. But before I could finish the explanation, they threatened to stake me to the ground naked next to an ant hill and pour honey on me if I didn't stop wasting their time... ;)

Joking aside, I love Native American culture, history, and lore. Just because there is a mythology about corrupt Indian casino owners that is used in fictional stories, it doesn't change my perception of them. I believe that any casino managerial setup can be corruptible and that any system contains loopholes that can be exploited. Therefore the idea of a corrupt indian casino owner is plausible in my mind. It doesn't mean all Native Americans are corrupt. Anyone who does believe that probably did before they consumed a fictional story about a corrupt casino owner and probably couldn't be convinced otherwise even if all such stories were burned.

Personally, I think government-supported gambling as a means to raise funds is a cancer on our society. Using addictive and compulsive behavior of certain individuals to enrich a community even if it is for schools, hospitals, roads, etc is an immoral trade off, imo. Gambling destroys families, lives, and engenders misery but the compulsion to do it is what those who open and operate casinos are banking on to make their profits. They also understand that there WILL be a level of illegal and immoral activity associated with the gambling that they are prepared to turn a blind eye to in order to start their business.
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To me this whole argument is just play. If it's not grand standing then it's masturbation. If he really wanted to move the needle, or really cared, then he would attempt to put legit pressure on TFP by either bringing this up to Native Americans or games journalists instead of playfighting on a forum.

This is toothless and ultimately pointless.

What's the worst that could happen? kHz does bring it up and TFP does get backlash from said groups and they change it BEFORE releasing it to the public? Or his fears are correct, he does nothing but playfight here on the forums, the story comes out, people get upset and TFP and the game sustain some legit damage?
 
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I don’t think he’s just grandstanding. I think he’s voicing his sincere opinion and he is taking action in the form of modding the game to change the narrative which anyone who feels strongly about the stereotyping can download.

Not everyone who has a strong opinion must behave like an activist in order to prove their conviction. My prediction is that there won’t be any measurable backlash. Most people will take the stereotype in stride and have fun playing the game. A few people will be bothered by it and thanks to Khz, they’ll have an optional set of lore to help them enjoy the game.

I don’t get why you seem to be upset that the conversation is happening. Don’t read the thread if you hate discussions like this. Share your opinion and disagree if you’d like or agree if you want. We’re all waiting for 3.0 so, yeah, its all just talk because we’re once again in that zone where if you‘ve finished a run you don’t want to start another until after 3.0 drops.
 
Roland said:
I don’t think he’s just grandstanding. I think he’s voicing his sincere opinion and he is taking action in the form of modding the game to change the narrative which anyone who feels strongly about the stereotyping can download.

Not everyone who has a strong opinion must behave like an activist in order to prove their conviction. My prediction is that there won’t be any measurable backlash. Most people will take the stereotype in stride and have fun playing the game. A few people will be bothered by it and thanks to Khz, they’ll have an optional set of lore to help them enjoy the game.
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That may be true, but it sidesteps the question of whether kHz’s actions match the seriousness of his warning. If he believes TFP faces real reputational damage from a racist depiction, then forum debate and an optional mod are weak solutions compared with getting actual affected voices or public scrutiny involved before release.
Roland said:
I don’t get why you seem to be upset that the conversation is happening. Don’t read the thread if you hate discussions like this. Share your opinion and disagree if you’d like or agree if you want.
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And I don't get why you're being dismissive of my opinion. Did I say, "shut the thread down"? Did I say for him to stop talking about this?
Roland said:
...so, yeah, its all just talk...
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If I was kHz, I'd be insulted by that.
So you think he's sincere but you don't think he's serious.....which is pretty much what I was saying.
 
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