A New Chapter for The Fun Pimps and 7 Days to Die

[meganoth]

the team does good work....I have no problem saying that. The problem(s) (imo) have been managerial in nature. we'll have to see if that has been solved.

"3.0" Sandbox may not be the best example of their work...some ■■■■■■ will point out that it strips out the stuff that TFP changed with 1.0 and 2.0. lol
which even I will say is dickish. If the sliders work the way that has been speculated...these guys will have done a lot to make sure that these things all features and choices, work with and without each other. I still think it's great that they decided to do it...just not before actually getting Bandits and Story in the game. oh well.

I agree it is a controversial and risky move. On the other hand I think it is by far the most important update for console players after 1.0 up to release, far more important than bandits. IMHO TFP has kept the number of options small (a correct move while developing the game) with the rationale that people who want to play differently or who liked a removed feature too well could just install a mod. The game has been mod-friendly in a way that you'll find almost nowhere else. You could say it was a basic design principle, "play how you want, with mods".

That principle doesn't work with console though. So this update is a major design shift (even with a few detrimental effects for modding by the way) and gives to console players some of the "options" that have increased the PC versions replayability massively.

 

[Jost Amman]

please, go back and have a good look at the video you posted and explain to me why you posted it. i dont understand what it is about, what it means or why you would present that as a response.
to me it looks, well, stupid

If you really want to know it was a joke about you not needing any other job because your current one is already great.
That comedic video shows a very skilled drummer "working" as a toon character and doing incredible things with the drums while in a costume.
So that was a (evidently comedic) parallel between you and that guy in the video. This comparison is both sarcastic and flattering, because even if that guy is an exceptional drummer, his job must not be fun or rewarding at all.

That sounded kind of a funny joke in my mind, but maybe it's only a funny joke for me...

 

[HammerDano]

I agree it is a controversial and risky move. On the other hand I think it is by far the most important update for console players after 1.0 up to release, far more important than bandits. IMHO TFP has kept the number of options small (a correct move while developing the game) with the rationale that people who want to play differently or who liked a removed feature too well could just install a mod. The game has been mod-friendly in a way that you'll find almost nowhere else. You could say it was a basic design principle, "play how you want, with mods".

That principle doesn't work with console though. So this update is a major design shift (even with a few detrimental effects for modding by the way) and gives to console players some of the "options" that have increased the PC versions replayability massively.

Sorry, I honestly, I can't say that...in theory you should be right about The Sandbox, in practice we'll have to see how it performs. (fingers crossed)

We are in disagreement that this is bigger than having Bandits and Story in game (since they have said that they are working on both in tandem).
I also disagree that this is the big shift in development. IMO the design shift started in 2019...when Rick and Joel decided the best course of action was to re-release the game to console. That's when they started to simplify the PC game they WERE building, to make it fit on console, instead of continuing what they had for the PC gamers, and porting over what they could for console, AFTER having met the kick starter goals. Getting Bandits (and Story) done first would have meant that TFP had finished a game... Now they have sold out having completed nothing. I assume BI is only keeping the TFP name alive so they don't have to republish the game, but, the company is effectively dead, they all work for BI now.

While I appreciate you acknowledging that mods play a large role in the replayability...many on the PC side want to argue it is only a small margin who even play modded. over and over they will throw out 80% play without mods...but...with nothing to back that up.

 

[Nukem_ded]

If you really want to know it was a joke about you not needing any other job because your current one is already great.
That comedic video shows a very skilled drummer "working" as a toon character and doing incredible things with the drums while in a costume.
So that was a (evidently comedic) parallel between you and that guy in the video. This comparison is both sarcastic and flattering, because even if that guy is an exceptional drummer, his job must not be fun or rewarding at all.

That sounded kind of a funny joke in my mind, but maybe it's only a funny joke for me...

okay that makes sense thanks
it reminded me of that scene in serenity when river flipped out in the bar because of the tv animations and murdered everyone
peace

 

[meganoth]

Sorry, I honestly, I can't say that...in theory you should be right about The Sandbox, in practice we'll have to see how it performs. (fingers crossed)

We are in disagreement that this is bigger than having Bandits and Story in game (since they have said that they are working on both in tandem).

I only know they said they have been working on updates like 2.x and bandits concurrently. Quite possible that I missed that bit about bandits and story, but I would guess that bandits and story will not be released in the same update.

By the way, years ago Roland warned people here in the forum to expect too much from bandits and story. If you do you will surely be disappointed.

I also disagree that this is the big shift in development. IMO the design shift started in 2019...when Rick and Joel decided the best course of action was to re-release the game to console. That's when they started to simplify the PC game they WERE building, to make it fit on console, instead of continuing what they had for the PC gamers, and porting over what they could for console, AFTER having met the kick starter goals.

While I agree that the latter would have been the better course, I disagree on there being a big design shift. Sure, there were optimizations everywhere to make it fit on console, including a few actual gameplay changes, for example with zombie spawns, but all those downgrade discussions were exaggerated.
If any item in the game was removed before 2019 it was postulated by some gamers to be "for no reason at all", even though they just could have asked here and one or more reasons could have been listed. If any item in the game was removed after 2019 it suddenly was "because of console", again no questions asked but just assumed there could be no other reason.

Getting Bandits (and Story) done first would have meant that TFP had finished a game... Now they have sold out having completed nothing. I assume BI is only keeping the TFP name alive so they don't have to republish the game, but, the company is effectively dead, they all work for BI now.

Correct. Though this happens to many developers once they reach a certain size. For many company owners the sale to a bigger fish may even be the eventual goal they work towards.

While I appreciate you acknowledging that mods play a large role in the replayability...many on the PC side want to argue it is only a small margin who even play modded. over and over they will throw out 80% play without mods...but...with nothing to back that up.

That is where theory meets reality. Many players shy away from the complexity of installing mods themselves or the hassle with bugs and incompatibilites, and the solution to play-how-you-want was less than universal. That is why TFP had a plan to eventually add steam workshop support for the game.

Still, for many players (25%(?) of a large number is still a large number) who's pain playing a version they didn't like was larger than the reluctance or fear to install mods it provided a solution. Probably there are a lot of players who even learned new things about PC handling that way.

 

[Old Crow]

On-topic but different direction - I hope Behavior makes the devs fix the ladder climbing animation.

Yeah I get the idea behind wanting to shoot in any direction on a ladder, but y'know what? having players and zombies just walk/run up ladders looks unprofessional. And you can still shoot from any direction on a ladder with a normal animation.

 

[HammerDano]

I only know they said they have been working on updates like 2.x and bandits concurrently. Quite possible that I missed that bit about bandits and story, but I would guess that bandits and story will not be released in the same update.

By the way, years ago Roland warned people here in the forum to expect too much from bandits and story. If you do you will surely be disappointed.

I will try to find the quote, but, I am fairly positive that faatal said that they were working on Bandits and Story development at the same time. Though I agree that does not mean that they will be released together. I took it to mean they wanted to make sure the two things meshed in a way that made some sense.

I don't really care what Roland has to say...it's been a whole lot of hot air.

I am sorry but, if Bandits took 10 years plus and still suck...It's not the Bandits fault. Every time I see faatal or a Mod say, "they weren't promised in every Alpha" or "well now they ARE working on them" I want to go on a rampage.

I don't know what to expect with the Story line or how they plan on implementing one. Is it going to be letters and notes? old newspaper articles? all of the above and more? that does seem to be the expectation...that it will be stuff to read. a non event of trivia. no more effort than that. I highly doubt there will be cut away movie shorts of story telling. Not that I want that.

the "story" has long been just seen as the back story.

I am slightly hopeful that at least one of the long awaited new "quests" will be meeting the boss in some way...but...not holding my breath for it to happen.

While I agree that the latter would have been the better course, I disagree on there being a big design shift. Sure, there were optimizations everywhere to make it fit on console, including a few actual gameplay changes, for example with zombie spawns, but all those downgrade discussions were exaggerated.
If any item in the game was removed before 2019 it was postulated by some gamers to be "for no reason at all", even though they just could have asked here and one or more reasons could have been listed. If any item in the game was removed after 2019 it suddenly was "because of console", again no questions asked but just assumed there could be no other reason.

sorry, but, "design shift" was from your original response to this.

That principle doesn't work with console though. So this update is a major design shift (even with a few detrimental effects for modding by the way) and gives to console players some of the "options" that have increased the PC versions replayability massively.

Then why was it not the path followed? honestly, it just looks like Rick and Joel rushed the re-release to console to get a better price when they sold out. I suppose that's at least part of why we are not going to get a straight answer about when did they start shopping the company or when did they start negotiating with BI in earnest.

Correct. Though this happens to many developers once they reach a certain size. For many company owners the sale to a bigger fish may even be the eventual goal they work towards.

well...

That is where theory meets reality. Many players shy away from the complexity of installing mods themselves or the hassle with bugs and incompatibilites, and the solution to play-how-you-want was less than universal. That is why TFP had a plan to eventually add steam workshop support for the game.

Still, for many players (25%(?) of a large number is still a large number) who's pain playing a version they didn't like was larger than the reluctance or fear to install mods it provided a solution. Probably there are a lot of players who even learned new things about PC handling that way.

be nice if we had data. I don't pretend that everyone plays modded. What's one of the first questions you guys ask when a PC guy asks about their game not working? (it's do you have any mods installed...as it is so common to be the cause of failure) how many of you don't regard small QOL modlets as modded?
I think there's a separate question of "how many people only bought the game because of content creators?" most of the bigger content creators rely on mods, so many people are/were introduced to the game by watching people playing on or with mods. Does that count? To me it does...those people, while maybe not playing modded themselves, are only playing because of watching modded content.
I am not saying no one plays vanilla...I am saying that mods have had a lot to do with the popularity and/or longevity in general.


most of the argument is moot...we are all in the dark, waiting to see what happens with the new guys. There is no recourse.

We'd all be better off if Everyone involved had just kept their mouth shut about the sale until they were actually ready to start talking and moving forward. imo
If both parties thought they had a captive audience and it would all die down in a few months...I think they were very wrong.

 

[meganoth]

I don't know what to expect with the Story line or how they plan on implementing one. Is it going to be letters and notes? old newspaper articles? all of the above and more? that does seem to be the expectation...that it will be stuff to read. a non event of trivia. no more effort than that. I highly doubt there will be cut away movie shorts of story telling. Not that I want that.

the "story" has long been just seen as the back story.

I am slightly hopeful that at least one of the long awaited new "quests" will be meeting the boss in some way...but...not holding my breath for it to happen.

I certainly expect a series of linked quest to go against one of the factions. This was mentioned as a coming feature multiple times.

sorry, but, "design shift" was from your original response to this.

Yes, I talked about the design shift of 3.0 to add dozens of options and even modes to give consoleros a substitute to the missing mods.

You were talking about a design shift starting in 2019 of dumbing down the game, which I am saying in the reply didn't happen.

Then why was it not the path followed? honestly, it just looks like Rick and Joel rushed the re-release to console to get a better price when they sold out. I suppose that's at least part of why we are not going to get a straight answer about when did they start shopping the company or when did they start negotiating with BI in earnest.

When do companies ever talk in detail about their bussiness plans? Never. When has TFP ever talked about details of their bussiness dealings before? Never.
So picking some 7years plan as the reason for them not giving further details when they always were silent about such details is a theory on thin ice

well...


be nice if we had data. I don't pretend that everyone plays modded. What's one of the first questions you guys ask when a PC guy asks about their game not working? (it's do you have any mods installed...as it is so common to be the cause of failure) how many of you don't regard small QOL modlets as modded?

Mods as the cause is one reason (especially since old incompatible mods, often forgotten, are quite common as a cause), but there is another reason as well: When we read logs we look for differences to what we normally see. Mods generate additional differences in the logfile and that way can hide the actual lines that would give us a hint.

And that also means that at least I regard small QOL modlets like any other mod as problematic when looking for problems.

I think there's a separate question of "how many people only bought the game because of content creators?" most of the bigger content creators rely on mods, so many people are/were introduced to the game by watching people playing on or with mods. Does that count? To me it does...those people, while maybe not playing modded themselves, are only playing because of watching modded content.
I am not saying no one plays vanilla...I am saying that mods have had a lot to do with the popularity and/or longevity in general.

Agreed.

most of the argument is moot...we are all in the dark, waiting to see what happens with the new guys. There is no recourse.

We'd all be better off if Everyone involved had just kept their mouth shut about the sale until they were actually ready to start talking and moving forward. imo
If both parties thought they had a captive audience and it would all die down in a few months...I think they were very wrong.

So you think it would have been better if in say 3 months some new guy came on the forum and told us that the company had been sold for 3 months already? And YOU would have been fine with that? Hard to believe.

What would they think would die? There are a few people here discussing and worrying, maybe in other forums a handful of guys explode with outrage. But apart from that I see no "storm" that they would want to die down. Though granted, since I ignore the blogosphere and other forums I may not be aware of it.

 

[HammerDano]

I certainly expect a series of linked quest to go against one of the factions. This was mentioned as a coming feature multiple times.

since there is apparently a cutoff somewhere around, the Bandits update, for what remains "the same" ...we'll have to wait and see.

Yes, I talked about the design shift of 3.0 to add dozens of options and even modes to give consoleros a substitute to the missing mods.

You were talking about a design shift starting in 2019 of dumbing down the game, which I am saying in the reply didn't happen.

agree to disagree

When do companies ever talk in detail about their bussiness plans? Never. When has TFP ever talked about details of their bussiness dealings before? Never.
So picking some 7years plan as the reason for them not giving further details when they always were silent about such details is a theory on thin ice

we hear about companies acquiring other companies all the time. Do they have the right to keep the details to themselves? sure
does it have the appearance of wanting to hide information because it might be "harmful" in some way, to a party or parties involved? sure does

Mods as the cause is one reason (especially since old incompatible mods, often forgotten, are quite common as a cause), but there is another reason as well: When we read logs we look for differences to what we normally see. Mods generate additional differences in the logfile and that way can hide the actual lines that would give us a hint.

And that also means that at least I regard small QOL modlets like any other mod as problematic when looking for problems.



Agreed.

agreed

So you think it would have been better if in say 3 months some new guy came on the forum and told us that the company had been sold for 3 months already? And YOU would have been fine with that? Hard to believe.

What would they think would die? There are a few people here discussing and worrying, maybe in other forums a handful of guys explode with outrage. But apart from that I see no "storm" that they would want to die down. Though granted, since I ignore the blogosphere and other forums I may not be aware of it.

yes, I do think it would have been better.
As you have pointed out, they didn't have to go into any detail, did they? why would they even bother to say that they sold the company three months ago? they sure didn't tell "us" that they have been looking to sell for who knows how long...many of you don't seem too concerned about that.

Up front honesty is generally the better policy. That has been in short supply. I would have preferred to know they were shopping the company before I bought a copy of the "new" game...pretty sure I wouldn't have been the only one who said "no thanks" if I had known TFP leadership were looking to get the ■■■■ out before their game was finished.

 

[theFlu]

pretty sure I wouldn't have been the only one who said "no thanks" if I had known TFP leadership were looking to get the ■■■■ out before their game was finished.

While that part of the deal seems rotten, there's also an "unfair" possibility with the release of such info. Having a major public meltdown over a simple "we're talking about selling the company" is a great way to scare off a buyer, regardless if the meltdown is warranted; so nobody will ever announce a sale or even the intent to sell in advance. I highly respect truth, but brutality of mobs is a real thing.

Now, I shouldn't do this as I have no info, but I'll feed another little conspiratory idea here. Just because I find it amusing.
If we're to assume that such a sale will take about a year to negotiate, at least; and think back in time. We land on the public backlash that happened at 2.0 launch. Negotiations had already started, and now the company is getting flooded with negative reviews... gives the "emergency fixes" -patch a bit of a different taste. Were they just trying to placate the mob, for the deal? Does "you guys didn't like 2.0 so we have to postpone other stuff to fix it" make a little more sense?

 

[HammerDano]

While that part of the deal seems rotten, there's also an "unfair" possibility with the release of such info. Having a major public meltdown over a simple "we're talking about selling the company" is a great way to scare off a buyer, regardless if the meltdown is warranted; so nobody will ever announce a sale or even the intent to sell in advance. I highly respect truth, but brutality of mobs is a real thing.

Now, I shouldn't do this as I have no info, but I'll feed another little conspiratory idea here. Just because I find it amusing.
If we're to assume that such a sale will take about a year to negotiate, at least; and think back in time. We land on the public backlash that happened at 2.0 launch. Negotiations had already started, and now the company is getting flooded with negative reviews... gives the "emergency fixes" -patch a bit of a different taste. Were they just trying to placate the mob, for the deal? Does "you guys didn't like 2.0 so we have to postpone other stuff to fix it" make a little more sense?

I see validity to what you are saying. Of course they are going to do what is in their own best interest...and honesty be ■■■■ed.

Here's a slight counter to your shennanagans : A deal like this was likely started before the relaunch. It easily could have taken around two years to do a deal like this. (which is what I am leaning towards). It would be nice to know when did Rick and Joel start shopping the company around and when did they start earnest negotiations with BI, but, "we" are never going to get that info. "we" can't even get the info on how many copies sold to console...what do the console retention numbers look like. (i'd be happy to see even the peak numbers for a reference)

oh well

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

I updated my history gram of the game.

Points of interest
Story: This is mainly my prediction that follows the same sentiment expressed,
by Roland. A simple or basic linear progression to conclusion, with nodes, that
loop back onto the central thought, direction or goal.

The game has gone through 4 major growth spurts, and some minor ones.

Notable history
Year 2018 A17 Shawn 'faatal' Liptak joined the team, Graphics were enhanced.

Year 2024 V2.0 Console readded to the stable.

Year 2026 2.6 Sold company to Behavior Interactive.

I did it like this because it gives me a transparent view and visual picture of the historical changes,
events and their effects on popularity and sales.

 

[HammerDano]

@4sheetzngeegles how is this meant to be read? not being sarcastic....I just don't know what this is trying to say.
story mode is not implemented...how is it central? for example.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

@4sheetzngeegles how is this meant to be read? not being sarcastic....I just don't know what this is trying to say.
story mode is not implemented...how is it central? for example.

I don't take it as sarcastic. It is a lot. And I didn't include a legend.

The middle picture is the expansion of the game itself. Meaning assets, mechanics, player dream addons.
so the black and gray is the overall size of the game content.

But a story is linear, beginning to end. The nodes would be quests or events to support it, but it won't
stray far from the central point and will return to that single path. It was just showing the size of content
for the story vs the basic game play.

On the right is the actual time line of the game, from a progression and a business point of view.

EDIT: In he beginning the game was only a few hundred megabyte, now it is over 20Gigabyte
it has expanded nearly 30 times the original size. That's a lot of additions.

Edit 2: at the top was the condensing that began, many players refer to it as the simplification of the
game. So all of it is basically at this point being squeezed into a smaller mould, while trying to keep
with player expectations.

 

[beerfly]

 

[HammerDano]

I don't take it as sarcastic. It is a lot. And I didn't include a legend.

The middle picture is the expansion of the game itself. Meaning assets, mechanics, player dream addons.
so the black and gray is the overall size of the game content.

But a story is linear, beginning to end. The nodes would be quests or events to support it, but it won't
stray far from the central point and will return to that single path. It was just showing the size of content
for the story vs the basic game play.

On the right is the actual time line of the game, from a progression and a business point of view.

EDIT: In he beginning the game was only a few hundred megabyte, now it is over 20Gigabyte
it has expanded nearly 30 times the original size. That's a lot of additions.

Edit 2: at the top was the condensing that began, many players refer to it as the simplification of the
game. So all of it is basically at this point being squeezed into a smaller mould, while trying to keep
with player expectations.

thank you

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

thank you

You are welcome.

The ironic part is that I created it in December 2023, to get an idea of how much a story
would interact with, the overall game at that point. It had no time lines, No mention of console,
just the expansion, and contraction at the top, and the story thought overlayed in the center, to
make it fit, The left wording and dates was the second, version, and the time line on the right,
and changing I to they was the most recent.

I didn't realize that I was looking at a rudimentary model of what is now. But I kind of had a clue.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

On-topic but different direction - I hope Behavior makes the devs fix the ladder climbing animation.

Yeah I get the idea behind wanting to shoot in any direction on a ladder, but y'know what? having players and zombies just walk/run up ladders looks unprofessional. And you can still shoot from any direction on a ladder with a normal animation.

Your post got me to go take a look at ladders and climbing in games. The ladders here are blocks
and since all of the blocks are uniform 1 x 1 x 1 meter. That may be one of the unspoken reasons
that it isn't there also. From the different games I checked, DS, I am alive, Prince of Persia, TombRaider,
then there is also a vid on the tube that has 50 games, and how it is approached. The ladder would have
to be turned into an item asset, and widened so the character didn't look flickted, or had to lean far back
to compensate for the angle.

A ladder could probably be cheesed in as a low poly, using the plant atlas. Front/back then side side.
It would probably have to be scaled to get it to visually and mechanically work outside of the block perimeter.
Then add some inverse kinetic animation to the state machine.

 

[Old Crow]

Your post got me to go take a look at ladders and climbing in games. The ladders here are blocks
and since all of the blocks are uniform 1 x 1 x 1 meter. That may be one of the unspoken reasons
that it isn't there also. From the different games I checked, DS, I am alive, Prince of Persia, TombRaider,
then there is also a vid on the tube that has 50 games, and how it is approached. The ladder would have
to be turned into an item asset, and widened so the character didn't look flickted, or had to lean far back
to compensate for the angle.

A ladder could probably be cheesed in as a low poly, using the plant atlas. Front/back then side side.
It would probably have to be scaled to get it to visually and mechanically work outside of the block perimeter.
Then add some inverse kinetic animation to the state machine.

So basically Faatal doesn't want to do that so he can shoot in every direction from ladders (which was his reasoning for no ladder animations).

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

So basically Faatal doesn't want to do that so he can shoot in every direction from ladders (which was his reasoning for no ladder animations).

I don't know. But even though he is the most present one here, he wasn't in charge.
So it might not have been considered a priority.
Here is the link to the video. Look at the ladder width to the body, when hands are on the inside of
the rails. The thinner ones and those with thicker avatars, are actually made to hold the outside.