4.0 A new threat update - Bandits?

[HammerDano]

Well there is this character named Neo....nvm.

where/who is our white rabbit?

 

[Blue mame]

I witnessed a massive argument. What was supposed to be a discussion about TFP didn't need to be taken so seriously. I don't have a serious prejudice against TFP. The heated discussion among influential players on the forum steered the discussion elsewhere. Vigorous rebuttals only lead to more intense conflict. Our discussion should be beneficial to TFP, not a pointless dispute. Even if it's being criticized, there's no need to make things so heated. As the saying goes, "the deeper the love, the deeper the hate." Do these intense voices dislike the game? No, it's precisely because they like it that they're so frequent and enthusiastic. Would refuting all the criticisms today really benefit the community? Frankly, I personally don't like it when people say my mods are bad. I felt misunderstood. I fiercely refuted them, and in the end, I found that these critical voices disappeared; they silently left my community. Then I fell into a long period of narcissism, my community dwindled, and I received no feedback. This is my true experience. I am still paying the price for my past recklessness. I wish those voices of criticism were still there, because they were the guiding lights that propelled me forward.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

some companies are trying to follow the live service game model

That's just the worst version of "Games as a Service," imo. Might as well download Candy Crush Saga. "Build it and they will come" didn't work out too well for the industry, though, did it? Turns out trying to produce the next Fortnite by tasking every studio and its neighbor -- even single player studios with no experience whatsoever in producing multiplayer games -- to produce one is not a good idea, much less trying to have it both ways and charge full price for the game, then nickle and dime people to death with it besides.

The "acceptable" version, at least according to industry heads, is that we no longer own copies even of the complete single player games we've supposedly purchased from various distribution platforms over the years -- Xbox, Playstation, Steam, GOG, etc. -- and are just going to have to get "comfortable" with not owning the games we buy for subscription services to "take off." (It was an Ubisoft exec who said that, specifically.) Even the PC gaming community's darling, Steam, updated its TOS to "clarify" we don't own the copies of games we've bought over the years. Is anyone doing anything about it? No. It's been normalized. It's "standard practice" for all software now. (See: Adobe, et al.) And we're going to be signing onto it every time we "lease" a new game. That's why I don't think that when industry heads speak of "the problem of getting everyone on the Internet" they're concerned about the less fortunate among us, but only thinking about "demographics" they can't tap for profit because they're not on the Internet. I further think it's all unconscious. All anyone among the public can do, for the moment, is be aware of it, avoid it as much as possible and, maybe, fume about it because the foxes are guarding the hen house, so to speak, or are asleep on the job. I can't really tell which.

for me...it was pointed enough

I guess just not for me. Those are symptoms of the dis-ease, afic. What lies beneath is the real bugbear, considering we were all born and conditioned in it. It's been changing since at least Voyager was turned around to take that iconic picture of the planet, imo, but you'd never know it to look only at the surface appearance of things.

Back to bandits....

 

[Double G]

people saying "most people don't play Modded content". I think that is a ridiculous statement. Do they mean that the people who walked away from the game do not engage with modded content?

No. It means that most active players are not using mods. Without any legit stats that is the most sensible conclusion to make because most players of any game are casuals.

Most players of games also don't go on forums and Reddit and Twitter, etc. You're seeing things from your perspective and the perspective of those that are invested enough to come to the internet and post about things, aka power users.

Most players of games don't even go too deep into in-game settings let alone figuring out how to find mods and find where the folders might be for them to place them.

There's even a good amount of people that don't even know how to unzip the folders properly for mods, and those are the ones that are going out of their way to install them.

You're overestimating people. They're not as engaged and as savvy as you think.

 

[Uncle Al]

No. It means that most active players are not using mods. Without any legit stats that is the most sensible conclusion to make because most players of any game are casuals.

Most players of games also don't go on forums and Reddit and Twitter, etc. You're seeing things from your perspective and the perspective of those that are invested enough to come to the internet and post about things, aka power users.

Most players of games don't even go too deep into in-game settings let alone figuring out how to find mods and find where the folders might be for them to place them.

There's even a good amount of people that don't even know how to unzip the folders properly for mods, and those are the ones that are going out of their way to install them.

You're overestimating people. They're not as engaged and as savvy as you think.

This is so true.

It's kind of surprising TFP, and indeed any developer, listens to us (forum users) as much as they do.

Commercially, pretty much all your significant direct revenue comes from people who'll buy the game, never install a mod, never post about it anywhere and will probably play 10-30 hours in a handful of playthroughs.

TFP have to cater to those people, or they wouldn't have survived as a business.

Once you understand that, a lot of decisions made about the game make sense.

 

[murky water]

-snip-

while i have some quibbles with the finer details the overarching statement is accurate enough i wouldnt argue them here.

 

[Blue mame]

No. It means that most active players are not using mods. Without any legit stats that is the most sensible conclusion to make because most players of any game are casuals.

Most players of games also don't go on forums and Reddit and Twitter, etc. You're seeing things from your perspective and the perspective of those that are invested enough to come to the internet and post about things, aka power users.

Most players of games don't even go too deep into in-game settings let alone figuring out how to find mods and find where the folders might be for them to place them.

There's even a good amount of people that don't even know how to unzip the folders properly for mods, and those are the ones that are going out of their way to install them.

You're overestimating people. They're not as engaged and as savvy as you think.

You're absolutely right, that's reality. The average player doesn't pay attention to mods. I can only give a conservative estimate: over 80% of players won't look for or install mods. You've interpreted this problem from the perspective of a normal player. A normal player should buy the game, play the content, and then quietly leave when they get bored. That's why TFP's opening of the Steam Workshop is so urgent. Also, a large portion of players don't accept unofficial content because they feel it's not authentic; they play for self-identification. In their minds, third-party mods are inferior products. Since I learned to modify and create mods, I've forgotten to look at things from a normal player's perspective. Your comments have greatly impacted me; I've finally seen the problem from a normal perspective.

Your comment is the most meaningful one I've seen in years.

 

[Roland]

Why should any of us believe that Bandits will be showing up?

Seriously guys, you have exhausted every ounce of goodwill you once had with your community.

Gaslight us some more please...

My Stockholm syndrome isn't fully locked in yet

There’s no doubt that TFP deserves to be treated like the boy who cried wolf. I totally understand the skepticism that THIS time bandits will release in the “next” update.

I can tell you that I’ve seen firsthand more development activity for bandits than ever before—way more than existed even the first time they attempted to bring bandits to the game.

The wolves eventually did come for that kid’s sheep and bandits are definitely coming regardless of the false starts of the past. Fortunately for us it will be a happy day when bandits show up.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Fortunately for us it will be a happy day when bandits show up.

Questionable.

 

[HammerDano]

You're absolutely right, that's reality. The average player doesn't pay attention to mods. I can only give a conservative estimate: over 80% of players won't look for or install mods. You've interpreted this problem from the perspective of a normal player. A normal player should buy the game, play the content, and then quietly leave when they get bored. That's why TFP's opening of the Steam Workshop is so urgent. Also, a large portion of players don't accept unofficial content because they feel it's not authentic; they play for self-identification. In their minds, third-party mods are inferior products. Since I learned to modify and create mods, I've forgotten to look at things from a normal player's perspective. Your comments have greatly impacted me; I've finally seen the problem from a normal perspective.

Your comment is the most meaningful one I've seen in years.

No. It means that most active players are not using mods. Without any legit stats that is the most sensible conclusion to make because most players of any game are casuals.

Most players of games also don't go on forums and Reddit and Twitter, etc. You're seeing things from your perspective and the perspective of those that are invested enough to come to the internet and post about things, aka power users.

Most players of games don't even go too deep into in-game settings let alone figuring out how to find mods and find where the folders might be for them to place them.

There's even a good amount of people that don't even know how to unzip the folders properly for mods, and those are the ones that are going out of their way to install them.

You're overestimating people. They're not as engaged and as savvy as you think.

Guys...you are using a "trust me bro" argument.

Using your same logic I would/could argue that the 7days to die creators, who draw in and retain a lot of 7 days to die players, use mods, and play a lot of modded content. People want to play what they see, so people are exposed to and far more likely to be open to using mods. I'd say the number of people who currently claim to play "unmodded" actually have a couple of small quality of life mods installed...what they mean by unmodded is they don't play the full overhaul mods...they see how often they would have to update drivers and files...wait for the mod to be updated because the game got an update. They might even just be waiting for the game to be finished so the mods won't "break" so often, before finally getting to try Darkness Falls. lol
I agree that most games are played casually...I would ask if you could agree that SOME games have more non casual fans? because I think that this game is one of those.

 

[Blue mame]

Guys...you are using a "trust me bro" argument.

Using your same logic I would/could argue that the 7days to die creators, who draw in and retain a lot of 7 days to die players, use mods, and play a lot of modded content. People want to play what they see, so people are exposed to and far more likely to be open to using mods. I'd say the number of people who currently claim to play "unmodded" actually have a couple of small quality of life mods installed...what they mean by unmodded is they don't play the full overhaul mods...they see how often they would have to update drivers and files...wait for the mod to be updated because the game got an update. They might even just be waiting for the game to be finished so the mods won't "break" so often, before finally getting to try Darkness Falls. lol
I agree that most games are played casually...I would ask if you could agree that SOME games have more non casual fans? because I think that this game is one of those.

With over 20 million copies sold, it should be clear just from forum activity alone that the vast majority of players never download or install mods at all.


I’m simply looking at things from a different perspective and acknowledging what I previously overlooked. I have never denied all the great value and benefits that mods bring to the game.


I sense you’re looking to argue with me here, but have you actually fully read and understood everything I’ve been saying in my previous messages?

 

[Roland]

Questionable.

Well—I meant for me. Arguably it will be for someone like you too since there will be sandbox options for bandits as well and you’ll be able to turn them off and remain happy.

 

[HammerDano]

With over 20 million copies sold, it should be clear just from forum activity alone that the vast majority of players never download or install mods at all.


I’m simply looking at things from a different perspective and acknowledging what I previously overlooked. I have never denied all the great value and benefits that mods bring to the game.


I sense you’re looking to argue with me here, but have you actually fully read and understood everything I’ve been saying in my previous messages?

over 20 million copies sold...how many daily players on steam? (TFP don't tell us what the console engagement is at, so we know the daily player count is higher...just not by how much) I am trying to get you to see that the vast majority of people who bought the game already moved on. I am also trying to argue that the smaller percentage of people who bought the game and are still playing the game, have been playing for years...that this game has higher number of people who are not casual...this is their ride or die game.

Is there any steam chart that tracks how many people are playing an overhaul mod...or played one in the past? (it would be great if there was...then we'd have some legit...but incomplete numbers to discuss)
is there anyway to track how many people have downloaded a mod from this site?

since even TFP don't use their own forum for major announcements (like the recent AMA) maybe it's not the best example of player engagement?

I am not looking to just argue...my response was to you and Double G...and it was intended to show that you both were using opinion not fact.

his argument is:

No. It means that most active players are not using mods. Without any legit stats that is the most sensible conclusion to make because most players of any game are casuals.

Most players of games also don't go on forums and Reddit and Twitter, etc. You're seeing things from your perspective and the perspective of those that are invested enough to come to the internet and post about things, aka power users.

Most players of games don't even go too deep into in-game settings let alone figuring out how to find mods and find where the folders might be for them to place them.

There's even a good amount of people that don't even know how to unzip the folders properly for mods, and those are the ones that are going out of their way to install them.

You're overestimating people. They're not as engaged and as savvy as you think.

and I am countering this with:

Guys...you are using a "trust me bro" argument.

Using your same logic I would/could argue that the 7days to die creators, who draw in and retain a lot of 7 days to die players, use mods, and play a lot of modded content. People want to play what they see, so people are exposed to and far more likely to be open to using mods. I'd say the number of people who currently claim to play "unmodded" actually have a couple of small quality of life mods installed...what they mean by unmodded is they don't play the full overhaul mods...they see how often they would have to update drivers and files...wait for the mod to be updated because the game got an update. They might even just be waiting for the game to be finished so the mods won't "break" so often, before finally getting to try Darkness Falls. lol
I agree that most games are played casually...I would ask if you could agree that SOME games have more non casual fans? because I think that this game is one of those.

because we are both just using opinion, everyone who read this, is free to interpret it for themselves...i just want them to know (and you) that there was not a verified fact in sight.

 

[meganoth]

Guys...you are using a "trust me bro" argument.

Using your same logic I would/could argue that the 7days to die creators, who draw in and retain a lot of 7 days to die players, use mods, and play a lot of modded content. People want to play what they see, so people are exposed to and far more likely to be open to using mods. I'd say the number of people who currently claim to play "unmodded" actually have a couple of small quality of life mods installed...what they mean by unmodded is they don't play the full overhaul mods...they see how often they would have to update drivers and files...wait for the mod to be updated because the game got an update. They might even just be waiting for the game to be finished so the mods won't "break" so often, before finally getting to try Darkness Falls. lol
I agree that most games are played casually...I would ask if you could agree that SOME games have more non casual fans? because I think that this game is one of those.

So your opinion is everyone who says he isn't using mods must be lying (either to himself or to make a point)?

I have 2 games running currently, a solo game and a game I play together with a friend. In both games there are no mods at all. No convenience mods, nothing. And I would have no technical problems adding mods if I wanted.

 

[Blue mame]

I am not looking to just argue...my response was to you and Double G...and it was intended to show that you both were using opinion not fact.

You are twisting the entire premise of this discussion, and none of your points actually disprove what Double G and I have been arguing.


Yes, it is true that most of those 20 million buyers have long moved on from the game. However, the small percentage of long-term, dedicated players who remain is still nothing more than a niche minority within the game’s overall player base. You keep conflating this loyal core audience with the majority of all players, and that is your fundamental logical flaw.


All of your questions regarding the lack of available tracking data — no Steam metrics for overhaul mod players, no public mod download statistics, no disclosed engagement numbers — only strengthen our argument, not yours. We have never once claimed to possess absolute, concrete facts or complete player population statistics. Our stance is simply reasonable, universal common sense: the vast majority of average casual gamers will never seek out, install, or experiment with mods. Most players do not even delve deep into in-game settings, let alone mod file directories and third-party modifications.


This also perfectly aligns with our original point. The players active on forums, social media and online communities are merely the invested, hardcore minority. The enormous silent majority of casual players never appear in these online discussions, never talk about the game publicly, and never touch mods at all.


You keep accusing us of relying solely on opinion rather than factual evidence, yet you are the one constructing your entire argument from unproven assumptions. With zero supporting data, you presume this small veteran core player base defines the entire audience of the game. Complete factual data does not exist for either side of this debate, yet you selectively criticize us for subjective reasoning while ignoring your own.


We have never presented our viewpoint as irrefutable proven fact. We have only stated the realistic, widespread behavior of most mainstream game players. All of your points regarding abandoned game copies, loyal long-term players, and missing statistical data do nothing at all to counter this.

This is what you wanted. If it's not enough, I can debate with you for three days and three nights.

 

[HammerDano]

So your opinion is everyone who says he isn't using mods must be lying (either to himself or to make a point)?

I have 2 games running currently, a solo game and a game I play together with a friend. In both games there are no mods at all. No convenience mods, nothing. And I would have no technical problems adding mods if I wanted.

and you represent the entire audience?

my opinion is just that...an opinion. It's based off of conversations, and articles, and watching a ton of content....but, it's still just an opinion. I am not arguing that my opinion is a "common sense" fact.

 

[Blue mame]

and you represent the entire audience?

my opinion is just that...an opinion. It's based off of conversations, and articles, and watching a ton of content....but, it's still just an opinion. I am not arguing that my opinion is a "common sense" fact.

He is stating a fact, while you are fabricating a question.

 

[Double G]

Guys...you are using a "trust me bro" argument.

I'm much more confident in my "trust me bro" than your "trust me bro".

It is known that games are dominated by casuals. Wanna sell a lot of games...make them as easy as possible. Even Baldur's Gate 3, a much bigger game than 7 Days to Die with a much bigger modding community stated that 40% of their players use mods, and that was after the devs patched in official mod support, 4 years after the initial release of the game. Mod.io states: "Our case studies show that above 40% of players engage with mods when they’re accessible in-game, which is an increase of at least 400% compared to relying on third party solutions and manual installation".

mod.io Newsletter: Component UI

Our 2024 year in review, and introducing our latest UI solution for easy integration of custom UI when using our Unity & Unreal plugins.

newsletter.mod.io

Third party solutions (Nexus, 7DaysToDie.com) and manual installation ("where are the folders I need to put these mods in?").

Most 7 Days to Die players are not using mods, waiting for updates to use mods, or whatever. That is the most sensible deduction to make on the matter.

 

[Jost Amman]

Bandits will liven up the world.

 

[HammerDano]

You are twisting the entire premise of this discussion, and none of your points actually disprove what Double G and I have been arguing.


Yes, it is true that most of those 20 million buyers have long moved on from the game. However, the small percentage of long-term, dedicated players who remain is still nothing more than a niche minority within the game’s overall player base. You keep conflating this loyal core audience with the majority of all players, and that is your fundamental logical flaw.


All of your questions regarding the lack of available tracking data — no Steam metrics for overhaul mod players, no public mod download statistics, no disclosed engagement numbers — only strengthen our argument, not yours. We have never once claimed to possess absolute, concrete facts or complete player population statistics. Our stance is simply reasonable, universal common sense: the vast majority of average casual gamers will never seek out, install, or experiment with mods. Most players do not even delve deep into in-game settings, let alone mod file directories and third-party modifications.


This also perfectly aligns with our original point. The players active on forums, social media and online communities are merely the invested, hardcore minority. The enormous silent majority of casual players never appear in these online discussions, never talk about the game publicly, and never touch mods at all.


You keep accusing us of relying solely on opinion rather than factual evidence, yet you are the one constructing your entire argument from unproven assumptions. With zero supporting data, you presume this small veteran core player base defines the entire audience of the game. Complete factual data does not exist for either side of this debate, yet you selectively criticize us for subjective reasoning while ignoring your own.


We have never presented our viewpoint as irrefutable proven fact. We have only stated the realistic, widespread behavior of most mainstream game players. All of your points regarding abandoned game copies, loyal long-term players, and missing statistical data do nothing at all to counter this.

This is what you wanted. If it's not enough, I can debate with you for three days and three nights.

what you call "twisting the premise" I call presenting a different perspective.
You are both trying to present opinion based on "common sense" as being factual. You seem to be missing the point I am making...neither of us are using verifiable facts. I have been stating that over and over...you didn't get me in a "gotcha".
My arguments do not sway your opinion...you don't like how I interpret what information we have. cool. I am not entitled to know why.