Can someone please explain to me why pve players are so obsessed with jars?
in pvp players are more concerned with building defense strategy and damage balance.
Jars never seem to come up as an issue but the way some of you make out on jars its like your being raided.
Maybe some are but not me. Without jars I just created a lil pool and got a filter in my headgear or used vitamins to preven getting sick whil drinking from it, with the jar system i use that same pool to just refill the jars and cook it. Untill I get to the smoothies ofcourse, then water doesn't bother me at all anymore.
But just wondering, you don't need drinks in PvP? Can imagine you don't need to bother with thirst, sickness or any of that if you get killed all the time but the better players still need to hydrate every once in a while I gues?
@faatal I've been testing random gen maps for a few hours (a few minutes each) in this exp (2.6 b10). This is my feedback:
All I can say is that the changes added to the tiles and district conditions made the generator way more flexible and it shows: You can create a 2k map with 4 TRADERS! Which was impossible before. There are some quirks and issues with elevation in some places, but they are -most of the time- minor. Still testing on that area.
There are several things that are needed and -in my opinion- are a must have for a good generator going forward:
1- The ability to set how the map borders end: Two options, Mountains or Water.
2- The ability to set or force a number of towns into a map I noticed that some seeds in 2.6, like FGY (all caps no spaces, just 3 letters) or NASA (same, 4 letters) for 2k maps just have no towns, so the option, (set to "many") is useless in those (and many other) cases. Of course that requires a more flexible set of Tiles, with smaller ones that are more cost-effective and can populate very small areas and with a good gameplay feeling.
3- The ability to force a number of traders into a map (within reason) , like minimum of five maximum of whatever per map size: (requires even more flexibility to tiles, but yeah).
It would be cool and I reiterate the need for killable and destroyable traders, with wandering traders that inherit every single ongoing quest for every player on the server in real time plus an updated location and also it would be a must to be sure that they don't stand for boolsheet exploits of the kind: " I built my base on top of you and you are my trader now" but instead delete exploiters with gameplay ( they refuse to give quests or sell anything to players with landclaims nearby or they outright delete player-made blocks each night in an area with a warning, unless they pay X fee or they could even try to kill the player or hire goons to do the job (that exploit could -in a way- compel another player to kill the trader as an strategic move to make him spawn somewhere else.... humans Imma right? but fun!)
4- Craters, Rivers, Lakes, and Cracks are bad. Extremely bad. Why? because they lack variety. Only 1 crater with tunned elevation, only 1 river, only a couple of lakes (may also be 1 with tunned elevation lol), cracks? you guessed it. Just the one. With. Tunned. Elevation.
They need more variety. How many? Ok, I would say that 3 different ones per 1 square km would be the absolutely best end to this discussion. So we really need exactly 30-31 of each for endless variety, as 10k is the norm for "populated" servers.
1 could be an option someday as I do want to add more options.
2 Elevation or biome edges are the main thing stopping towns. Reducing mountain settings does help. I may try making towns more aggressive with cutting into terrain someday or as an option.
3 Similar issue as 2 as they mostly want town gateways, but maybe falling back as wilderness traders would work.
4 Yes, they are minimal and mediocre and we do want to replace them and add more. We have a joke about the river stamp looking like a certain body part. I looked at some changing the stamps last year, but to many other things to spend time on. Someday.
I don't know if this is new (2.6) or even if it's a bug, but does anyone know if water should allow you to jump safely from the top of a bridge and splash into the river below?
I tried it today and I hit the bottom of the river immediately breaking a leg. It was, however, shallow water (2 blocks) but I'm curious to know if anyone can confirm if this could work (no fall damage) with deeper lakes/rivers, like it does with straw blocks.
But just wondering, you don't need drinks in PvP? Can imagine you don't need to bother with thirst, sickness or any of that if you get killed all the time but the better players still need to hydrate every once in a while I gues?
thirst management is important in pvp its just not the priority of importance pve players make it out to be. On pvp, players will just raid or kill someone if they need water that bad.
Come on dude. Jars are a big part of 2.6 with the changes to the dew collector and the new default setting for jar return.
So no. Jars are on topic for a 2.6 experimental feedback thread. Stop trying to derail legitimate 2.6 topics. This is the last time I want to read a post from you trying to stifle 2.6 topics.
The icon for nitrate shows a little capsule. Can this be a form of a jar? If I mine 6,000 nitrate and convert it to gunpowder with coal, I want 6,000 jars back. Please and thank you.
I am disappointed in the changes to jars and dew collectors. Having played in 2.5 on both 0% and 100% jar return, I truly don't understand this change. At 0%, dew collectors were necessary for crafting. At 100%, dew collectors were superfluous. The settings in between 0-100 are for people who wanted the illusion of survival without any actual survival. This is the same with people claiming that water should be purified or boiled longer. What they want is the appearance of struggle with the absence of actual friction in gameplay. Complaints about jars have always been about crafting for people who engage with the regular game loop. Thirst is, and will always be, a non-issue as soon as you find a cooking pot. The only thing that has ever been restricted by water is crafting. If none of the crafting recipes required water, there would never be a reason to complain about water because you would never want for it.
Regardless, any non-traditional methods of playing were fully addressed by the changes to jars in 2.5. The change in 2.6 seems to be solely addressed at people who "got" what they wanted and then realized that it made the game worse. Rather than acknowledge they were wrong, they insisted that it was improperly implemented. TFP cannot appease these players because they are incapable of being honest with themselves. They want the Goldilocks experience. They need to feel like they earned something while never being denied what they want when they want it. The porridge will always be too hot for some and too cold for others. And the Goldilocks will never be happy because they don't know what temperature the porridge should be.
Uh-uh, they do serve one purpose. Completing one of the challenges needed for a reward from the trader. Although with how easy the others are (craft and eat charred meat, place a farm plot block, etc.) and with Dew Collectors now being disproportionately more difficult to craft (both in resources and in magazine level to unlock), perhaps it could be switched for something else?
@faatal I've been testing random gen maps for a few hours (a few minutes each) in this exp (2.6 b10). This is my feedback:
All I can say is that the changes added to the tiles and district conditions made the generator way more flexible and it shows: You can create a 2k map with 4 TRADERS! Which was impossible before. There are some quirks and issues with elevation in some places, but they are -most of the time- minor. Still testing on that area.
There are several things that are needed and -in my opinion- are a must have for a good generator going forward:
1- The ability to set how the map borders end: Two options, Mountains or Water.
2- The ability to set or force a number of towns into a map I noticed that some seeds in 2.6, like FGY (all caps no spaces, just 3 letters) or NASA (same, 4 letters) for 2k maps just have no towns, so the option, (set to "many") is useless in those (and many other) cases. Of course that requires a more flexible set of Tiles, with smaller ones that are more cost-effective and can populate very small areas and with a good gameplay feeling.
3- The ability to force a number of traders into a map (within reason) , like minimum of five maximum of whatever per map size: (requires even more flexibility to tiles, but yeah).
It would be cool and I reiterate the need for killable and destroyable traders, with wandering traders that inherit every single ongoing quest for every player on the server in real time plus an updated location and also it would be a must to be sure that they don't stand for boolsheet exploits of the kind: " I built my base on top of you and you are my trader now" but instead delete exploiters with gameplay ( they refuse to give quests or sell anything to players with landclaims nearby or they outright delete player-made blocks each night in an area with a warning, unless they pay X fee or they could even try to kill the player or hire goons to do the job (that exploit could -in a way- compel another player to kill the trader as an strategic move to make him spawn somewhere else.... humans Imma right? but fun!)
4- Craters, Rivers, Lakes, and Cracks are bad. Extremely bad. Why? because they lack variety. Only 1 crater with tunned elevation, only 1 river, only a couple of lakes (may also be 1 with tunned elevation lol), cracks? you guessed it. Just the one. With. Tunned. Elevation.
They need more variety. How many? Ok, I would say that 3 different ones per 1 square km would be the absolutely best end to this discussion. So we really need exactly 30-31 of each for endless variety, as 10k is the norm for "populated" servers.
Although with how easy the others are (craft and eat charred meat, place a farm plot block, etc.) and with Dew Collectors now being disproportionately more difficult to craft (both in resources and in magazine level to unlock), perhaps it could be switched for something else?
I agree with you on this. If you are playing in a group, you *should* be giving magazines to specific people until they complete the series. That means any challenge that requires a lot of magazines to complete will take significantly longer to achieve the more people are in the group. If you have a group of 8 players, how many game days would be required on average for every person in the group to be able to complete the dew collector challenge? Challenges can be actually challenging, but they shouldn't make it so they are basically not possible to complete for everyone in a large group (up to 8 players) without playing for hundreds of days. Placing one is fine since you can use land claims to pick one up and place it again. But crafting it isn't a good challenge now that you need so many magazines.
I reworked water (and jar) balance into a more enjoyable way (for me) to gather and obtain water in my Doom Survival mod.
- Jars are NOT craftable, at all. (Craftable jars = infinite water)
- Open water can be drunken from with open hands and a water purifier that has limited durabilty, but will instantly infect you with open hands or build up a dormant infection with the purifier.
- Jars are filled from sinks, toilets, water coolers and blue barrels.
- Dew collector collects dew water and is crafted into useable water with a jar.
- Every recipe that uses an item containing a jar has a 80% chance to return a useable jar.
I haven't tested yet, but I could see the benefit of the dew collector being the tarp mod if you get two waters from the one jar, or has this been changed? Also the purifier would be nice because every day I have replenished fresh water without waiting to boil the water I fill.
Today I found that a chunk mesh generation visual improvement that went into 2.5, was using a lot of temporary memory, which caused the memory garbage collector to run often. That causes big lag spikes every few seconds. I have a fix and we are planning on getting another build out.
When you speak of loot dumps, are you saying to lower the file size or something else.
I only ask because if it in regard to file size, maybe it works different on a server. But I looked
it up in unity, because i was stuck at the 6080kb limit, in my region and was trying to lower it.
What it said is that in the voxel world removing items, doens not affect the terrain, because it isn't
considered a part of it. I think those items are only stored in the player folder. which is only about a
floppy disc size, under normal conditions.
If it works differently for servers someone let me know please. I have been known to come to some
Bass ackward conclusions B4.
I haven't tested yet, but I could see the benefit of the dew collector being the tarp mod if you get two waters from the one jar, or has this been changed? Also the purifier would be nice because every day I have replenished fresh water without waiting to boil the water I fill.
Don't forget that you are waiting even longer for the water in a dew collector than you wait for it from boiling. You aren't saving any time by using a dew collector versus filling empty jars at a water source and boiling it. It actually takes longer to use the dew collector. And you can only get 18 water for a full run of a dew collector (I believe that's what the patch notes say) versus 60 from a full run of a campfire, so you'd need more than 3x the number of dew collectors to get the same amount of water between collections.
When you speak of loot dumps, are you saying to lower the file size or something else.
I only ask because if it in regard to file size, maybe it works different on a server. But I looked
it up in unity, because i was stuck at the 6080kb limit, in my region and was trying to lower it.
What it said is that in the voxel world removing items, doens not affect the terrain, because it isn't
considered a part of it. I think those items are only stored in the player folder. which is only about a
floppy disc size, under normal conditions.
If it works differently for servers someone let me know please. I have been known to come to some
Bass ackward conclusions B4.
He means loot sinks, as they are more commonly called. It's a way to remove items from a game so you're not stuck with stacks and stacks or crates and crates of the items just sitting around, unable to be used. That is true for most items in the game, though. And there's always the option to sell extra stuff to get rid of it, though then you're just overloading your money that you also can't use and that for some odd reason requires inventory space rather than just being a number on the UI.
But in any case, setting the jar return to 0% also works as a loot sink for jars. Every jar used disappears, so you won't generate a ton of extra jars. The idea that using jars in the dew collector is a good option when they also set the default jar return to 60% is kind of dumb. You'll end up with a ton of jars unless you change the jar return. And as I said, if you have it set to 0%, you'll remove a LOT of jars from the game, regardless of a dew collector not requiring jars. Every use of water would remove jars, which should normally happen faster than you should be getting new jars unless people aren't making glue or they are crafting jars.
When you speak of loot dumps, are you saying to lower the file size or something else.
I only ask because if it in regard to file size, maybe it works different on a server. But I looked
it up in unity, because i was stuck at the 6080kb limit, in my region and was trying to lower it.
What it said is that in the voxel world removing items, doens not affect the terrain, because it isn't
considered a part of it. I think those items are only stored in the player folder. which is only about a
floppy disc size, under normal conditions.
If it works differently for servers someone let me know please. I have been known to come to some
Bass ackward conclusions B4.
in this example maybe can help you understand
when our new seed started backups where around 34 mb zip
as this seed has gone on backups are now over 5GB
now that doesnt means it all because of jars, as everything plays a factor but it does mean loot plays a huge part in that.
in this example maybe can help you understand
when our new seed started backups where around 34 mb zip View attachment 38603
as this seed has gone on backups are now over 5GB View attachment 38602
now that doesnt means it all because of jars, as everything plays a factor but it does mean loot plays a huge part in that.
Yeah, 99% of that isn't related at all to jars. The save size is based mostly on the changes to the world. Every block removed or damaged or added (mines, bases, damage to POI, etc.) adds to the save size. If you have a new map that is unused, the save will be tiny because there aren't any changed blocks. After playing on the map for a while, especially with a large server, you're going to be making a LOT of changes to the map that will increase the save size significantly.
If you really believe it is jars that cause a significant amount of save size increase, then create a new map and don't let anyone on it yet. Join the map and add 20 steel crates filled entirely with empty jars. Then check your save size. If you don't touch terrain or blocks and only add the 20 crates (that's 20 additional blocks, which isn't significant), then you'll have a good idea of the amount of save size all those empty jars creates. It won't be that much. Even if it doubled the save from 34MB to 68MB, that's insignificant when you're talking about 5GB.
@Grandpa Minion in that backup file is it the Region files that are the biggest, or other files?
Edit: After I read the Unity and voxel rules. I stopped emptying lootcontainers to make them disappear, Now I check
my folder and when the region reaches the limit I just move what I need to another area.
Mjölnir the "crusher" or "grinder". After watching a video of a streamer successfully
using a whiffle bat for active crowd control at Grover High. In real life I would record
that video and replay it if a New York squad of police tried it, every time I was feeling
a bit blue. I keep envisioning a hammer instead.
"Whomsoever holds these weapons and armor and invests in all the perks and buffs,
and believes in Unicorns, is therefore worthy, and shall possess.....for limited time only,
the power...of He-man or Chris Hemsworth" depending on your generation.
are you saying than 1% is 0.05 GB is because of jars, which is equivalent to 50 MB? the answer i gave to @4sheetzngeegles was reguarding loot in general, and yes loot effects the amount of save data, which means in my opinion having loot dumps is not a bad thing.
