2.6 Difficulty Changes

[Kyoji]

They have added more challenging spawns to the snow and wasteland biome. I'll have to play and see how it feels but it sounds like it could be interesting.

With that said I wonder if they could go a step farther and implement harder zombies in some of the POIs and perhaps we can finally get some logical loot incentives that give you proper weapons, ammo and attachments when going into military camps or police stations. No more pipe weapons inside these coveted POIs.

For starters it's not intuitive. Every other zombie survival game encourages players to go to these areas for good gear and loot and it makes sense. They balance it by making the area harder to approach whether it be through biome hazards zombies being very challenging.

If these POIs could offer better gear at the expense of it being far more difficult then that would be good IMO.

 

[rateds2k]

Problem I see is if it was not tied to your loot stage then it is too easy to cheese getting the main loot. Using frames and just breaking through a wall. That is the issue with a voxel game. Other games don't have this issue as they can force you a certain way that could be super hard.

 

[Treb]

POI zombie spawns is linked to gamestage which is already influenced by the POI level so those POI already have harder zombie spawns than your level intends.

They could always set a minimum gamestage for some POIs so these always would always spawn tough zombies whether you're level 1 or 50, but it is debatable whether this would turn off or not the more casual players. Maybe a sandbox options or activated at higher difficulty settings?

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

They have added more challenging spawns to the snow and wasteland biome.

In the old days we called it weening. Now it is called cutting your teeth.
It was a smart move, I can imagine what would have been some of the
sentiments and posts if it had been set that way from the beginning as
default.

No more pipe weapons inside these coveted POIs.

Curious question, What biome are you in when you enter these POIs?

For starters it's not intuitive. Every other zombie survival game encourages players to go to these areas for good gear and loot and it makes sense.

Don't you remember, before. The Wasteland was the one place everyone would simultaneously
want to go to and avoid at the same time. It is kind of reverting to the way Madmole liked to play
earlier. When more posts were "this is how I died" comparisons.

 

[Roland]

No more pipe weapons inside these coveted POIs.

That just depends on your loot stage. In my current game the military and police POIs have much better than pipe weapons.

With the voxel world it is so easy to cheese the AI in such a variety of ways to bypass any “approach challenge” that it would just be too easy to get mid and end game gear during the first week if they filled those POIs with higher tier weaponry from the beginning.

 

[Kyoji]

Problem I see is if it was not tied to your loot stage then it is too easy to cheese getting the main loot. Using frames and just breaking through a wall. That is the issue with a voxel game. Other games don't have this issue as they can force you a certain way that could be super hard.

That just depends on your loot stage. In my current game the military and police POIs have much better than pipe weapons.

With the voxel world it is so easy to cheese the AI in such a variety of ways to bypass any “approach challenge” that it would just be too easy to get mid and end game gear during the first week if they filled those POIs with higher tier weaponry from the beginning.

I can understand the worry for "cheesing" and I as well do not wish for easy progression. Other games balance it out with difficulty.

First off why is it so easy to "cheese" in the game? For starters it's a little too easy to get away if in a bad situation and it's too easy to get into loot rooms. I am not a fan of loot rooms but we can fix both issues without needing major gameplay overhauls.

To start you can simply modify certain POIs to have specific spawns. Much like how Bobs Boars always has the boar you can do similar things for other POIs. Second you can change the loot rooms for those POIs to be more secure and guarded.

Curious question, What biome are you in when you enter these POIs?

It's not just about biomes. If you raid a Cop Car and get a pipe weapon that seems silly. So now many avoid them until they are at the game stage to get proper loot from them. Police cars could at least start with a basic pistol or some attachments and gradually expand the loot pool as game stage progresses.

Don't you remember, before. The Wasteland was the one place everyone would simultaneously
want to go to and avoid at the same time. It is kind of reverting to the way Madmole liked to play
earlier. When more posts were "this is how I died" comparisons.

I do remember when the only city was the wasteland and we had the circus and hornets. Was indeed scary and profitable.

 

[meganoth]

I can understand the worry for "cheesing" and I as well do not wish for easy progression. Other games balance it out with difficulty.

First off why is it so easy to "cheese" in the game? For starters it's a little too easy to get away if in a bad situation and it's too easy to get into loot rooms. I am not a fan of loot rooms but we can fix both issues without needing major gameplay overhauls.

To start you can simply modify certain POIs to have specific spawns. Much like how Bobs Boars always has the boar you can do similar things for other POIs. Second you can change the loot rooms for those POIs to be more secure and guarded.

Specific spawns means the POI does not scale well with player progression. That goes both ways, in end game the same POI would be understuffed.

The problem is elswhere: If you raid such a high tier POI you already get better loot because it raises your gamestage. That includes better pipe weapons, which should be a clear upgrade.
But the problem here is that all ranged pipe weapons except for the machine gun are not only useless, they are outright dangerous to use because of low damage and magazine size. Higher quality ranged pipe weapons at least should be buffed so their difference to tier1 stuff is minimal. Or simply remove all of them and have just one ranged pipe weapon similar to pipe machine gun that counts as "weapon of all attributes".

It's not just about biomes. If you raid a Cop Car and get a pipe weapon that seems silly. So now many avoid them until they are at the game stage to get proper loot from them. Police cars could at least start with a basic pistol or some attachments and gradually expand the loot pool as game stage progresses.

I do remember when the only city was the wasteland and we had the circus and hornets. Was indeed scary and profitable.

 

[FranticDan]

With the magazine system, there's already no incentive to leave the forest biome, you can max out the magazines you want to craft the best gear for those magazines, without ever leaving the forest.
Biome specific special loot would be a good start for incentivising other biomes, especially the challenging desert, snow and wasteland biomes.
Currently, harder biomes will challenge you, all risk with no real reward except the satisfaction of surviving it.

 

[grz__]

Regarding difficulty, there are ways to make those higher-level areas more challenging. You can add packs of dogs inside rooms, vulture nests inside as well, demos in certain blind spots that can also cause the ceiling to collapse with more zombies falling from it if programmed correctly, functional screamers at certain points in short, making it almost impossible to loot these places at low levels and thus making the loot very good without being linked or so linked to progression, but if you are able to loot it in the early game, enjoy your reward, risk/ reward.


In my opinion, I would remove the legendary parts and make T6 weapons and tools only obtainable through loot, more specifically in these high-risk locations. Perhaps as a selectable option in the menu. After all, the game is about looting to obtain resources and progress, as well as giving real use to dangerous biomes.

Regarding the ease of cheesing, it can only be avoided by reducing/limiting certain items such as OP buffs or abilities such as nerdpoling. This is sure to be very controversial and not to everyone's liking, but it can be done if options are added for those who like challenges.

 

[Vaeliorin]

After all, the game is about looting to obtain resources and progress, as well as giving real use to dangerous biomes.

That's funny, in my 2500 hours, it's been about mining and building.

 

[grz__]

That's funny, in my 2500 hours, it's been about mining and building.

Sure, the game is a mix of genres. There are people who play without zombies and build medieval castles and fortresses, while I focus on survival and combat and build a shabby, ugly square. But I don't think you can mine food, weapons, and books, right? A big part of the game is looting, no matter what type of player you are.

 

[Uncle Al]

With the magazine system, there's already no incentive to leave the forest biome, you can max out the magazines you want to craft the best gear for those magazines, without ever leaving the forest.
Biome specific special loot would be a good start for incentivising other biomes, especially the challenging desert, snow and wasteland biomes.
Currently, harder biomes will challenge you, all risk with no real reward except the satisfaction of surviving it.

I'm 100% sure we'd benefit from something like advanced firearms parts that only drop at higher loot levels and are required for the top tier firearm recipes.

I'm not certain biome specific loot is the way to go. It falls foul of the 'forcing the players choices' complaint, which doesn't bother me personally, but there does seem to be a group of players to violently object to not being able to play entirely in the forest.

The advantage of restricting access by loot level, not directly by biome, is that everyone eventually gets access to all loot. You just pay for your reduced risk by getting high end items much later if you choose not to leave the forest.

Currently the crafting system is almost entirely divorced from the loot system. The two systems need to interconnect or one of them is inevitably going to render the other one pretty meaningless.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Sure, the game is a mix of genres. There are people who play without zombies and build medieval castles and fortresses, while I focus on survival and combat and build a shabby, ugly square. But I don't think you can mine food, weapons, and books, right? A big part of the game is looting, no matter what type of player you are.

Well, before they added the books, you kinda could. Which is part of the reason I hate the books.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 9:53 AM

I'm not certain biome specific loot is the way to go. It falls foul of the 'forcing the players choices' complaint, which doesn't bother me personally, but there does seem to be a group of players to violently object to not being able to play entirely in the forest.

Make the burnt and wasteland biomes not make me want to rip my eyes out, and we can talk about forcing people into higher biomes.

 

[grz__]

Well, before they added the books, you kinda could. Which is part of the reason I hate the books

With or without books, you need to loot anyway, and it's very rare for anyone to avoid it since it's the most important part of the game. I understand that with the current book system, you need to loot for everything, which can be frustrating, but at the very least you need food, water, ammunition, etc.


My point is to make the rewards from the pois worthwhile and make the t6 items valuable and exciting when you find them. Right now, you can find legendary parts in bags from dead zombies or in the trash [2.5]. That makes it not very exciting.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

It's not just about biomes. If you raid a Cop Car and get a pipe weapon that seems silly.

Spoiler: Why I asked

The question I asked about the biome was because, the game by default is set
to start in the forest, but simultaneously the player's gamestage, lootstage,
and biome progression stage is at it's lowest. So any poi or loot container
I explore or go to in that region and time period, I only expect rudimentary
resources. At that time I only expect the traders to Neegan me a potentially
more useful item.

If it bypassed it then, it would conflict with progressing in biome loot and
gamestage to get better.

My map kind of forces and allows me to transgress all of the biomes early game
in order to seek better equipment if I need it at that point, and I feel my
skillset would allow me to survive. If I was at a beginning stage, and could just
get an M60 and an oversupply of bullets at that point, it would be the same as
as me typing CM, and granting it. Just without typing CM. I do that when testing
ideas, but it does not feel like I'm playing the game, just testing variable changes
I made. Playing puts me in a story, the other way I'm just watching not participating.

Because I take chances, some extremely stupid, then I feel rewarded if I am lucky enough
to find a more useful item in the Higher Biome even if it is the same Poi that I got junk from
in the forest. My mindset that allows me to justify it is simple. People will always seek
low hanging fruit first, The order of the low hanging fruit in this game is, Forest,burnt,
desert,snow,Waste. Add to that is RNG roll that they may have a low probability of missing a
potentially coveted item. I did not spawn in on Day 1, so the invisibles have already ravaged,
those biomes and pois in variable degree, in that order. And paraphrasing Grug "Then they Died".

The higher tier biomes with more dangerous indigenous life allowed less time to search so there
is a higher probability of missed coveted items. Thinking like that gives me a path to follow.

No matter how the game has progressed or continues to progress and change, there are specific
Nuances that I roll over to keep it constant for me.

I do remember when the only city was the wasteland and we had the circus and hornets. Was indeed scary and profitable.

Spoiler: Nsync

That is why every alpha until now, I have rearranged and raised the danger level per biome, to
keep it in synch. I will be trying 2.6 to see if it matches or surpasses my entity spawn and danger
level. If not I will just copy and paste and keep on trukin. Wasteland dominance, as close as possible
to raw damage and resistance, is my end game, With natural, progressive, but not to gimmicky danger. So
my additions are, the quadruped packs, and vultures that attack on sight, and screamers. That's the
Wasteland I remember and like.

 

[Kyoji]

The loot variance I am asking for isn't the best endgame weapon on day one, but a basic pistol, ammo, armor or attachments. Imagine a police station whose loot tables excluded pipe weapons and instead gave basic T1 weapons instead when the RNG rolled for a T0 weapon. That is essentially what I am asking for. It's no different than the toilet pistol but less random. A day one pistol doesn't break the game.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

A day one pistol doesn't break the game.

You are right in that thought. But then I go back to the low hanging fruit scenario.
Probability is extremely low in the beginning. If I want something like that early
game. I go to the desert snow or waste at night in the beginning. To increase
my probability and it usually works out, but not always. Or on my first few days of
travel because I spawn on the other side of a 10k map from my initial trader, I do
partial pois in all of the upper biomes as I rest, and regain the timer, health, and stamina.

But yeah it's just a number so they could raise it. That does not make it silly though
it makes it follow the apocalyptic theme of the game.
The other thing I do is search for traders in the higher tier biomes early on,or as I pass through,
and gather resources for trade.

 

[warmer]

I see loot as being what people left behind that they didnt have room for. Not finding full working modern guns in a military outpost makes sense to me. You would only find the least valuable things they had.

On the flip side, how do you know bandits haven't been through the POI already?

 

[Roland]

A day one pistol doesn't break the game.

True when it happens on the odd playthrough. I certainly don't get an early game toilet pistol every time I play and the primitive level of progression doesn't often get skipped entirely. Now put T1 pistols, shotguns, rifles, and machine guns in certain POIs and you'll pretty much be skipping the primitive stage every single playthrough.

 

[Vaeliorin]

With or without books, you need to loot anyway, and it's very rare for anyone to avoid it since it's the most important part of the game. I understand that with the current book system, you need to loot for everything, which can be frustrating, but at the very least you need food, water, ammunition, etc.


My point is to make the rewards from the pois worthwhile and make the t6 items valuable and exciting when you find them. Right now, you can find legendary parts in bags from dead zombies or in the trash [2.5]. That makes it not very exciting.

I used to loot for a week or two, then spend weeks on end mining and building, looting maybe 1 POI a week (and any cars I happened upon.) You can craft food, water and ammo (not that I use much ammo) without looting.

My point is that I'm already forced to loot more than I want to, and making the best gear only available from looting will only make that worse.