Caves

Kyoji

Kyoji

Survivor
I watched a video detailing some mods that are available and I was surprised to see an interesting take on content we previously had, which was cave networks. Many alphas ago we would have cave networks that would spawn underground and while there wasn't a lot there the mod in question adds quite a bit more.

Procedural Caves mod adds procedurally generated caves under the map, many of which link up with some more narrow tunnels leading into large caverns. The caves have zombies, loot and even some POIs such as mines, underground horde bases, bunkers and even a fallout style shelter. Now sadly mods tend to get a bit overzealous and add some nonsense such as a dwarven fortress, but the idea is neat and would be a way to add some "depth" to the game.

I don't think it is a critical component, but if a modder can do it I imagine TFP could as well, perhaps as a nice expansion post release. Just thought it was neat as it expanded on caves which we previously had (not POIs, but actual terrain features).
 
Perhaps @Roland could tell us why procedurally generated caves were removed from map generation. I suppose has either to do with the structural stability of the above-ground POIs or performance.
 
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the reason they were removed from what I remember is its the world gen times. it basically doubles the time it takes to gen a world. that is the short answer. If I am thinking of the same mod, what I dont like about procedural caves is it places invisible blocks to keep the caves from collapsing. this causes all kind of issues when trying to build in them
 
Unacceptable world gen load times...yes
Structural Integrity issues...yes
Chunk loading performance problems especially with vehicles....yes

They caused too many problems unfortunately. You'll notice that they were removed right around the time vehicles were added.

Modders can often add things that developers are unwilling to do for the sake of stability.
 
Roland said:
Unacceptable world gen load times...yes
Structural Integrity issues...yes
Chunk loading performance problems especially with vehicles....yes

They caused too many problems unfortunately. You'll notice that they were removed right around the time vehicles were added.

Modders can often add things that developers are unwilling to do for the sake of stability.
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I just wish they they could do it for stability stuff like more zombies spawns
 
Roland said:
Unacceptable world gen load times...yes
Structural Integrity issues...yes
Chunk loading performance problems especially with vehicles....yes

They caused too many problems unfortunately. You'll notice that they were removed right around the time vehicles were added.

Modders can often add things that developers are unwilling to do for the sake of stability.
Click to expand...
Yes, I can see that being the major issue. I am not sure how much it would increase load times with the new world gen tech, but I imagine there would be some with the placement and then making sure there isn't anything that would cause stability issues.

The whole game had those issues, even with POIs that have basements or underground areas. I don't see how a cave system is any more challenging than the underground cave POIs they have added currently.

I genuinely am not sure about the last one. Care to expand on that some more?

I get why they were removed and agree that at the time it was a good idea, but with the tech we have now for the game would we still have the same problems? I can imagine some longer gen load times as it's an extra step in the process, but not sure how much it would add and I get that it isn't a major feature that is worth a whole lot of effort (to which this would likely take).
 
Kyoji said:
I don't see how a cave system is any more challenging than the underground cave POIs they have added currently.
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The old cave systems were dynamic, algorithmically created at world gen. The new cave POIs are handcrafted. The differences are the root of the problems.. POI placement is bound to a box, and each POI looks like the next. The algo cave systems could sprawl large areas, feeling like part of the map, not just a limited box. You couldn't predict how big any divot in the ground actually was, there could always be a massive tunnel system right under your feet.

To get there, the algorithm would happily dig thru any terrain, like ore veins, with their associated gravel. Gravel has little side support, so they would be SI-unstable from the start. They could also twist back into themselves, so even if the basic tunnels were stable, a bad combo of them might not be.

That instability would collapse them upon loading, walking on, or otherwise randomly - might even be a nice event once in a while, a random landslide. If it worked; but collapses back then would basically jam your entire system, for minutes at a time. The current iteration is a lot better with them, and improvements are still being made.

Handcrafted caves are tested for support, they will place stone supports wherever they need them, so the terrain itself is fine. I wouldn't suggest building on top of one though, might get nasty real fast ;)
 
I've messed with The Descent mod and even rigged my POIs to support it. That mod gives you extensive cave systems.

Roland said:
Unacceptable world gen load times...yes
Structural Integrity issues...yes
Chunk loading performance problems especially with vehicles....yes
Click to expand...

Those things are issues with The Descent too. Well, I'd say "longer world gen load times." I mean, if you want the caves, it really doesn't matter if it takes 10x as long.

Another observation, there's not much to do down in the caves. They're slower travel than the surface. The cave POIs are much further away than the surface POIs for questing. It's dark 24x7. Once the cool wears off, you don't really need them unless you're willing to scatter some kind of resource down there or have some reason why underground POIs are more special.

Still, if TFP were to add some procedural cave generation it would be cool, but it wouldn't have to be pervasive or extensive.
 
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