Why does 7dtd still have no end game content?

[theFlu]

We messed up and fell in love with the wrong game, guys.

I do think you're correct; and I kinda wish TFP had the nuts to confirm that.

 

[Rotor]

I do think you're correct; and I kinda wish TFP had the nuts to confirm that.

Let's say it was true, nuts or no nuts it would never happen.

 

[Caelynd Maclyrr]

Overhaul mods are your best chance. Darkness Falls, Rebirth, War3zuk, Afterlife, War of the Walkers, Joke Mod.

Bandits are kinda what TFP thinks endgame should look like, but due to the horrible V2 they now postponed them again to fix the mess and they won´t come in 3.0. Which is good.

I would add the "Project Z" mod to the pile; me and my brother are enjoying it and it has a taste of LBD that works well without being overpowering.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Fair enough. I think I was unintentionally responding to criticism writ large when people say things like "we can never know" as if we cannot infer trends from a multitude of sources (of which we do in real life for chasing trends in marketing).

Amen. An excellent example is that Cyberpunk 2077 was criticized, as are so many other supposed "RPGs", for its distinct lack of choice and consequence despite having been marketed as a heavily choice and consequence RPG. What was it, actually? Filler content for the most part. NCPD "mission" here (and a block or so over) with 3 to 5 guys to waste or incapacitate, question marks and fixer "gigs" along with an on rails main storyline that doesn't deviate in the least. And that's to say nothing of the irony of "cyberpunks" behaving the same way, accepting and doing the exact same things as their "corpo" counterparts, striving for status ("street cred"), power and eddies. Same locations; same "missions". No real reason to pick a "background" considering they'll all be going through the exact same content regardless. Unlike so many others in the industry, though, CD Projekt Red listened to that criticism and filled Phantom Liberty with interesting, complex storylines and characters and choices mattered, at least from what I hear as I haven't bothered to lease it myself. (And, yes, it is leasing now just as with SaaS. We don't own copies of the games or other software we supposedly "buy" anymore.)

Anyone who can't see the trends there must be either blind or have never known any other experience than linear, on rails game design perhaps dazzeld by the flashy visuals and supposed "excitement". Overstimulation is the name of the game, especially in the triple A space. Tim Cain has offered, unwittingly or not, a reason for that: a reluctance on the part of the purse string holders to fund the development of branching questlines that end in vastly different consequences for the game world itself claiming the studio will be "creating content no one will ever see." Most lame excuse for the risk averse behavior of the bean counters I've ever heard. Of course it will be seen depending which routes the player chooses to take all along the way. That's what made for the exceptional replayability of RPGs in the first place.

Now, your "choices" include only things such as which weapons and armor you choose to use, how your character looks and the like in what passes for RPGs today. As long as players are not only willing to put up with that but actually pay extra for pixels, that's a condition that's not likely to change. More and more appear to be revolting against the idea, but the bean counters will be the last to listen because it's not sufficiently affecting profits if at all.

7 Days is not a RPG no matter how much and often Rick says it is. So, it gets a pass in that department. It's just not that kind of game and the more TFP focusses on that difference, the better the game will be for what it is.

 

[Khissi]

I play lots of different games and I have always searched for games that scratch a certain itch for me. Everyone probably does that. I'm retired so I can do that as often as I wish. One thing I don't do is continue to play games I don't enjoy. I've never considered 7 Days to be anything but the most innovative game I've ever found. Its innovation lies in the fact that the player can make the game fit them and their own, personal play style and can be changed pretty much on the fly. I don't want to play the way any other person plays. I want to play the way I want to play. No other game I've ever experienced gives me that freedom.

I'm old, so maybe my perspective is not the same. But, with all the mods available and the developers doing their best to make sure that mods will always be welcome, I absolutely don't care what the base game becomes as long as it's stable and still supports our ability to change it to fit our individual needs. If that means we have fewer 'choices' in the base game, so be it. Mods will fill in the blanks. I'm thinking that's what's intended, or I could be totally wrong. Meanwhile, I get a fairly newish game to play every year, that feels like an old friend. I would have wished it to stay in alpha for forever.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I've never considered 7 Days to be anything but the most innovative game I've ever found. Its innovation lies in the fact that the player can make the game fit them and their own, personal play style and can be changed pretty much on the fly.

Not since 1.0 they can't. And you've mentioned things that prevent that, e.g. the scripted waves of "enemies" designed to overwhelm you whether "playing" ("play style," really?) a stealth character or not, likely an attempt at balancing single and multiplayer play, which I don't think can be "balanced." especially with scripted events.

You look at an online game like Fallout 76 and know "solo" play is quite different than multiplayer play. FO76 has been wrestling with trying to bridge that difference with mixed results since its inception. Your either play it solo and actually get something out of it or you play multiplayer and do nothing but look for ways to game the game, imo, perhaps listening to min-maxers lauding the "best builds" and so forth.

I'd suggest TFP stop trying to do that.

 

[Khissi]

I'd suggest TFP stop trying to do that.

I can't even begin to imagine how you could walk that fine line and still make a viable game both solo and multi-player would find perfect. And, this is why I don't play Fallout 76. I find the solo play to be beyond un-fun and multi-play even worse. Were it to have even a few of the ways to adjust difficulty that 7 Days has, it would be different. That's what I'm trying to get at. Lots changed in 1.0, but a lot of that change came due to complaints from a player base we probably don't see. There's also the matter of revenue. The DLC fiasco should tell you a bit about that (including everything Bethesda puts their paws in).

New players bring money. Old players, not so much, but, TFP still care enough to give us multiple settings, directions in the xml files, information we can use to adjust and tweak the game, and I'm all about that. I miss stealth, and I still use it in early game. But, yeah, the swarms are annoying and I stay out of those POIs until I have the fire power to handle them. New players don't have that knowledge and I read the Steam forums where they're frustrated and annoyed at things these older players WANT! When I get annoyed at the 'railed' gameplay, I have to stop and consider that they're trying to find that distinction or place where a new player can pick up on what and how they should be doing things while the more experienced player doesn't get mad at being directed. I would lose my mind trying to find that spot.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I can't even begin to imagine how you could walk that fine line and still make a viable game both solo and multi-player would find perfect. And, this is why I don't play Fallout 76. I find the solo play to be beyond un-fun and multi-play even worse. Were it to have even a few of the ways to adjust difficulty that 7 Days has, it would be different. That's what I'm trying to get at. Lots changed in 1.0, but a lot of that change came due to complaints from a player base we probably don't see. There's also the matter of revenue. The DLC fiasco should tell you a bit about that (including everything Bethesda puts their paws in).

New players bring money. Old players, not so much, but, TFP still care enough to give us multiple settings, directions in the xml files, information we can use to adjust and tweak the game, and I'm all about that. I miss stealth, and I still use it in early game. But, yeah, the swarms are annoying and I stay out of those POIs until I have the fire power to handle them. New players don't have that knowledge and I read the Steam forums where they're frustrated and annoyed at things these older players WANT! When I get annoyed at the 'railed' gameplay, I have to stop and consider that they're trying to find that distinction or place where a new player can pick up on what and how they should be doing things while the more experienced player doesn't get mad at being directed. I would lose my mind trying to find that spot.

As are TFP, apparently. All I'm saying.

Probably could concern themselves less with what others are doing as to what they are doing.

 

[HammerDano]

I play lots of different games and I have always searched for games that scratch a certain itch for me. Everyone probably does that. I'm retired so I can do that as often as I wish. One thing I don't do is continue to play games I don't enjoy. I've never considered 7 Days to be anything but the most innovative game I've ever found. Its innovation lies in the fact that the player can make the game fit them and their own, personal play style and can be changed pretty much on the fly. I don't want to play the way any other person plays. I want to play the way I want to play. No other game I've ever experienced gives me that freedom.

I'm old, so maybe my perspective is not the same. But, with all the mods available and the developers doing their best to make sure that mods will always be welcome, I absolutely don't care what the base game becomes as long as it's stable and still supports our ability to change it to fit our individual needs. If that means we have fewer 'choices' in the base game, so be it. Mods will fill in the blanks. I'm thinking that's what's intended, or I could be totally wrong. Meanwhile, I get a fairly newish game to play every year, that feels like an old friend. I would have wished it to stay in alpha for forever.

i get what you are saying...from a PC point of view.

I see it slightly differently, but that's because I never understood why PC accepted a couple of new skins, a bunch of new POI's, and a progression rework as "progress" on the game. From my pov, They have been dumbing down your pc game to make it fit on console, it's been years since they have added, by meeting the goals we are still waiting for, but, they seem to understand that they need to leave this game as moddable as possible. You guys will end up with something that can be great.

I am not so glad you are willing to sacrifice what the base game will end up like...because that's all console will get. hope you understand that.

 

[HammerDano]

I can't even begin to imagine how you could walk that fine line and still make a viable game both solo and multi-player would find perfect. And, this is why I don't play Fallout 76. I find the solo play to be beyond un-fun and multi-play even worse. Were it to have even a few of the ways to adjust difficulty that 7 Days has, it would be different. That's what I'm trying to get at. Lots changed in 1.0, but a lot of that change came due to complaints from a player base we probably don't see. There's also the matter of revenue. The DLC fiasco should tell you a bit about that (including everything Bethesda puts their paws in).

New players bring money. Old players, not so much, but, TFP still care enough to give us multiple settings, directions in the xml files, information we can use to adjust and tweak the game, and I'm all about that. I miss stealth, and I still use it in early game. But, yeah, the swarms are annoying and I stay out of those POIs until I have the fire power to handle them. New players don't have that knowledge and I read the Steam forums where they're frustrated and annoyed at things these older players WANT! When I get annoyed at the 'railed' gameplay, I have to stop and consider that they're trying to find that distinction or place where a new player can pick up on what and how they should be doing things while the more experienced player doesn't get mad at being directed. I would lose my mind trying to find that spot.

I don't think it is a problem that can actually be fixed. I am not saying it's a Kobayashi Maru test, but, it kind of is. it is no win. New players have the benefit of not having felt the labour pains, nothing has been taken away from them, they are just experiencing this fresh...I am jelly. older players...well. they do...and PC must be grateful for all the new POI. Content that they have not gamed a hundred times or more. I have never really appreciated that until this moment. I am sorry for that.

 

[HammerDano]

Not since 1.0 they can't. And you've mentioned things that prevent that, e.g. the scripted waves of "enemies" designed to overwhelm you whether "playing" ("play style," really?) a stealth character or not, likely an attempt at balancing single and multiplayer play, which I don't think can be "balanced." especially with scripted events.

You look at an online game like Fallout 76 and know "solo" play is quite different than multiplayer play. FO76 has been wrestling with trying to bridge that difference with mixed results since its inception. Your either play it solo and actually get something out of it or you play multiplayer and do nothing but look for ways to game the game, imo, perhaps listening to min-maxers lauding the "best builds" and so forth.

I'd suggest TFP stop trying to do that.

I agree about fallout...one medium to high level player and everything gets done while the rest stand around...the danger really didn't seem to scale...the tasks were by necessity really solo missions.
But Helldivers II just dropped for xbox a couple weeks ago and, your convo reminded me why some games are so ■■■■ hard, but funner to me, and some, really lack a little something something because it's hard to make a solo game scale for team play. I really love the challenge of helldiving a 4 person mission as a solo. every time I do...because that game is built for team play first...its your problem or challenge if you don't squad up.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I agree about fallout...one medium to high level player and everything gets done while the rest stand around...the danger really didn't seem to scale...the tasks were by necessity really solo missions.
But Helldivers II just dropped for xbox a couple weeks ago and, your convo reminded me why some games are so ■■■■ hard, but funner to me, and some, really lack a little something something because it's hard to make a solo game scale for team play. I really love the challenge of helldiving a 4 person mission as a solo. every time I do...because that game is built for team play first...its your problem or challenge if you don't squad up.

It's the "massively" in MMO I don't think at all condusive to online play. Few enjoy playing with randos these days for obvious reasons. You're consistently surrounded by strangers likely to remain strangers due to all the griefing and trolling going on unless you already know who you're playing with in real life. A four-person squad or team is, I think, ideal for online play, but the "meta" boys have different ideas in mind. They should really listen to John Carmack on the subject, imo.

 

[Jost Amman]

After so many Alphas and almost 2 years after its official release we still have no end game content and much less In the ways of actual plans of what end game content looks like.

No them adding Pois that are bigger with the same zombies that can spawn in other PoIs anr lower difficulty PoIs isn't end game content thats just a new building to explore which can be done early game.

Where are the PoI specific zombies that would make those locations tougher? Why haven't we gotten a boss type zombie?

It just seems early game and to some extent mid game has been getting extend or progress slowed down to make us stay in those portions of the game for much longer periods of time with no focus or work being put into end game content.

It really is rather ridiculous that we have almost nothing for end game content and have had to rely on mods for that kind of content for years.

So, for you, endgame means boss-type zombies, right?

Also, may I observe that end-game, by definition, doesn't fit well with a lite-sandbox type of game like 7D2D. That's why you can only expect whatever "end game" content you're looking for AFTER they add a story which can actually, well, sort of end the game!

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Jost Amman You read "end game" to literally. What this game needs is something challenging in late game when T6 quests are a walk in the park. That´s what most people mean when they say we need endgame content. Also because many end their play trough once they are overpowered af.

There needs to be something that can match the player. We can get level 300 and we can be OP af before level 100.

 

[meganoth]

@Jost Amman You read "end game" to literally. What this game needs is something challenging in late game when T6 quests are a walk in the park. That´s what most people mean when they say we need endgame content. Also because many end their play trough once they are overpowered af.

There needs to be something that can match the player. We can get level 300 and we can be OP af before level 100.

TFP (about A18 time): "Our goal is for the game to last about 60 hours, then you should have reached a state where you are OP"
Players: "Ok, but perks go up to about 300 points, what if I want to have every perk at max?"
TFP: "Ok, so we won't stop leveling, you'll get a HP and perk point up to 300."
Players (shortly after that): "Oh, but we want to have those ~240 levels filled with 'end game' content now."

There are two goals here and they conflict. TFP seems to have a design goal that the player reaches a point where he is OP in everything he does, that is when he "solved" the game. At the same time they want to let the player continue but that would work much better if he is not OP at the end of the offical game.

One "cheap" solution that might work (if they don't change their goals) would be green or pink variations of existing zombies just with more HPs or more damage or faster (or stronger bandits) who should be locked out of appearing before the player is at 80 or 100 hours in the game. But we know players don't like zombie copies with just more HP so this will only make a few happy and frustrate others.

I doubt they can afford to fill days above 100 with content that would really satisfy players like the OP, unless they make a DLC/expansion out of it. The solution for PC players at the moment are mods, sorry to say that.

 

[Jost Amman]

@Jost Amman You read "end game" to literally. What this game needs is something challenging in late game when T6 quests are a walk in the park. That´s what most people mean when they say we need endgame content. Also because many end their play trough once they are overpowered af.

There needs to be something that can match the player. We can get level 300 and we can be OP af before level 100.

So, as OP said, you mean boss-type zombies?
Would that be end-game enough for you?

 

[Mister Forgash]

I mean.. if they have time, I'd love a big, thicc boss type zombie they can drop 1-3 in the loot room group of T6 infested to really put a '!!!' to cap off the experience, but I feel TFP have been pretty good to us as far as giving us variation.. That said, when legendary gear is added, I hope it comes with some kind of new zombie/power variant with which for us to try out the new fire power...

As far as the player getting more and more OP as the game goes on, maybe that could[Should?] be helped by changing the XP formula to require significantly more effort past level 60-100 or after some point, just 1 perk every 2 levels.

Everyone's idea of a rewarding endgame is different. After I've blown up enough zombies that it all stops mattering, I like to make sure I have a good outpost in every biome, A main base outfitted with as much comfort from before the apocalypse as I can manage, and a functioning hoardbase in the wasteland.

.. And if I'm gaming with friends, A gyrocopter obstacle course.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth So they designed the level cap in a way that we can get OP at not even a third of the level cap and then wondered when players want more challenge? Who would have thought.

@Jost Amman I wouldn´t mind bosses but stronger types of zombies like meganoth said would also work. Or a mix of both. And i hope that bandits will provide a challenge in late game.

What also could work is enemies scaling with the player level. Like Borderlands does it.

There is options to make this work without a lot of work.

 

[Jost Amman]

@Jost Amman I wouldn´t mind bosses but stronger types of zombies like meganoth said would also work. Or a mix of both. And i hope that bandits will provide a challenge in late game.

What also could work is enemies scaling with the player level. Like Borderlands does it.

There is options to make this work without a lot of work.

Well, then you missed the latest release because, as far as I know, burning/electric and radiation zombies that are always feral sound a lot like what you ask. Do they count or not?

Enemies scaling with the player are a very different can of worms. The very reason why you perk up and skill up and get better weapons and armor is because you want to feel more secure while exploring the world. If all your work is constantly nullified by an auto-level-up game mechanics, then a lot of people (including me) would feel frustrated.

I think bosses and zombies with "special behaviors" are the best option.

For example: add a zombie which has a shield; when he raises the shield it becomes immune to your bullets; when it lowers the shield it charges you but you can hurt it; stuff like that, not only more HP and more speed; that kind of tactical variety would be cool in my opinion.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Honestly i am fine with everything that adds additional challenge late game.