Why DONT you want jars

Shortly - i dont want jars in game because i am lazy to just drop them if i dont need them comments be like
Playing alpha 16.4 alpha and dont have problem with them at all
 
Roland said:
I'm for letting people gather water from streams and lakes. If they did that they could also remove all murky water from loot which would be very pleasing. Whether its a canteen, or a bucket, or you just get jars of murky water whenever you press E empty handed...I don't much care at this point. I think the game is better without empty jars in loot and it would be better still without murky water in loot.
Click to expand...

I agree mostly but not entirely. One of the things about this game that screams "it's the apocalypse and everything is terrible" is surviving off of toiler water. So I'm fine with murky water being removed from nearly every other loot table, but they gotta keep toilet water. It's just too gross to get rid of.
 
Riamus said:
The problem with that is it makes it even worse for those of us who don't want to deal with jars. At least when it was 125, I could loot everything and ignore that I got empty jars and they'd only take one slot until I hit 125. With only 15, I'd be using multiple slots very quickly in a POI, especially a tier 5 POI. Since I don't normally spend time looking at what I loot and just hit loot all for each container, I'd quickly end up with a bunch of slots filled with jars that I'd then have to drop in order to pick up other things when I got full. That's what I don't want to have to do again and one reason why I don't support adding empty jars back.

Unless you can't loot empty jars. If you want to say that you can't loot jars, then feel free to have them be a small stack size.

Even so, unless they make it so you have to fill each jar one at a time with a 2 second or so timer so that it's just a royal pain to do (but is immersive and realistic!!), then empty jars will always end up being extremely easy no matter how you set them up unless you limit the total number you can carry to only a few total - perhaps having a "canteen" slot that is the only way to carry a reusable water container (jar or canteen or bottle or whatever).
Click to expand...
I think inventory management is important in a survival game and adding an extra slot for jars wouldn't be much of an issue. Unless they turned down water found while looting you will just be throwing them away - like cornmeal. Or they could just add another row for your backpack or perhaps an upgraded backpack you can find which would make clothing stores and camping stores more valuable.

But I agree that a simple stack size limit doesn't really fix the issue of water scarcity.

I know people don't like to hear it but the only way to make it balanced without destroying another system is to make them consume on use like every other container IMO.
 
If the game is going to make me deal with glass jars then I want it to also make me CARE about glass jars. Late game, as I'm converting the last of my weapons to tier 3 quality 6, I better still be excited to get a jar in loot... because I'm still having trouble keeping my thirst meter full, and still struggling to make repair kits for lack of duct tape. And when I drink and get an empty jar, that jar had better be the most valuable crafting ingredient in my inventory.

If they add in glass jars and on day 10 finding glass jars is less exciting than finding corn meal, then all TFP will have done is add more stupid clutter that makes nothing better. At that point they'd be much better off just making water trivial. Interacting with a stream should just give you a stack of murky water... which would make the game worse, but still be a better change than just bringing back glass jars.

So yeah, I'm against glass jars because I'm against middle of the road add-nothing features. Removing glass jars the way they did was not the "best" design choice they could have made at the time, but it was still an improvement.
 
Kalen said:
That's not why they were removed. They were removed because they trivialized water.

Joel said this:
Click to expand...

Why not both?

That Joel quote feels more like after the fact justification, or maybe something pulled from the recent TFP Jars Reddit post. We all knew water was too easy, but it’s also clear it was never rebalanced to be a harder survival mechanic once Jars were removed and the Dew Collector came in.

In the latest dev stream, they mentioned not wanting biome-specific armor mods because it would be a hassle for players to constantly swap them. That shows they’re prioritizing in-game logic and playability, while putting immersion on the back burner.

IIRC, in an earlier dev stream they also said Jars, being the last container left, broke their internal game logic.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter much beyond giving context to some of the decisions they’ve made.
 
Just my 2 cents about water mechanics:

Change Dew collectors to only collect dew during night time.

Change dew collectors to fully fill up during a rainstorm.

I'm pretty indifferent on bringing back glass jars or not but if they did, I'd make them work as follows:

Allow crafting empty glass jars but gate them behind having crucible (some one elses idea earlier in this post) but dont introduce other ingredients into the recipe.

Allow finding empty glass jars in loot.

keep stack size of empty glass jars at 10 just like murky and clean water.

When you use a glass jar filled with murky or clean water or a drink its gone, just like the food items no longer leaving empty cans.
 
Wheesel said:
Change Dew collectors to only collect dew during night time.

Change dew collectors to fully fill up during a rainstorm.
Click to expand...
Go a couple steps further:

Dew collectors don't work in the Burnt Forest and Snow biomes.

Dew collectors collect irradiated water in the wasteland, with an alternate recipe to use it to make glue but can not be used in cooking.

Easy peazy quick and sleazy.
 
Look, is it realistic without them? No. Would the game's survival mechanic be improved with them back? Also No.

Nearly every other survival game I've played does not allow the player to collect endless amounts of water containers to be filled at will. They limit their ability to carry anything more than a small amount and make collection and purification a process. Are dew collectors the answer? No, not from a survival aspect.

I would hate having glass jars back in the game. Give the player the ability to make varying qualities of canteens to carry on them (1 can be carried at a time). Have containers at your base to store larger amounts of water (dew collectors could be repurposed for this). Add more steps to the purification process that can be enhanced and improved as you progress in the game.

(these are just spit-balled ideas. I'm sure there can be other implementations that accomplish the same thing)
 
Sapient6 said:
Go a couple steps further:

Dew collectors don't work in the Burnt Forest and Snow biomes.

Dew collectors collect irradiated water in the wasteland, with an alternate recipe to use it to make glue but can not be used in cooking.

Easy peazy quick and sleazy.
Click to expand...
Only issue is that now you can't reasonably live in those biomes. Perhaps cooking takes longer in snow and water collection is slower in desert and burnt forest. I don't think any of this is necessary but it would be neat to see at least some complexity return to the game.
Syphon583 said:
Look, is it realistic without them? No. Would the game's survival mechanic be improved with them back? Also No.
Click to expand...
I agree that even with the return of jars it won't fix water survival. Furthermore, changes you would make to fix survival water focus could also be done with dew collectors.
 
Riamus said:
So, it is far faster. It's also far cheaper. Your argument was that you thought jars were better because of the time spent gathering and boiling the water (see quote below). But you agree that that is not the case. It's faster, so that time spent is less. Yes, there is a jar limitation, but you can keep refilling them, so that's not much of a limitation. And you can compare that limitation to the number of dew collectors you make.
Click to expand...
This is out of context.

I stated that other items that use implied containers (for lack of a better term) such as gas and oil, automatically give you the containers when you collect them. When you wrench a car you get containers of gas and oil, even though we can all be sure, that there weren't containers of gas and oil actually in the car. The game simplifies it by just giving you those resources in containers.

I then said if you were going to make water work the same way, then you would be able to collect jars of murky water directly from open water. Walk down to a lake, right click on the lake and pick up a jar of murky water.

EvilPolygons replied to that saying
Anyway, drawing water from natural sources isn't a "worse" solution. It's how I have my game modded and it's the *best* solution. Because it takes time to gather water bucket-by-bucket and boil it. The work it takes and time it takes is the mechanism that balances it. And you don't need jars for that at all.
Click to expand...

I was commenting that directly getting jars from lakes was a worse situation because you could infinitely get water. Empty jars, while reusable, at least provide a limit to how much you can get.

He also commented on the time it took to collect and boil the water, to which I also pointed out that you had to collect and boil jars as well.
 
Kalen said:
I was commenting that directly getting jars from lakes was a worse situation because you could infinitely get water. Empty jars, while reusable, at least provide a limit to how much you can get.
Click to expand...

Which had nothing to do with my original comment. You were just shifting the goalpost around for the sake of your own argument, because I never suggested that we should get "jars" directly from lakes. When you collect water with a bucket, the bucket fills with the equivalent of 3 units of murky water. You can't remove "jars" from the bucket -- the murky water either stays in the bucket or you dump it out on the ground. When you boil a bucket's worth of murky water on a campfire, it goes directly into the cooking pot.

The entire point of the bucket mod is to simulate how people *actually* gather water. Which is far better than this ridiculous notion that anyone is going to hike down to a nearby river with 300 empty glass jars instead of a freaking bucket or pail.

Nearly ANYTHING is more immersive than glass jars, because glass jars are completely unrealistic and utterly ABSURD. Old plastic milk jugs would be more immersive, because at least people really actually use those to collect water.
 
EvilPolygons said:
Which had nothing to do with my original comment. You were just shifting the goalpost around for the sake of your own argument, because I never suggested that we should get "jars" directly from lakes.
Click to expand...
How am I shifting the goal posts, I made a statement about how one could accomplish the task of gaining water from a water source without using jars.... and added why I thought that was a worse idea than my original stance of just adding jars back.

You chose to comment on that post and mention some mod that I've never tried or even heard of.

Then my comment got taken out of context and I had to explain its origin.
 
Jars were removed for a reason. That reason being water was too easy to obtain. Even with their removal water remains too easy to obtain.
From my personal experience i don't even need to craft a dew collector until i am completing t5 quests in the wasteland.
That means that on insane, with 75% loot, water is a non issue until endgame bulk crafting requirements kick in. If i was not using rockets that need two tape each i would not need even a single dew collector.
In this survival game where you need to survive the 5 main threats Food, Water, Exposure, Hostiles and Medicine
-Exposure was removed
-Medicine can be commonly found at the end of every single poi
-Thirst is handed to you/bought in bulk everywhere only needing to boil it
-Food is handed to you/bought as well in bulk everywhere with no need to craft or cook
That means only the zombies remain an actual threat to the players survival, can it even be called a survival game these days?

Adding jars back as they were would have nearly the same effect as removing the thirst aspect of survival entirely.
While there are people who struggle to obtain enough water, that is not a game issue. Its a skill issue.
 
Kalen said:
How am I shifting the goal posts, I made a statement about how one could accomplish the task of gaining water from a water source without using jars.... and added why I thought that was a worse idea than my original stance of just adding jars back.

You chose to comment on that post and mention some mod that I've never tried or even heard of.

Then my comment got taken out of context and I had to explain its origin.
Click to expand...

Your comment didn't get taken out of context. The context here is that your original stance of adding jars back is simply... absurd.

Because the notion of anyone collecting hundreds of jars full of water instead of using more appropriate containers... is absurd.

The notion that the most efficient way to collect water is a glass jar? Absurd.

Claiming that glass jars are somehow more "immersive?" Absurd.

True immersion requires suspension of disbelief. It requires *some* grounding in reality, even if it's not total realism.

The only time you see anyone putting river water into a glass jar is when it's an environmental scientist taking water samples.

This is how actual human beings collect actual water from actual rivers:


(Google image search results from "collecting water from a river")
 
FenixMatariki said:
Adding jars back as they were would have nearly the same effect as removing the thirst aspect of survival entirely.
While there are people who struggle to obtain enough water, that is not a game issue. Its a skill issue.
Click to expand...
Agree completely, I just come to the opposite conclusion (I'm kinda assuming you don't want them back, but that's more in the tone than explicitly stated).. having the more realistic system of the two mechanically pointless ones is better. Not by much, but better :)
 
EvilPolygons said:
Your comment didn't get taken out of context. The context here is that your original stance of adding jars back is simply... absurd.

Because the notion of anyone collecting hundreds of jars full of water instead of using more appropriate containers... is absurd.

The notion that the most efficient way to collect water is a glass jar? Absurd.

Claiming that glass jars are somehow more "immersive?" Absurd.

True immersion requires suspension of disbelief. It requires *some* grounding in reality, even if it's not total realism.

The only time you see anyone putting river water into a glass jar is when it's an environmental scientist taking water samples.

This is how actual human beings collect actual water from actual rivers:


(Google image search results from "collecting water from a river")
Click to expand...
I can see that you're not even really reading my comments, or if you are, you're not understanding them.... I've said several times before, its not about jars, its about having the ability to collect water that I can see lying around in the world. That is the immersive part, being thirsty, needing water, seeing water, and being able to do nothing about it (other than drinking dirty water directly from it).

Clearly, you are getting worked up about this, so for your sanity, I will stop trying to explain myself to you.
 
theFlu said:
Agree completely, I just come to the opposite conclusion (I'm kinda assuming you don't want them back, but that's more in the tone than explicitly stated).. having the more realistic system of the two mechanically pointless ones is better. Not by much, but better :)
Click to expand...
I don't argue that filling a jar from a river and boiling it is more realistic, it does make sense. Its how we used to have it, and was a working system.
I argue that the Jar systems removal makes for healthier game play and a healthier state of game. If both systems are mechanically pointless, at least without jars i dont have to throw them out of my inventory constantly.

For me its the same with clothing, having to constantly take off and put on clothes. The system made sense, weather does change, it was realistic. But it was an un-needed source of micro management. Both Jars and Clothings removal were to me at least, well intentioned step's to making the game better. However their replacements and the systems supporting them, Dew collectors and Storms, still need a lot of work.
 
Kalen said:
I can see that you're not even really reading my comments, or if you are, you're not understanding them.... I've said several times before, its not about jars, its about having the ability to collect water that I can see lying around in the world. That is the immersive part, being thirsty, needing water, seeing water, and being able to do nothing about it (other than drinking dirty water directly from it).

Clearly, you are getting worked up about this, so for your sanity, I will stop trying to explain myself to
Click to expand...

You've also said, and I'm directly quoting you here, "I just like jars better." So once again, you're shifting the goalpost. If all you desire is to be able to draw water realistically from water sources, then you shouldn't care one iota about jars. The fact that you "just like jars better" means that you don't actually care about how absurd they are -- you just want them back, regardless. If it really wasn't about the jars, then your post history would look quite a bit different.

You have every right to like whatever game mechanics you want, regardless. But trying to justify a position by throwing arguments about "immersion" or "game balance" around is totally disingenuous when the subject of the discussion is simply absurd to begin with.

There is no logical reason for anyone to choose to carry hundreds of glass jars around instead of a couple of buckets or a big plastic jug. Or even a camelback water pack or just a big ol' waterproof canvas bag. Glass jars are just freakin' dumb any way you slice it.
 
Riamus said:
It is just an educated guess that fewer than half of all players (likely less than 10%) want jars. If I were to make a guess, I would say about 85% don't care either way (and potentially up to 95%). And the remainder is split between those who don't want them and those who do. I could be wrong, but I think it is a good guess. Almost all players who started playing the game in the past few years (after jars were removed) probably don't even think about jars. For players who have experienced jars in this game, I am certain that most don't care how they get water as long as y
Click to expand...

99% of Internet statistics are made up on the spot.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top