PC V2.0 Storms Brewing Dev Diary

[LittleNightma]

But they should have told the masses that rather then the few on the forums

I agree to a certain extent. The forums have always been the place to be in order to get some insight about the future of the game and what is currently being worked (usually from faatal) so it would have to apply to everything he, and any other dev, has ever posted which is a bit much I think. Plus it was mentioned in the discord by Jugg which is how I found out.

 

[Javabean867]

I never claimed 7DTD was a hardcore survival game. You set up a whole strawman just so that you could knock it down. Good job, I guess.

I never said you did. Way to miss the point I guess...good job???

Here let me steelman your possition. You want the survival elements that exist in the game to be more defined and harder to concour. Right? To do so you want some elements lime jars back because you feel that it adds a level of immersion and realism to the game.

How'd i do? Was i close? That is the possition I think you have, and the possition I've been replying to. If im wrong, that's fine. If I wasn't close then I'll accept your accusation of strawmanning your position.

Post automatically merged: Monday at 4:39 PM

I'm calm, I don't think TFP is destroying survival because they don't care, I know they're developing things for future versions, it's just that not knowing why sometimes makes you question things, and although they've made progress in other areas, the survival elements feel abandoned, for people who don't follow the forum or the news, it's as if they've been forgotten.

Sorry, didn't mean to make you think I thought you weren't calm. I hear what you are saying. And I understand your position.

Like I've pointed out(was it to you???) previously,TFPs like every other developer, keeps information close to the chest.

It's better to not make assumptions than it is to spouse aspersions

 

[EvilPolygons]

I never said you did. Way to miss the point I guess...good job???

Here let me steelman your possition. You want the survival elements that exist in the game to be more defined and harder to concour. Right? To do so you want some elements lime jars back because you feel that it adds a level of immersion and realism to the game.

How'd i do? Was i close? That is the possition I think you have, and the possition I've been replying to. If im wrong, that's fine. If I wasn't close then I'll accept your accusation of strawmanning your position.

Post automatically merged: Monday at 4:39 PM

Nope. Way off. I hated glass jars. They were never necessary for water gathering in an immersive sense or a mechanical sense. Nearly everything about the glass jar mechanic was absurd because water can be carried around in nearly any kind of container. In fact, a glass jar would be about the LAST kind of container you'd want to use because glass is super fragile. You'd be better off carrying it in a plastic bag. Or, more sensibly, a canteen.

 

[Space4Ace]

But they should have told the masses that rather then the few on the forums

But then TFP mentioned it at the 2.0 Town Hall so all is good... Moving on!

 

[Noxom]

To be fair, you kind of gave that impression about yourself when you rejected most of the games listed as being actual survival games and ridiculed Palworld as even being on the list. It’s exactly what a hardcore survival game fan would do.

I think 7 Days is probably closer to Palworld level of survival elements than it is to say Green Hell. I think the vanilla version should be on the lighter side with options to ramp up the survival difficulty and (for PC players) mods to go even closer to the simulation end of the spectrum.

I used the tag "Survival" to filter my games and posted what examples i could. Survival is a broader spectrum than it really should be, but that's how it is. I like survival, but not to point where i'm willing to play stuff like Green Hell or The Long Dark.

My argument was never about "realism bad" it's the fact that 7DTD was never a realistic game and never will be unless you significantly mod it. I've played over a thousand hours of Zomboid, so it's not like i think realism is bad in any shape or form. I see a lot of intellectual dishonesty when it comes to this games direction, and i mostly blame early access and ignorance around it. People playing a game in development, defining its vibes and direction before all the pieces are built and put in place. Some of them even glorify the older mechanics, yet they can't give any real data if you ask. Btw Polygon, immersion is entirely subjective. What might hampen one persons immersion could help anothers immersion. It's a silly thing to argue about. How do you objectively measure immersion?

 

[Roland]

My argument was never about "realism bad" it's the fact that 7DTD was never a realistic game and never will be unless you significantly mod it. I've played over a thousand hours of Zomboid, so it's not like i think realism is bad in any shape or form.

I would go one step further and say that 7 Days should not even try to be a FPS version of Project Zomboid. 7 Days is a hybrid game so it is light on survival, light on RPG, light on sandbox, light on farming, light on tower defense, but heavy on modding. Fans of those separate genres are going to see something lacking about whatever particular pet genre they wish 7 Days would better represent.

But that adds a bunch of scope to the development—scope that can better be handled by modders who can go wild adding more depth and complexity to their favorite aspect of the game that they feel is too shallow.

If TFP can improve thirst mechanics by adding a gathering mechanic that the majority of players accept as good enough then great. There will still be complaint posts by whatever new faction ends up not liking the change but at least we will see some name changes above each critical post which will add a bit of variety.

 

[EvilPolygons]

I used the tag "Survival" to filter my games and posted what examples i could. Survival is a broader spectrum than it really should be, but that's how it is. I like survival, but not to point where i'm willing to play stuff like Green Hell or The Long Dark.

My argument was never about "realism bad" it's the fact that 7DTD was never a realistic game and never will be unless you significantly mod it. I've played over a thousand hours of Zomboid, so it's not like i think realism is bad in any shape or form. I see a lot of intellectual dishonesty when it comes to this games direction, and i mostly blame early access and ignorance around it. People playing a game in development, defining its vibes and direction before all the pieces are built and put in place. Some of them even glorify the older mechanics, yet they can't give any real data if you ask. Btw Polygon, immersion is entirely subjective. What might hampen one persons immersion could help anothers immersion. It's a silly thing to argue about. How do you objectively measure immersion?

I've got 90 mods installed at the moment, so yeah...I'd say I have it significantly modded. Nearly all are survival- and difficulty-related. Again, I wasn't asking for hardcore difficulty or survival to be added to vanilla -- because I don't play vanilla in the first place! I was complaining that the devs dropped the ball on their OWN attempt to add more difficulty to water-related stuff in the early game; dew collectors did NOT make it any harder to find water. All they did was remove an aspect of environmental interaction in the game that made a LOT of people upset -- casual and hardcore alike.

I suspect many people chanting "bring back jars" don't really miss the jars as much as they miss the ability to dunk some kind of container in a lake and scoop up some water. Because that's what people A) expect and B) were previously able to do. I really believe the fixation on jars is just misplaced anger over interactivity and immersion being stomped on.

By the way, you can't rely on Steam tags too heavily. Those are user-generated. I once saw a Civ-clone with a roguelike tag. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen the roguelike tag misused, I'd own every game on Steam twice over.

 

[Jugom]

I just had a what may be an odd thought. Ok thinking in a heirarchy format.

1__Navezgane is a static prebuilt world.

2__During the town hall meeting Rick said TFP may be working on a flat spot mechanic.
It is actually pretty similar to the way the POIs were placed before tiles were introduced,
they were called lots, which was a precursor to the manual tiles of newer versions, just that
they could vary in size.

3__That means that Nav's POI locations are acceptable flatspot candidates.

4__If that technology is made to work, since there are lines in the poi that dictate the 3d locations
to render the prefabs.

EXAMPLE: church_01
<property name="YOffset" value="-23" />
<property name="PrefabSize" value="60, 68, 60" />

5__Can a single tag be added to the pois, that would allow Navezgane to place poi In varied locations.

This could allow Navezgane terrain map to remain intact but each time played it could have pois rendered
in different locations.

Why I am asking about it is because, console is regulated to smaller maps at the moment. But being that small
it becomes a repetitive form of play. If they could be randomized by using a tag and flatspot in combination,
then all pois including traders could be moved around the map just like when you use a seed in RWG, that would
allow sharing, and randomization in that map. From a modding view point a single terrain could be rendered,
placed in the worlds folder, and using a seeded flatspot create a nearly infinite set of combinations, from
a favored terrain layout. There use to be an inclusion in RWG that was a type of overide, that allowed that
very thing in a Prior alpha. It was based on a .PNG that converted to a .Raw that in turn could layout POIs.

I was just thinking about a potential possibility for the tech if it were used.

Doesn't this defeat the purpose of navezgane being a hand crafted map?
Every POI is there for a reason. They tell stories based on where they are.

What you're describing sounds like RWG, but worse. Or at least that's what I understood of it after reading it.

 

[Riamus]

You have, actually. I remember a post a couple of months ago where you insinuated that hardcore survival fans are basically jobless weirdos who live in their parents' basements.

Considering that isn't even remotely close to anything I'd ever say, I would want to see a quote of what I said. You may be paraphrasing something I said REALLY badly, but that isn't something I'd say in anywhere close to those words. You may be thinking of someone else.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Considering that isn't even remotely close to anything I'd ever say, I would want to see a quote of what I said. You may be paraphrasing something I said REALLY badly, but that isn't something I'd say in anywhere close to those words. You may be thinking of someone else.

Post in thread 'You've Stripped the Soul Out of 7 Days to Die'

Jun 25, 2025

I'd kind of like to see the niches make a comeback myself because the old truism applies: "Try to please everyone and you'll end up pleasing no one."

Heh... and yet, TFP isn't trying to please everyone. That's why people are upset. They want it their way and TFP keeps saying no. Just because they have a certain plan for the game and it differs from what you want doesn't mean they are trying to please everyone. It just means they aren't trying to please you.

Also, purist survival games (or hardcore survival games if you prefer) still are niche. Only a small percentage of...

• Riamus

• 
• 
• 

Post in thread 'You've Stripped the Soul Out of 7 Days to Die'

Jun 25, 2025

And most gamers these days are adults with jobs who can't sit around for hours just to handle some simulated survival mechanic that requires a lot of extra work to do so that it's more realistic and challenging.

It's funny you say that, because the vast majority of sim geeks I've met -- and the ones you'll find on various message boards -- tend to be older professionals, generally in their 50's and 60's. Especially the flight sim and sub sim guys. It's rare to find younger people who are interested in hardcore sims because they are generally slow, "tedious." and don't...

• EvilPolygons

• 

Post in thread 'You've Stripped the Soul Out of 7 Days to Die'

Jun 25, 2025

It's funny you say that, because the vast majority of sim geeks I've met -- and the ones you'll find on various message boards -- tend to be older professionals, generally in their 50's and 60's. Especially the flight sim and sub sim guys. It's rare to find younger people who are interested in hardcore sims because they are generally slow, "tedious." and don't offer much instant gratification.

The thing about getting older and doing well for yourself is that you have the luxury of spending your free time as you please.

Sims are a different thing. We were talking about...

• Riamus

Post in thread 'You've Stripped the Soul Out of 7 Days to Die'

Jun 25, 2025

Sims are a different thing. We were talking about hardcore survival. There's a difference. For a lot of people who love sims and love planes, spending a lot of time flipping switches in a plane sim (something I don't enjoy personally even thought I like sims) is fun because flying a plane or learning to fly one is something they are interested in. Take someone else who likes playing sims but doesn't have an interest in planes and sit them in front of a plane sim and they aren't going to appreciate it. Many others who love sims prefer sims that don't require a great deal of time...

• EvilPolygons

• 

There's the conversation chain, if you're interested. I still have the cookie.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

Doesn't this defeat the purpose of navezgane being a hand crafted map?
Every POI is there for a reason. They tell stories based on where they are.

What you're describing sounds like RWG, but worse. Or at least that's what I understood of it after reading it.

Yes, and no. From my understanding Nav map is centered around a story, but and it has been repeated
over and over "Well if I try it I will only do it once, and so on and so on". The pois are specifically placed
and assigned to Nav not just by hand but also a NavOnly tag in poi xml, unless that has changed.

But the terrain is static, the poi PrefabSize, and YOffset are also static, so in an example of a story, you go to
poi complete task or quest, progress, repeat, until complete. There is a finite amount of lot sizes. so when
rendering it is possible to switch one poi placement with another. So you would have the same story, but
not the same movement or directional path. Neighbor hoods would look different, quest locations my be
in different biome, etc. But it would still stay true to the original design, of a 4k ish static map. With familiar
pois. When Rick spoke of a flatspot mechanic and possibly having events tied to it, it made me think of Nav
as mutate able story location. There was a similar technique in rwg before.

<terrain_generator name="vanilla2" base_height="32" water_level="38">
<module name="HM" type="NoiseFromImage">
<property name="metersPerPixel" value="15.14"/>
<property name="imageFile" value="sarek.png"/>
</module>
<module name="BIAS" type="BiasOutput">
<property name="sourceModule" value="HM"/>
<property name="bias" value="-30"/>
</module>
<output module="BIAS"/>
</terrain_generator>
The flatspot seems to have the same potential. That is why I asked about it.

 

[Jost Amman]

Paint all water in the map green and tell them it's contaminated.
Boom! Realism is back, but they still can't use it, just like now.
Keep the rest.

When I posted that I didn't know that @khzmusik already created a mod with a similar idea in mind!
You can find it over here.

 

[Riamus]

Post in thread 'You've Stripped the Soul Out of 7 Days to Die'

Jun 25, 2025

I'd kind of like to see the niches make a comeback myself because the old truism applies: "Try to please everyone and you'll end up pleasing no one."

Heh... and yet, TFP isn't trying to please everyone. That's why people are upset. They want it their way and TFP keeps saying no. Just because they have a certain plan for the game and it differs from what you want doesn't mean they are trying to please everyone. It just means they aren't trying to please you.

Also, purist survival games (or hardcore survival games if you prefer) still are niche. Only a small percentage of...

• Riamus

• 
• 
• 

Post in thread 'You've Stripped the Soul Out of 7 Days to Die'

Jun 25, 2025

And most gamers these days are adults with jobs who can't sit around for hours just to handle some simulated survival mechanic that requires a lot of extra work to do so that it's more realistic and challenging.

It's funny you say that, because the vast majority of sim geeks I've met -- and the ones you'll find on various message boards -- tend to be older professionals, generally in their 50's and 60's. Especially the flight sim and sub sim guys. It's rare to find younger people who are interested in hardcore sims because they are generally slow, "tedious." and don't...

• EvilPolygons

• 

Post in thread 'You've Stripped the Soul Out of 7 Days to Die'

Jun 25, 2025

It's funny you say that, because the vast majority of sim geeks I've met -- and the ones you'll find on various message boards -- tend to be older professionals, generally in their 50's and 60's. Especially the flight sim and sub sim guys. It's rare to find younger people who are interested in hardcore sims because they are generally slow, "tedious." and don't offer much instant gratification.

The thing about getting older and doing well for yourself is that you have the luxury of spending your free time as you please.

Sims are a different thing. We were talking about...

• Riamus

Post in thread 'You've Stripped the Soul Out of 7 Days to Die'

Jun 25, 2025

Sims are a different thing. We were talking about hardcore survival. There's a difference. For a lot of people who love sims and love planes, spending a lot of time flipping switches in a plane sim (something I don't enjoy personally even thought I like sims) is fun because flying a plane or learning to fly one is something they are interested in. Take someone else who likes playing sims but doesn't have an interest in planes and sit them in front of a plane sim and they aren't going to appreciate it. Many others who love sims prefer sims that don't require a great deal of time...

• EvilPolygons

• 

There's the conversation chain, if you're interested. I still have the cookie.

You're really trying to twist words, aren't you? In all of those, I said that most gamers don't want to spend time grinding things. I said that pure survival games are a niche genre. I said that a lot of players these days are adults with jobs who don't have time to spend grinding for hours. That's hardly the same thing that you said I had said. If you want to start twisting words around, then I think the conversation is over.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

I said that most gamers don't want to spend time grinding things.

There you go... "inflating numbers" without any supporting data.
Millions of players appreciate grinding, what you truly mean is that "I" do not enjoy grinding, but that does not represent "most" players.
The fundamental issue is that individuals often overlook that 7 Days to Die (7d2d) is primarily a survival game rather than a first-person shooter or an arena-style game.
7d2d was developed long before many of those other games were released or even conceived.
In the past grinding was the standard in every MMORPG, so it is possible that you are too young to recall any of that but it is certainly true that 7d2d is fundamentally a survival game.

 

[LittleNightma]

I like to grind in games. I don't know why, I just do. It's relaxing to me, oddly enough.

 

[Riamus]

There you go... "inflating numbers" without any supporting data.
Millions of players appreciate grinding, what you truly mean is that "I" do not enjoy grinding, but that does not represent "most" players.
The fundamental issue is that individuals often overlook that 7 Days to Die (7d2d) is primarily a survival game rather than a first-person shooter or an arena-style game.
7d2d was developed long before many of those other games were released or even conceived.
In the past grinding was the standard in every MMORPG, so it is possible that you are too young to recall any of that but it is certainly true that 7d2d is fundamentally a survival game.

Most means more than half. No, I don't have numbers and so did not give any. If I were to actually guess, I would say that more that 75% don't enjoy grinding. But I left it at most (i.e. more than 50%). That is an educated guess. From all the posts I have read here and on many other forums and locations, I see a lot of people complaining about grinding. Definitely "most".

Now this is from what I have seen and doesn't include data from all players. However, I feel it is safe to say that most do not enjoy grinding. They might do it, but they don't actually like doing it. Some do, yes. But I am confident that most do not. Even in MMOs, people grind because it is needed, but how many like doing it? How many wouldn't prefer another option to get the various rewards that didn't require grinding? Have you seen more people who say they like grinding or more who complain about it?

So no. That isn't inflating numbers. It is an educated guess based on experience (i.e. what I have directly seen as a comparison between the two). It isn't statistically accurate because the amount of data isn't high enough, but it is enough to be a fair representation of what people think about grinding. Could I be wrong? Of course. If you can show me information that proves I am wrong like we have done when you've made your claims of "millions", then I'll retract my statement. But I doubt you can show proof like we have done for your claims.

Btw, FPS games were around long before this game. And I haven't seen anyone claim this was remotely like an arena game. This issue it's that people want this game to be primarily a survival game when the devs clearly don't consider it as that.

I'll also point out that the average age of gamers has risen a lot from the 80s and 90s and even early 2000s. More and more gamers are older and don't have as much time to spend on games. They are working and often have kids that take up much of their time. That lowers the number who are willing to spend hours (and in some cases, days or weeks for MMOs) grinding for something.

 

[EvilPolygons]

I like to grind in games. I don't know why, I just do. It's relaxing to me, oddly enough.

To me, grinding in a PC game means "kill this one boss 500 times to get a full set of rare cookies." I don't consider the kind of gameplay you find in survival sims (not that 7DTD is one, mind you) to be "grinding," in the way that you grind in an MMO. In my mind, a real grind is about more than just repetition. It's a contextual thing, I guess.

 

[EvilPolygons]

I'll also point out that the average age of gamers has risen a lot from the 80s and 90s and even early 2000s. More and more gamers are older and don't have as much time to spend on games. They are working and often have kids that take up much of their time. That lowers the number who are willing to spend hours (and in some cases, days or weeks for MMOs) grinding for something.

That may be true for young adults. But once you're over the hump, past midlife, you should have more free time on your hands, not less. Between 50 and 60, you're heading towards retirement and the kids have left the nest.

 

[Adam the Waster]

But then TFP mentioned it at the 2.0 Town Hall so all is good... Moving on!

They told the forums/discord first

They could have gone on Twitter and said "our next plan is add *blank*

 

[Space4Ace]

They told the forums/discord first

They could have gone on Twitter and said "our next plan is add *blank*

Well, what can I say; they decided it was best to do the 2.0 town hall and talk about all the things they were going to do, all in the same live stream.
You really think they are going to post on X about every little things just to shut up a few complainers? Give me a break!