For the jaded more proof TFP are listening

Kyoji said:
make the world more freeform and less focused in any one direction.... I think you would have to balance exploration to equal questing to make ignoring traders an option for a portion of those players
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You're probably right. I get the impression they're making it more freeform (but for story mode) by removing the gatekeeping of biomes, especially. That's a big one. I would not underestimate, though, the fact that the entire map is just not viable and appealing now that organic water collection and LBD aren't things. That was the first thought to come to mind when testing all those different ways to play. How would you make the wilderness something more than empty, boring, useless space? I've thought about everything from the occasional overturned Crack-a-Book delivery truck to POIs that draw the eye from just about anywhere as Beth's and Obsidian's maps feature. There's nothing to discover in the wilderness of this game. So, why explore the wilderness?
 
Kalen said:
Hard to say what people would find reasonable since as a community there doesn't seem to be much we do agree on. For me personally, something small that can be completely mitigated with a few points in iron gut would be acceptable. IMO, you shouldn't have to max out the perk to make boiled water safe.
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I agree. I look at Iron Gut's small change to the percentage chance of getting dysentery as too small.

Currently:
Murky Water is a 12% chance of dysentery.

Iron Gut 1 drops that 1%
Iron Gut 2 drops that 2%
Iron Gut 3 drops that 3%
Iron Gut 4 drops that 4%
Iron Gut 5 drops that 5%

5 Perk points invested have very little effect on dysentery.

My suggestion (not saying its perfect):
Murky Water is 12% chance of dysentery.
Boiled Water is 3% (or 4%) chance of dysentery.

Iron Gut 1 drops it 4%
Iron Gut 2 drops it 8%
Iron Gut 3 drops it 12%
Iron Gut 4 does something else
Iron Gut 5 does something else
 
InfiniteWarrior said:
You're probably right. I get the impression they're making it more freeform (but for story mode) by removing the gatekeeping of biomes, especially. That's a big one. I would not underestimate, though, the fact that the entire map is just not viable and appealing now that organic water collection and LBD aren't things. That was the first thought to come to mind when testing all those different ways to play. How would you make the wilderness something more than empty, boring, useless space? I've thought about everything from the occasional overturned Crack-a-Book delivery truck to POIs that draw the eye from just about anywhere as Beth's and Obsidian's maps feature. There's nothing to discover in the wilderness of this game. So, why explore the wilderness?
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I think flatspot could help here. You could have dynamic events happen around the world around your position that encourage exploration. Such as a downed helicopter with supplies, etc. You could make events differ based on whether there is a tile or not so you can get wilderness events and city events.

Not sure it fully fixes it but it would be a big step on the right direction for randomness.

Note: Flatspot was discussed during the town hall as a way for the ingame engine to determine flat spots of land for spawning air drops and potentially other random events better.

Also just making remnant POIs more useful for loot/time spent. Since they are not hardened and now fill out a large portion of the maps. Bandits would help here as well as more zombie spawns within the remnant to compensate.
 
InfiniteWarrior said:
You're probably right. I get the impression they're making it more freeform (but for story mode) by removing the gatekeeping of biomes, especially. That's a big one. I would not underestimate, though, the fact that the entire map is just not viable and appealing now that organic water collection and LBD aren't things. That was the first thought to come to mind when testing all those different ways to play. How would you make the wilderness something more than empty, boring, useless space? I've thought about everything from the occasional overturned Crack-a-Book delivery truck to POIs that draw the eye from just about anywhere as Beth's and Obsidian's maps feature. There's nothing to discover in the wilderness of this game. So, why explore the wilderness?
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this is where the suggestion of them adding pre-made/non craftable legendary items could/would work for me. I like a reason to explore every corner of a map. looking for rares is fun (for me). There are some rare POI's that are fun to find.
I think I get what you are saying...we used to look just for the sake of looking.
 
Kyoji said:
I think flatspot could help here. You could have dynamic events happen around the world around your position that encourage exploration. Such as a downed helicopter with supplies, etc. You could make events differ based on whether there is a tile or not so you can get wilderness events and city events.

Not sure it fully fixes it but it would be a big step on the right direction for randomness.

Note: Flatspot was discussed during the town hall as a way for the ingame engine to determine flat spots of land for spawning air drops and potentially other random events better.
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That would definitely diversify directed gameplay, but not freeform.

You can count on me to be more concerned with aesthetics than mechanics. They're equally important in my book, but I distinctly get the impression, which could be mistaken, that TFP is comprised of programmers and modeller(s) trying to do the work of graphics artists and sound designers as well. I honestly don't get the impression they have any graphic artists and sound designers, else they wouldn't be using AI to generate supposed "art."
 
HammerDano said:
I like a reason to explore every corner of a map.
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Let's just hope they don't go the Elden Ring route: explore a corner of the map only to find a mushroom or Trina's Lily. :rolleyes: In fairness to FromSoftware, it was their first open world game and most developers of open world games have this "bigger is better" and "more is good" mindset that forgets: the more space in your game, the more there is to fill with...something.
 
Rather wild to see this having been posted because I opened the subreddit maybe 20 mins ago before coming here and I closed it almost immediately because every other post was whining about jars. Yet the one linked in OP wasn't amount then. Annoying.

Nevertheless, added some thoughts to the reddit post. TLDR of that post:

- Reduce jar stacks to 10 from 125. Same as murky water
- Lock jar recipe behind crucible
 
HammerDano said:
I would prefer it if they would fix 2.0 and get to work on 3.0. Not find another excuse to avoid implementing bandits...again

Personally, I don't need or want water jars "fixed" again. What we have works...does it need tweeking? a little...which is all the last system needed.
so tweek it AFTER.

To answer the OP: great, he went on Reddit...nowhere else...stirred up a convo about JARS...and maybe he is going to follow up later with a poll?
I don't really take that as a super positive sign, it is not bad that he did, but, being so haphazard doesn't encourage me.
THIS is THEIR forum...why nothing here?
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I agree with you on this. If they want to go backwards, let it happen after gold. Jars are not needed, and many of us don't want them.

It is one thing to try to fix issues with 2.0 before moving on to 3.0. It is something else entirely to spend time going backwards to something that hasn't been in the game for a long time while holding up 3.0 and 4.0 to do so. I may not think bandits will be a great addition, not an willing to try them. And I may think that the story is good for one game and only one game. But I still want to see the game finished sooner rather than later. There is no good reason to waste time on jars before gold. If they want to after gold, so be it.
 
Riamus said:
I agree with you on this. If they want to go backwards, let it happen after gold. Jars are not needed, and many of us don't want them.

It is one thing to try to fix issues with 2.0 before moving on to 3.0. It is something else entirely to spend time going backwards to something that hasn't been in the game for a long time while holding up 3.0 and 4.0 to do so. I may not think bandits will be a great addition, not an willing to try them. And I may think that the story is good for one game and only one game. But I still want to see the game finished sooner rather than later. There is no good reason to waste time on jars before gold. If they want to after gold, so be it.
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Once again, it is not about the jars!

/shrugs
 
Also, what do all the recent posts about jars after Joel posted on Reddit have in common with their suggestions? They want jars back. They might suggest changes to stack size or making them breakable, but they still want them back. What were they practically chanting during the town hall stream? Bring back jars.

Now, I know some just want to get water from a water source and don't care about jars, but most people complaining want the jars back. If you suggest they can get changes to water without bringing back jars, they don't agree with you.

Either way, let that be something for after we get other things done. Fix 2.0 issues (water wasn't part of 2.0), complete 3.0 and 4.0. Then they can add or change stuff all they want. But finish the game.
 
Riamus said:
Also, what do all the recent posts about jars after Joel posted on Reddit have in common with their suggestions? They want jars back.
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I dont get the whole jar thing either.. It has that feel about it through covid when everyone was brain washed by "we need toilet paper".

Yeah is illogical to get handed a jar of water out of the dew collector then for it to just disappear after drinking it. Thats nothing more than poor implementation. I still dont understand why TFP would remove the jar as its used with so many components of the game. In saying that it did need a rework as you could carry 125 jars of murky water & empty jars but only 10 of clean water. To me the simple fix would have been to make them the same value of 10 and it would restrict the amount of water you could make, collect and carry
 
theFlu said:
How many did you ask? I ain't making a claim either way, but curious how you came to the conclusion.
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Ok, I'll clarify that I am referring to what I see here.
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Charger265 said:
To me the simple fix would have been to make them the same value of 10 and it would restrict the amount of water you could make, collect and carry
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Unfortunately, that doesn't really solve the problem. It might require more clicks to fill everything, but you could just as easily fill up your inventory full of stacks of 10 and have a crazy amount of water in the first couple of days.
 
Riamus said:
Also, what do all the recent posts about jars after Joel posted on Reddit have in common with their suggestions? They want jars back. They might suggest changes to stack size or making them breakable, but they still want them back. What were they practically chanting during the town hall stream? Bring back jars.
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They know not what they seek :).

Riamus said:
Now, I know some just want to get water from a water source and don't care about jars, but most people complaining want the jars back. If you suggest they can get changes to water without bringing back jars, they don't agree with you.
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The devs or "the people"? If it is the people, see above. If it is dev, and the only way to make use of lakes, rivers and more immersion is with Jars, then well, "let there be light". In the "Mother of all Water Jars" thread, there were several options and none had to do with water jars.

Riamus said:
Either way, let that be something for after we get other things done. Fix 2.0 issues (water wasn't part of 2.0), complete 3.0 and 4.0. Then they can add or change stuff all they want. But finish the game.
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Your opinion ofcourse :). I rather they do bandits after Gold /runs.
 
Rotor said:
The devs or "the people"? If it is the people, see above. If it is dev, and the only way to make use of lakes, rivers and more immersion is with Jars, then well, "let there be light". In the "Mother of all Water Jars" thread, there were several options and none had to do with water jars.
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I was referring to the people posting here (not devs). And they could quite easily allow you to get water from a water source without using empty jars. There is nothing wrong with abstraction. I have no desire to start finding a ton of empty jars again. Even a reduced number doesn't make it better. I have no problem with a change that lets you get water from water sources that doesn't involve bringing jars back. I've made such suggestions myself... and was met with what I said... most of those who kept asking for jars to be brought back were unwilling to accept any suggestion that didn't involve bringing jars back. Again, that's what I've seen here. I don't go to Reddit or Steam.

Rotor said:
I rather they do bandits after Gold /runs.
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Honestly, with my expectations for bandits, I'd be fine with that.
 
Riamus said:
Unfortunately, that doesn't really solve the problem. It might require more clicks to fill everything, but you could just as easily fill up your inventory full of stacks of 10 and have a crazy amount of water in the first couple of days.
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So what is wrong with that? If you want to dedicate your time to emptying your backpack and filling it with stacks of 10 jars just to make sure you have a good supply of water... I would put that down to good planning and preparation fitting the survival theme.

Personally i think it does fix a lot of problems... implement that into the dew collector where you need to insert jars to be filled instead of just magically appearing and disappearing.
Make the dew collector provide drinking water at a slow rate and if you use jars (murky water) it takes longer to boil at the camp fire. These are just options and would do a much better job of immersion and balance. It keeps both sides of the fence happy and keeps the content in the game. and gives the players a choice as to how they go about it.
 
Riamus said:
Also, what do all the recent posts about jars after Joel posted on Reddit have in common with their suggestions? They want jars back. They might suggest changes to stack size or making them breakable, but they still want them back. What were they practically chanting during the town hall stream? Bring back jars.

Now, I know some just want to get water from a water source and don't care about jars, but most people complaining want the jars back. If you suggest they can get changes to water without bringing back jars, they don't agree with you.

Either way, let that be something for after we get other things done. Fix 2.0 issues (water wasn't part of 2.0), complete 3.0 and 4.0. Then they can add or change stuff all they want. But finish the game.
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Problem with that is that making core mechanic changes after more systems are added mean more systems have to be fixed later.

From a development standpoint I would think it better to do any changes now if you are sure you are going to do them, especially if they can impact more mechanics later.

For the record I would like bandits out before jars but not before 4.0, but that's because for me I don't care much about the Duke at this point. But again everyone will have their own interpretation of the situation, up the the developers to agree or disagree and make or not make changes.
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theFlu said:
How many did you ask? I ain't making a claim either way, but curious how you came to the conclusion.
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True. I did like the canteen idea someone came up with.
 
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