For the jaded more proof TFP are listening

Some of the replies have suggested that they want harder water collection:
  • Non-craftable
  • Require more than sand to craft, potentially a later game resource
  • More rare in loot
  • Lower stack size
  • Breakable
  • Perhaps boiling water is at a higher tech tier such as chem station
  • Levels of toxicity in water needing more or less time/effort depending on biome
  • Adjust the water purifier mod to be more rare or removed
  • Keep dew collectors
  • Remove heat from dew collectors
  • Natural water (lakes, rivers, etc) is irradiated (color hue for water) needing purification tablets

While I am not particularly invested in the issue of jars specifically I am interested in ways to make rivers, lakes and bodies of water provide some use. In order to make jars work you would need scarcity and ways for them to be removed from the game at a regular enough rate to which you don't have stacks of them that negate water issues later.

  • Non-craftable is an idea. With this all I would do is lower the loot drop rate for murky water and change between 50-70% of that into empty jars instead of murky water. This would essentially make water more scarce early on needing players to get a dew collector to be more self sufficient. But, you still run into the issue of end game and having many jars. Would need something else to lower the amount one would have end-game.
  • Requiring a late game resource to make glass jars? This is another potential option. I would still lower the loot drop rate for murky water and make empty jars more common than murky water. Would likewise need ways to remove jars from the game to prevent a massive buildup.
  • Lower stack sizes for jars would make being able to carry a lot of them effectively harder, but if you are just doing a water run it wouldn't fundamentally solve the problem and if combined with other ways to break jars would make it harder to do longer POIS such as T5. Overall if relegated to just jars then I am on board with it, but not to be extended to actual boiled water.
  • Breakable jars is another route. Not sure how breakable you could make them as falling, etc isn't common enough to get rid of a good number of jars. Also, making them break on hit would potentially end a longer run in a T5 POI such as Dishong. I know it is the more realistic approach but, I don't see how you do this without negative externalities associated with the change. If any thing consume on use would be less immersive, but much better at getting rid of extra jars while still maintaining the ability to get them from a water source. I would trade immersion for gameplay any day of the week.
  • Having boiled water at a higher tech tier such as chem station would solve the issue of early game being too easy for water, but doesn't solve the problem of too many jars end-game. It's not a bad suggestion in itself, but I wonder if combined with reduction of water in loot that the dew collector wouldn't come soon enough to make this a viable option. Perhaps with some balance tweaks this could work.
  • Levels of toxicity is a great idea and adding steps needed to boil the water in each biome would make sense for the progression path, not sure about the sandbox path. I suppose it would depend on the severity of the change. If it is just a bit more complicated perhaps needing cloth for the process to get rid of smoke and debris from the burnt forest and perhaps needing cloth and more time to get rid of sand in the desert, etc then I think it would be fine overall. But if you needed iodine tablets lets say then it would be hard to properly use in sandbox without making the difficulty spike to a degree which makes it unplayable as you would still need reduction in loot drops.
  • Adjusting the water mod should be a change. I think it should be removed, but making it lightly higher in the loot table and/or having it spawn much less often would be a nice change as at the very least you want early water survival to be a thing. For late game it's more of a quality of life feature I can live with.
  • Keeping dew collectors is fine. I would personally like them changed to rain collectors and have rain in each biome with the wasteland perhaps being irradiated rain that offers a potential risk. Or they could just be left as is, either way.
  • I do like the idea of removing heat from dew collectors. I get that people used to build like 20 of them, but if they changed back to a jar format then I think we can remove the heat generation from them. Screamers spawn too frequently IMO and a once rare event has become so commonplace it's lost the initial charm and scare factor.
  • Pushing water collection from rivers, lakes, etc to the mid-late game is an option and needing proper resources to provide you with extra water outside of what you would find in loot or the collector isn't a bad idea. Out of all the ideas this might be one of the easiest to implement overall. You just slightly lower the drop rates for water making it harder to come by early on and find a way to make them removeable so there isn't a massive supply later.

TL,DR
  • To make this work lower drop rate of murky water and jars in loot containers
  • Find a way to remove jars regularly enough to not be a hinderance in long POIs but still not have so much water in the mid-late game. My personal flavor is consumable on use like canned goods.
 
I would prefer it if they would fix 2.0 and get to work on 3.0. Not find another excuse to avoid implementing bandits...again

Personally, I don't need or want water jars "fixed" again. What we have works...does it need tweeking? a little...which is all the last system needed.
so tweek it AFTER.

To answer the OP: great, he went on Reddit...nowhere else...stirred up a convo about JARS...and maybe he is going to follow up later with a poll?
I don't really take that as a super positive sign, it is not bad that he did, but, being so haphazard doesn't encourage me.
THIS is THEIR forum...why nothing here?
 
HammerDano said:
I would prefer it if they would fix 2.0 and get to work on 3.0. Not find another excuse to avoid implementing bandits...again

Personally, I don't need or want water jars "fixed" again. What we have works...does it need tweeking? a little...which is all the last system needed.
so tweek it AFTER.

To answer the OP: great, he went on Reddit...nowhere else...stirred up a convo about JARS...and maybe he is going to follow up later with a poll?
I don't really take that as a super positive sign, it is not bad that he did, but, being so haphazard doesn't encourage me.
THIS is THEIR forum...why nothing here?
Click to expand...
I'll answer your question with a question. Why can't you just be happy they are listening. From your posts I can assume you prefer it if they did otherwise what would be the point of asking for changes? People complain about not involving the community, when they do it's not enough changes, and when they try to add more to the discussion people complain about how it's done. I can understand why people say it will never be enough. Sit back and take the "w" for engagement if nothing else. If you don't like jars just leave it at that.
 
Kyoji said:
Some of the replies have suggested that they want harder water collection:
  • Non-craftable
  • Require more than sand to craft, potentially a later game resource
  • More rare in loot
  • Lower stack size
  • Breakable
  • Perhaps boiling water is at a higher tech tier such as chem station
  • Levels of toxicity in water needing more or less time/effort depending on biome
  • Adjust the water purifier mod to be more rare or removed
  • Keep dew collectors
  • Remove heat from dew collectors
  • Natural water (lakes, rivers, etc) is irradiated (color hue for water) needing purification tablets

While I am not particularly invested in the issue of jars specifically I am interested in ways to make rivers, lakes and bodies of water provide some use. In order to make jars work you would need scarcity and ways for them to be removed from the game at a regular enough rate to which you don't have stacks of them that negate water issues later.

  • Non-craftable is an idea. With this all I would do is lower the loot drop rate for murky water and change between 50-70% of that into empty jars instead of murky water. This would essentially make water more scarce early on needing players to get a dew collector to be more self sufficient. But, you still run into the issue of end game and having many jars. Would need something else to lower the amount one would have end-game.
  • Requiring a late game resource to make glass jars? This is another potential option. I would still lower the loot drop rate for murky water and make empty jars more common than murky water. Would likewise need ways to remove jars from the game to prevent a massive buildup.
  • Lower stack sizes for jars would make being able to carry a lot of them effectively harder, but if you are just doing a water run it wouldn't fundamentally solve the problem and if combined with other ways to break jars would make it harder to do longer POIS such as T5. Overall if relegated to just jars then I am on board with it, but not to be extended to actual boiled water.
  • Breakable jars is another route. Not sure how breakable you could make them as falling, etc isn't common enough to get rid of a good number of jars. Also, making them break on hit would potentially end a longer run in a T5 POI such as Dishong. I know it is the more realistic approach but, I don't see how you do this without negative externalities associated with the change. If any thing consume on use would be less immersive, but much better at getting rid of extra jars while still maintaining the ability to get them from a water source. I would trade immersion for gameplay any day of the week.
  • Having boiled water at a higher tech tier such as chem station would solve the issue of early game being too easy for water, but doesn't solve the problem of too many jars end-game. It's not a bad suggestion in itself, but I wonder if combined with reduction of water in loot that the dew collector wouldn't come soon enough to make this a viable option. Perhaps with some balance tweaks this could work.
  • Levels of toxicity is a great idea and adding steps needed to boil the water in each biome would make sense for the progression path, not sure about the sandbox path. I suppose it would depend on the severity of the change. If it is just a bit more complicated perhaps needing cloth for the process to get rid of smoke and debris from the burnt forest and perhaps needing cloth and more time to get rid of sand in the desert, etc then I think it would be fine overall. But if you needed iodine tablets lets say then it would be hard to properly use in sandbox without making the difficulty spike to a degree which makes it unplayable as you would still need reduction in loot drops.
  • Adjusting the water mod should be a change. I think it should be removed, but making it lightly higher in the loot table and/or having it spawn much less often would be a nice change as at the very least you want early water survival to be a thing. For late game it's more of a quality of life feature I can live with.
  • Keeping dew collectors is fine. I would personally like them changed to rain collectors and have rain in each biome with the wasteland perhaps being irradiated rain that offers a potential risk. Or they could just be left as is, either way.
  • I do like the idea of removing heat from dew collectors. I get that people used to build like 20 of them, but if they changed back to a jar format then I think we can remove the heat generation from them. Screamers spawn too frequently IMO and a once rare event has become so commonplace it's lost the initial charm and scare factor.
  • Pushing water collection from rivers, lakes, etc to the mid-late game is an option and needing proper resources to provide you with extra water outside of what you would find in loot or the collector isn't a bad idea. Out of all the ideas this might be one of the easiest to implement overall. You just slightly lower the drop rates for water making it harder to come by early on and find a way to make them removeable so there isn't a massive supply later.

TL,DR
  • To make this work lower drop rate of murky water and jars in loot containers
  • Find a way to remove jars regularly enough to not be a hinderance in long POIs but still not have so much water in the mid-late game. My personal flavor is consumable on use like canned goods.
Click to expand...
Restricting boiling water to the chem station probably wouldn't go over that well, if I had to take a guess. The cooking pot is sufficient early-mid-late game, imo. Jars breaking, etc. Man, that would be a lot of work TFP probably doesn't have time for at this point. Crafting jars? Might need it if you can no longer find murky water filled jars everywhere.

The reusable canteen (or thermos or whatever) with a set number of drinks would elimiinate the lootable, breakable, craftable jar problem completely. Question is: would that be a satisfactory compromise for everyone? (Honestly miss mason jars actually looking like mason jars with the wheat/bee design myself, but that's a different concern altogether: aesthetics.)
 
Kyoji said:
Lower stack size
Click to expand...
I think this is the answer.... if jars were not craftable and only stacked to 10 (never made sense that jars, murky water, and clean water all had different stack sizes) water abundance would not be as much of an issue. Back when jars were in the game, it was trivial to keep a stack of 500 murky water and boil it as you needed it. Its a much different story to want to keep 50 stacks of 10 murky water.
 
Kyoji said:
I'll answer your question with a question. Why can't you just be happy they are listening. From your posts I can assume you prefer it if they did otherwise what would be the point of asking for changes? People complain about not involving the community, when they do it's not enough changes, and when they try to add more to the discussion people complain about how it's done. I can understand why people say it will never be enough. Sit back and take the "w" for engagement if nothing else. If you don't like jars just leave it at that.
Click to expand...
I am sorry,
InfiniteWarrior said:
Restricting boiling water to the chem station probably wouldn't go over that well, if I had to take a guess. The cooking pot is sufficient early-mid-late game, imo. Jars breaking, etc. Man, that would be a lot of work TFP probably doesn't have time for at this point. Crafting jars? Might need it if you can no longer find murky water filled jars everywhere.

The reusable canteen (or thermos or whatever) with a set number of drinks would elimiinate the lootable, breakable, craftable jar problem completely. Question is: would that be a satisfactory compromise for everyone? (Honestly miss mason jars actually looking like mason jars with the wheat/bee design myself, but that's a different concern altogether: aesthetics.)
Click to expand...
thank you InfiniteWarrior, your post neatly encapsulates the amount of detail and nitpickery that would be involved in changing the water system. Which at this point I am arguing is for no real gain. I am sorry Kyoji...haphazard effectively means ineffective...and the last thing I want is more delays...especially if it was started in a half assed way.
 
InfiniteWarrior said:
The reusable canteen (or thermos or whatever) with a set number of drinks would elimiinate the lootable, breakable, craftable jar problem completely. Question is: would that be a satisfactory compromise for everyone? (Honestly miss mason jars actually looking like mason jars with the wheat/bee design myself, but that's a different concern altogether: aesthetics.)
Click to expand...
That isn't a bad idea. Ala ARK if you will. They could even have the helmet mod be used for the canteen so you wouldn't have to boil it and different tiers that hold varying amounts of water. The issue would still be tweaking glue as again if you left murky water jars in the game it would make the canteen obsolete to a degree and if you have too few then you run into glue issues later.
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HammerDano said:
I am sorry,

thank you InfiniteWarrior, your post neatly encapsulates the amount of detail and nitpickery that would be involved in changing the water system. Which at this point I am arguing is for no real gain. I am sorry Kyoji...haphazard effectively means ineffective...and the last thing I want is more delays...especially if it was started in a half assed way.
Click to expand...
No worries man. We all make mistakes and get passionate about things we care about. I just want to make sure we don't turn the other forum users against opinions because of how they are presented. I am like you and am not a die hard jar guy, my only issue is with water being useless and would take jars or fishing. Whether that is more important than bandits? I would say no. Perhaps after as I prefer this to more story content.
 
HammerDano said:
your post neatly encapsulates the amount of detail and nitpickery that would be involved in changing the water system
Click to expand...
I'd have to disagree. It only exemplifies that overgranulation is probably not desirable, not that nothing should be done.
Post automatically merged:

Kyoji said:
The issue would still be tweaking glue as again if you left murky water jars in the game it would make the canteen obsolete to a degree and if you have too few then you run into glue issues later.
Click to expand...
I think the dew collector effectively makes up for the loss of murky water jars in toilets, etc. I understand they don't wnat people building glue factories, but honestly think that goes straight back to the fact that there will always be people seeking to game a game's systems.
 
Kyoji said:
That isn't a bad idea. Ala ARK if you will. They could even have the helmet mod be used for the canteen so you wouldn't have to boil it and different tiers that hold varying amounts of water. The issue would still be tweaking glue as again if you left murky water jars in the game it would make the canteen obsolete to a degree and if you have too few then you run into glue issues later.
Post automatically merged:


No worries man. We all make mistakes and get passionate about things we care about. I just want to make sure we don't turn the other forum users against opinions because of how they are presented. I am like you and am not a die hard jar guy, my only issue is with water being useless and would take jars or fishing. Whether that is more important than bandits? I would say no. Perhaps after as I prefer this to more story content.
Click to expand...
I actually like the dew collector (mostly)...it should also gather rain, but, that's one of those tweaks that could come later. It makes no sense that I collect water out of a collector that is in a schroedingers jar. But it doesn't matter to me that I can't reuse them. Maybe bring back using empty cans for early game water? idk...just not the issue I want them working on.
I want progress not another rework.
 
InfiniteWarrior said:
Restricting boiling water to the chem station probably wouldn't go over that well, if I had to take a guess.
Click to expand...

I often suggest making "potable water" only possible with a Chem Station, but that comes with a suggestion that boiled water carry a smaller chance of dysentery. So, if murky water is a 12% chance of dysentery, then boiled water is a 3% chance ... all modified by Iron Gut, if taken.

How do you think that would play with the masses?
 
zztong said:
I often suggest making "potable water" only possible with a Chem Station, but that comes with a suggestion that boiled water carry a smaller chance of dysentery. So, if murky water is a 12% chance of dysentery, then boiled water is a 3% chance ... all modified by Iron Gut, if taken.

How do you think that would play with the masses?
Click to expand...
Boiled water was changed to have a chance of dysentery years ago and very nearly started a riot until it was reverted back to zero chance. So I doubt it would go over any better now.
 
Kalen said:
I thought it was 5%, but the only thing I could find was in the change log for A13

  • Changed: Boiled water has a 10% chance of giving you dysentery
Click to expand...

Is there are percentage where you think a riot would be avoided, but the risk still be present?
Also, do you think adjustments to the amount of dysentery protection in Iron Gut would help? Do you invest in Iron Gut now?

What if Iron Gut 1 eliminated they dysentery chance from Boiled Water and Iron Gut 3 eliminated the dysentery chance from Murky Water?
 
zztong said:
Is there are percentage where you think a riot would be avoided, but the risk still be present?
Also, do you think adjustments to the amount of dysentery protection in Iron Gut would help? Do you invest in Iron Gut now?
Click to expand...
Hard to say what people would find reasonable since as a community there doesn't seem to be much we do agree on. For me personally, something small that can be completely mitigated with a few points in iron gut would be acceptable. IMO, you shouldn't have to max out the perk to make boiled water safe.
 
zztong said:
do you think adjustments to the amount of dysentery protection in Iron Gut would help? Do you invest in Iron Gut now?
Click to expand...
I don't. Goldenrod tea is an effective treatment. Played off one another, the player can choose if they want to invest in Iron Gut or not. Probably do if they don't want to risk not having any vitamins on hand. Otherwise, the goldenrod tea works just fine. Otherwise, they can choose to ride it out.
 
InfiniteWarrior said:
Haven't we established that jars are not the issue? Whether one considers it an issue or not, the rift is over natural vs. gamified water collection methods and there's a middle ground there, I think. No mods required.
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If they never put in water from jars no one would have noticed regardless. It's only because they have done so are people upset and I would argue it's not a big issue. You can't just take a wheel off a car, but instead have to find it. There are plenty of examples of gamified systems and that's because it is a game.

The big issue in my opinion is the shift from sandbox to story that turned a lot of people off and people gravitated towards A16 which was the last vestige of a bygone era of freedom and exploration. If anything I would say traders and quests have contributed much more to the downfall of the sandbox than jars, not that I expect them to change that. People miss the ability to walk into any POI and just loot it and not have to worry about diminished returns from not doing quests or going through "hardened" POIs that now largely force you into a singular path.

In my honest opinion while it's nice to fix some of the more minor changes that would make people happy for sure, if done right, the core issue hasn't been addressed which is to make the world more freeform and less focused in any one direction. I don't see many of the people who complained about A16 being suppressed because they bring jars back though I suppose it doesn't hurt them either.

I enjoy quests and traders, but I also understand and feel nostalgic towards just randomly visiting cool looking areas in search for loot. I think you would have to balance exploration to equal questing to make ignoring traders an option for a portion of those players as I doubt at this point they would be satisfied with just turning off traders with the POI hardening changes.
 
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