So TFP, you ever plan to address the main progression issue in 7dtd?

[InfiniteWarrior]

Incoming solutions

I'd think the incoming "solution" to the nonissue is the story. I'd expect the climax/ending will be in the Wasteland while everything leading up to it will be interspersed throughout all the other biomes in varying degree of difficulty. Follow the story and you'll follow the biomes. The issue is that artificial sense of navigation.

I say "nonissue" (whether a player chooses to leave the Forest) because it shouldn't matter to anyone else where another player goes or what another player chooses to do or not do and/or in what order. There's nothing wrong with a player choosing to set up permanent residence in the Forest or any other biome if that's what the play wants to do. And they do go to the other biomes, for the most part, that I've seen. They'll pick the Forest for their permanent residence one run; desert another run; snow another run; etc. Especially the megabase builders. I don't imagine they'd want to build a megabase in each unless on a whim. Trouble is: all manner of "progression" are being rolled into one. TFP are treating the biomes as though they were tier 1 through whatever odd jobs, in which event, why have variably tiered POIs in every biome?

 

[Kalen]

It's been speculated trader and biome "progression" has something to do with the upcoming story implementation, but I don't see how. Those other forms of progression have little to nothing to do with that, either.

Well one real easy way to tie progression to the story is to have the story advanced by the traders. For example, maybe you need to do a series of quests for Jen in order to progress the story. The best way to do that is to unlock the burnt biome.... of course, you don't HAVE to unlock it, you could just use smoothies to complete this hypothetical quest line.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

have the story advanced by the traders

...

Or the biomes?

I can't imagine that would be a very engaging story. It would be like going to Adrianne Avenicci to discover everything there is to know about the Dragonborn or asking the desert what it knows about the Duke. A story advanced by the traders.... That's been my impression of where they're going since "trader progression" was implemented. If so, it's a terrible idea, imo.

 

[Kalen]

...

Or the biomes?

I can't imagine that would be a very engaging story. It would be like going to Adrianne Avenicci to discover everything there is to know about the Dragonborn or asking the desert what it knows about the Duke. A story advanced by the traders.... That's been my impression of where they're going since "trader progression" was implemented. If so, it's a terrible idea, imo.

Well the biomes and traders are locked together so you can say advanced by traders or advanced by biomes and its pretty much the same thing. As to it being a terrible idea? I guess it depends on implementation. I just put this forward as a theoretical way of making biome progression have meaning, its certainly isn't the only way or even the best way, but it is a possible way of doing it.

 

[Sapient6]

Well the biomes and traders are locked together so you can say advanced by traders or advanced by biomes and its pretty much the same thing. As to it being a terrible idea? I guess it depends on implementation. I just put this forward as a theoretical way of making biome progression have meaning, its certainly isn't the only way or even the best way, but it is a possible way of doing it.

Also depends on a lot on where TFP goes with bandits. Bandits could have factions and a reputation system, with storyline tied to NPC's within bandit groups. It's pretty clear that Traders are set up to be aligned either with or against the duke. So there are definitely interesting ways this could go.

 

[Roland]

Trader 'progression'; biome 'progression' has nothing to do with how players choose to navigate around a map in any other open world game I've ever seen. You can go anywhere in a BGS game, for example. Whether you're ready to face that Mr. Gutsy across the road from the Revere sattelite array or the Super Mutants in it is an different question because the enemies become progressively more difficult the further South you go in Fallout 4. If you don't level your character and gear first, you're liable to have a hard time of it. Same with Elden Ring. You can go to the Altus Plateau any time you like. Question is: do you really want to? (FromSoftware's restriction of the vast majority of weapons and sorceries and incantations in specific regions while leaving a few consolation prizes for every possible build in other biomes is a little dubious, but I digress.)

In theory you could go into the wasteland from day one. I haven't actually tried it. I did see some supercorn for sale at a trader. Maybe someone who tried it as a challenge can chime in? At any rate, IF it is actually possible to earn your wasteland biome badge as your first badge and move yourself into that biome first then technically this game still qualifies as being one of those open world games where you can go wherever you want as long as you make the proper preparations. On paper, it seems possible and all this talk is just a bunch of the typical over reaction we see at every update by those who judge before actually properly playing and adapting to the changes. But perhaps it really is impossible to go directly to the wasteland and start the game there.

 

[meganoth]

As usual it is the details that make the story great or forgetable. The same old fetch quest can be made exiting by great dialogue. "The Maltese Falcon" is about a McGuffin just like all the transformer movies, but only one of those movies is a classic.

I hope they will use POIs specifically made to be cleared and inspected for clues to the story. With details to connect and interpret. But realistically every John and Joe has to be able to get to the end of it so those details will be entirely optional. As Roland said a long time ago already, don't expect too much of the story.

 

[theFlu]

At any rate, IF it is actually possible to earn your wasteland biome badge as your first badge

Not in vanilla, each badge requires the previous one (the first one replaces that with a piece of armor, iirc).

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Well the biomes and traders are locked together...

Didn't used to be and how pleasant was it to discover who the trader was going to be everywhere you went rather than them being static and predictable? (With the possible exception of Rekt.)

I'd think the story would be advanced by the story and elements of the story interspersed throughout the biomes, leading you through them naturally. The traders supposedly will have "trader reputation" that will change according to which the player finds an affinity with: Noah or the Duke. They might even have something to say about why they're under the influence (or "protection") of one or the other. Does that demand they be in a particular biome? If the biomes comprise the territories of one or the other, TFP might be thinking the traders must be in those respective territories, but it's still not essential.

You start in Subnautica and, what you don't discover on your own, radio messages and journals either lead you to and/or offer exposition of character and story when the player is good and ready to respond to and/or pursue them. Players' actions drive their "progression" through the game world and its biomes. Snippets of characterization and story are interspersed throughout the biomes as, more or less, a trail of breadcrumbs to consult and I'd wager they were placed after the game's mechanical elements were in place. I'd imagine the story of 7DTD will be somewhat similar. (It's not a RPG, so I wouldn't expect extensive dialogue trees with a variety of major NPCs or multiple outcomes of actual quests and endings.)

How does such a story demand all this linearization -- of player access to traders, of player access to biomes? "Loot caps?" Sure, if you want. But player navigation around the world? That's a different concern altogether. Follow the story and you'll be following the devs set path through the world. In RPGs, story and setting (preferably) come before system mechanics and the system mechanics support the setting and story. In games like 7DTD and Green Hell, the game world and system mechanics come first. The story is more less layered on thereafter, which is why I think of them as afterthoughts.

 

[Kalen]

I'd think the story would be advanced by the story and elements of the story interspersed throughout the biomes, leading you through them naturally. The traders supposedly will have "trader reputation" that will change according to which the player finds an affinity with: Noah or the Duke. They might even have something to say about why they're under the influence (or "protection") of one or the other. Does that demand they be in a particular biome? If the biomes comprise the territories of one or the other, TFP might be thinking the traders must be in those respective territories, but it's still not essential.

You might be forgetting that the game is supposed to be played in Navezgane which is a fixed map with the traders is specific locations. I would suspect, strongly, that the story will also be built around that. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the storyline HAS to be played on the Navezgane map. So it would absolutely make sense, IMO, that the story progression would work in parallel with biome/trader progression.

I just want to point out, I'm not advocating for anything.... I'm just giving a possible way that biome progression can have a purpose, since that was the point of this thread.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

the game is supposed to be played in Navezgane which is a fixed map

If it were, it wouldn't have a RWG mixer, but I know what you mean. I've mentioned before that the story might work best as a "story mode" exclusive to the fixed Navezgane map as Green Hell's is. Others were quick to say they don't want it so confined and want the story available in RWG maps as well.

I think they might be tiring of that story very quickly if it automatically plays on both the fixed and RWG maps. I think Raimus mentioned an option to turn it on and off, both in Navezgane and RWG maps. I don't know how feasible that is because I don't know what TFP has mind for it.

I'm not advocating for anything either. As per my first post on the subject, I'm just conveying where some people are getting the idea TFP is "forcing" them on a specific path. The game is specifically asking them to, if not forcing them to follow a specific path -- without a story. It feels forced, but biome progression already has and always has had a purpose. They always have had their own characteristics; have been progressively more dangerous; and boasted progressively higher loot stages. What other purpose do they need? What other purpose they might serve is something TFP hasn't shared with us.

 

[Riamus]

The story should definitely be limited to Navesgane and perhaps the pregen maps. There's no need for it on every map. No one will be interested in seeing the story every single game they play, considering most people play this game dozens of times.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

the pregen maps

The problem with the pregen maps is that they're just as random as RWG maps. They were derived from the RWG mixer. Nothing is hand-placed, e.g. Noah and the Duke's compounds, so I imagine the pregens would open up a whole new can of worms with regard to the story as player generated maps.

Whatever they do, I guess we'll see.

 

[Riamus]

The problem with the pregen maps is that they're just as random as RWG maps. They were derived from the RWG mixer. Nothing is hand-placed, e.g. Noah and the Duke's compounds, so I imagine the pregens would open up a whole new can of worms with regard to the story as player generated maps.

Whatever they do, I guess we'll see.

Yes, but they can still manually place those compounds. I mention those because people who want variety and still want the story can have it.

 

[Roland]

Not in vanilla, each badge requires the previous one (the first one replaces that with a piece of armor, iirc).

Ah yes. I forgot that detail. Probably best then to just turn off biome progression if someone desires to start in the wasteland.

 

[Kyoji]

On paper, it seems possible and all this talk is just a bunch of the typical over reaction we see at every update by those who judge before actually properly playing and adapting to the changes.

I get that there is enough "random" hate to want to defend TFP. That being said it's important not to do the opposite and assume that everything will be roses. Sometimes over reaction is what allows developers to see what works and what isn't clicking with their audience. Look at Hell Divers 2, SW Battlefront, etc.

 

[Roland]

I get that there is enough "random" hate to want to defend TFP. That being said it's important not to do the opposite and assume that everything will be roses. Sometimes over reaction is what allows developers to see what works and what isn't clicking with their audience. Look at Hell Divers 2, SW Battlefront, etc.

Exactly. Only sometimes. Not exactly an infallible gauge to develop by….

They’ve taken note of the loud angry posts but are not going to knee-jerk change things until they see how players who are willing to play with it and adapt respond and that takes time. I’m not assuming everything is roses but I have seen time after time that nerfs or limits that are complained about at first are completely accepted as good things later by most players.

In this case I think most players will adjust their thinking and TFP will make adjustments and somewhere in the middle is where we will end up. And for those who can’t even stomach the compromise can turn it off just like some players turn off horde nights.

 

[Kyoji]

Exactly. Only sometimes. Not exactly an infallible gauge to develop by….

They’ve taken note of the loud angry posts but are not going to knee-jerk change things until they see how players who are willing to play with it and adapt respond and that takes time. I’m not assuming everything is roses but I have seen time after time that nerfs or limits that are complained about at first are completely accepted as good things later by most players.

In this case I think most players will adjust their thinking and TFP will make adjustments and somewhere in the middle is where we will end up. And for those who can’t even stomach the compromise can turn it off just like some players turn off horde nights.

I don't think many feel that storms and progression is outright bad, just poorly implemented.

I agree that over time perception on things can change as we learn more by playing and perhaps that will happen here. It's also possible that people give up on change. Storms isn't a hill I'll die on as an example but I personally find them a bit boring after the first several as all I do is run to a nearby POI, but storms as a general idea is fine and if they make no changes I'll think it's still better than not having them just not as good as they could be IMO.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Exactly. Only sometimes. Not exactly an infallible gauge to develop by….

They’ve taken note of the loud angry posts but are not going to knee-jerk change things until they see how players who are willing to play with it and adapt respond and that takes time. I’m not assuming everything is roses but I have seen time after time that nerfs or limits that are complained about at first are completely accepted as good things later by most players.

In this case I think most players will adjust their thinking and TFP will make adjustments and somewhere in the middle is where we will end up. And for those who can’t even stomach the compromise can turn it off just like some players turn off horde nights.

Honestly, my biggest problem with the biome progression is so much of it is so largely pointless. The only time you're forced to actually interact with the biome hazards is getting radiated mushrooms, everything for the other smoothies can be gathered in the pine forest.

It just makes me wonder what the point of it was.

 

[Kyoji]

Honestly, my biggest problem with the biome progression is so much of it is so largely pointless. The only time you're forced to actually interact with the biome hazards is getting radiated mushrooms, everything for the other smoothies can be gathered in the pine forest.

It just makes me wonder what the point of it was.

I would say it's more of a place holder for progression.

Funny enough it's almost as if they spent 6 months of the year working on nothing then 3 months working on the game and 3 months changing things they worked on three times over.