ZZTong-Prefabs (V2.0) V2.1-ZZ029

[zztong]

I've got a choice to make. I've got three wilderness POIs that are larger than 100x100. Now that RWG is trying to put wilderness POIs closer to one another, those three POIs get too close to other things and then end up with a stone cliff height transition.

The long-term answer ultimately means some structural changes for those POIs. Two can be made smaller and one can be turned into a Tile. If I make those changes they will not be backward compatible with maps generated using the older POIs.

Do I make the changes now and try to make everyone aware of the incompatibility, or do I wait for 3.0 when everyone would expect incompatibility?

 

[EvilPolygons]

I was under the impression that this was a just a bug with 2.0 and that it was being worked on.

Is that not the case? Are large wilderness POIs basically a thing of the past now? Because that would seriously suck.

 

[zztong]

I was under the impression that this was a just a bug with 2.0 and that it was being worked on.

Is that not the case? Are large wilderness POIs basically a thing of the past now? Because that would seriously suck.

I don't know. I do know that TFP doesn't have any 150x150 POIs, only Tiles at that size. I could see it being a bug to be resolve, but also the design.

What I do know is my Ranch at 120x120 can be 100x100. My Motorcross Track at 150x150 is out of date and could take advantage of new terrain features. It could just as easily be a 100x100.

That would leave my new Village POI at 150x150 and maybe that's better as a Tile?

 

[Rotor]

Wellk I am only in day 3 with your PoIs, so update away

 

[zztong]

Wellk I am only in day 3 with your PoIs, so update away

If TFP is saying "make a new map" for 2.1, I'll just make the changes. I need to reread those 2.1 EXP notes. I didn't quite understand what they were saying about a map bug and I thought they were saying "if your game locked up, make a new map."

Today I converted the ranch and motocross both to 100x100, but not configured the new versions to appear. The village POI is the puzzler.

 

[EvilPolygons]

That would leave my new Village POI at 150x150 and maybe that's better as a Tile?

With the dirt road that cuts through it, seems like it wouldn't be too much trouble to convert it into a straight highway tile.

 

[zztong]

With the dirt road that cuts through it, seems like it wouldn't be too much trouble to convert it into a straight highway tile.

The road entrance has to move to the center of the edge. I'm pretty confident in being able to move the road, pond, and bridge to that spot. After that I can make it do anything I want. I would likely make it a "Cap" Tile so that the village could stand alone at 1 Tile in size and still have a 9-block wide dirt road leading to it in a manner just like how TFP does the Old West town.

By "straight highway tile", I think you mean a straight gateway tile, which puts it on the paved road network. That kind of Tile can be used as an entrance to a settlement (township), which doesn't really fit with that village's theme.

 

[Riamus]

If TFP is saying "make a new map" for 2.1, I'll just make the changes. I need to reread those 2.1 EXP notes. I didn't quite understand what they were saying about a map bug and I thought they were saying "if your game locked up, make a new map."

Today I converted the ranch and motocross both to 100x100, but not configured the new versions to appear. The village POI is the puzzler.

I'm not sure which part you mean. The recommendation for a new save is their normal recommendation with any update and isn't really important. If you mean the bug about minscript, I don't think that would require a new map except if someone has experienced the bug, and even then, they can just replace the main.ttw file with the backup from what I saw about it.

What if you included the older versions of those POI in your pack, but set the max value for spawning in your rwgmixer to 0 for them? Then they are there for older maps but won't generate for new maps when using RWG. That doesn't help with Teragon since Teragon doesn't look at the rwgmixer file, but if you wanted to have the max_spawn value set to 0 in an included POI Property List, you could do so. I'm not sure that matters too much since Teragon didn't change how POI are placed anyhow. But it would mean Teragon could place both copies if the list isn't used. That also may not matter too much. Having a variation of the POI just keeps things interesting, I think. And if you think you want to remove them eventually just because you don't plan on keeping the older versions updated, then 3.0 would be a good time to do so. And you'd still have them compatible in 2.x by keeping both versions in your modlet.

 

[EvilPolygons]

The road entrance has to move to the center of the edge. I'm pretty confident in being able to move the road, pond, and bridge to that spot. After that I can make it do anything I want. I would likely make it a "Cap" Tile so that the village could stand alone at 1 Tile in size and still have a 9-block wide dirt road leading to it in a manner just like how TFP does the Old West town.

By "straight highway tile", I think you mean a straight gateway tile, which puts it on the paved road network. That kind of Tile can be used as an entrance to a settlement (township), which doesn't really fit with that village's theme.

No, by highway tile I mean the special street tiles in the rwgmixer that spawn along main roads out in the wilderness. There are straight and 4-way versions. Not town/city gateway tiles.

As I recall, you have some of those in your pack.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Okay, I feel like I'm doing a terrible job of describing what I mean, lol.

Some people call them "country" tiles because they spawn on paved roads between cities. I call them "highway" tiles for the same reason. The specific tile you see used this way is "rwg_tile_gateway_intersection."

What's weird is I remember a straight tile very similar to the 4-way back around a20 that could also spawn on paved roads out in the country. It's possible that what I'm remembering was just an earlier, less detailed predecessor of the current rwg_tile_gateway_intersection. I don't know.

It was my understanding that rwg_tile_gateway_intersection doesn't spawn as a normal gateway tile. I've only ever noticed it spawning far away from cities and towns, never as an actual town gateway.

 

[zztong]

What if you included the older versions of those POI in your pack, but set the max value for spawning in your rwgmixer to 0 for them?

The two different versions cannot use the same filename. I would have to decide to either make the old or the new the default and store the others outside of the Prefabs folder so the game wouldn't find them. Then those using the modlet may have to manipulate the contents of the modlet to get what they want, which is too much for many folks.

Some people call them "country" tiles because they spawn on paved roads between cities. I call them "highway" tiles for the same reason. The specific tile you see used this way is "rwg_tile_gateway_intersection."

You're clear. That's a gateway straight tile, and it can be used out in the wilderness along the paved road system. It can also be used as the entrance to a township (countrytown, town, city). TFP ships I think 4 of those tiles and I add around 8 of them because they get used heavily by RWG.

It was my understanding that rwg_tile_gateway_intersection doesn't spawn as a normal gateway tile. I've only ever noticed it spawning far away from cities and towns, never as an actual town gateway.

Ah, now gateway intersection you might be right. It's probably rare for an entrance to a township to need to connect to three roads, unless RWG starts to wrap a paved road around a township.

For me to change the Village POI into a Gateway Intersection, I would have to really move stuff around to cater to an exit on each side. That Village was to be a small, isolated farm community with some company houses from something like an old mining operation. But I could perhaps envision something like a little bedroom community being on a Gateway Intersection.

 

[Riamus]

The two different versions cannot use the same filename. I would have to decide to either make the old or the new the default and store the others outside of the Prefabs folder so the game wouldn't find them. Then those using the modlet may have to manipulate the contents of the modlet to get what they want, which is too much for many folks.

Yeah. I was thinking more about the old being left alone and the new having the number incremented... so something like motocross_01, then the old stays that and the new is motocross_02 or something else like motocross_small_01 or whatever. If you wanted to make the old maps still compatible, you'd need to keep the original name the same until you're ready to remove the old version. Keeping them outside the main folder would also be an option that I hadn't thought of, but like you said, it requires users to do manual work.

I think it is really just up to how you want to do it. There's nothing wrong with doing an update now that has a big warning on it that says to create a new map if updating your mod or to wait to update your mod until they are ready to start a new map. People might mess up, but it *probably* won't break the map and they may just have issues with those specific POI and the terrain around them. And if they saw that, they could also probably replace the old version of the POI and have it show up correctly even after having loaded the save with the new version of your mod. Or, if you want to avoid people having that kind of trouble, just wait for 3.0. That means you can't make the POI smaller for probably about a year, but that might not be a big deal.

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2025

unless RWG starts to wrap a paved road around a township.

Didn't RWG start making "bypass" roads that went all the way around towns in 1.0? I haven't really touched RWG to see if it still does that, but I remember seeing it back then. I don't know if it was doing that with the intersection gateways, though. They may have just had roads connecting to roads and then joining to a straight gateway or T gateway or something.

 

[zztong]

I think it is really just up to how you want to do it. There's nothing wrong with doing an update now that has a big warning on it that says to create a new map if updating your mod or to wait to update your mod until they are ready to start a new map. People might mess up, but it *probably* won't break the map and they may just have issues with those specific POI and the terrain around them.

You're right, I have the control, but I had two reasons for seeking opinions: (1) somebody might think of something I haven't, and (2) I want to minimize the number of support requests I get.

Didn't RWG start making "bypass" roads that went all the way around towns in 1.0? I haven't really touched RWG to see if it still does that, but I remember seeing it back then. I don't know if it was doing that with the intersection gateways, though. They may have just had roads connecting to roads and then joining to a straight gateway or T gateway or something.

I recall that being discussed. I don't recall seeing it consistently. It would take T's and Intersections to make it happen.

There's an occasional bug where a gateway as the entrance to a township doesn't actually connect with the township's Tiles. That is, the township's Tiles don't present a road connection to match up with the gateway. You get a road leading to a town that dead-ends in a POI or some Tile content like a hill.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Ah, now gateway intersection you might be right. It's probably rare for an entrance to a township to need to connect to three roads, unless RWG starts to wrap a paved road around a township.

I only brought it up because I thought that there was a 2-exit intersection similar to the 4-exit rwg_tile_gateway_intersection. But after looking through the vanilla tiles, not a single one matches my memory.

For me to change the Village POI into a Gateway Intersection, I would have to really move stuff around to cater to an exit on each side. That Village was to be a small, isolated farm community with some company houses from something like an old mining operation. But I could perhaps envision something like a little bedroom community being on a Gateway Intersection.

Yeah, you'd have to really mangle your village to get it to work as a 4-way intersection. That would be a shame. Much better to save that idea for something else.

 

[Riamus]

I only brought it up because I thought that there was a 2-exit intersection similar to the 4-exit rwg_tile_gateway_intersection. But after looking through the vanilla tiles, not a single one matches my memory.

That's the rwg_tile_gateway_t tile.

 

[EvilPolygons]

That's the rwg_tile_gateway_t tile.

Maybe, but what I remember was a 2-exit tile with no POI spots on it. Just a straight section of highway with several wrecked cars in the center of it, very much like the 4-way intersection (sans overpass).

Could be a false memory. Could be I'm remembering an earlier version of the 4-way. Might even be simply a vague memory of driving up on the overpass side of the 4-way and not noticing the roadway underneath! I have no idea, lol.

 

[zztong]

Maybe, but what I remember was a 2-exit tile with no POI spots on it. Just a straight section of highway with several wrecked cars in the center of it, very much like the 4-way intersection (sans overpass).

It is rwg_tile_gateway_intersection2 and there are three Parts in the intersection each with a 10% chance of appearing. Two are car wrecks and one is something like a camp.

 

[Sixx]

Hey I read the installation instructions, but just to be on the safe side, I'm asking again to
make sure everything runs correctly from the beginning, since I want to start a new game
(after 2 years). Not that I misunderstood anything.

I copy the mod into the mod directory as usual.
Then I can easily adjust the biomes and set the map size to 10k using the World Generator
(advanced generation) without having to do anything else? And the 10k map works too?
I play completely solo.

Thanks,
Sixx

Example of what the map could look like

 

[zztong]

Hey I read the installation instructions, but just to be on the safe side, I'm asking again to
make sure everything runs correctly from the beginning, since I want to start a new game
(after 2 years). Not that I misunderstood anything.

I copy the mod into the mod directory as usual.
Then I can easily adjust the biomes and set the map size to 10k using the World Generator
(advanced generation) without having to do anything else? And the 10k map works too?
I play completely solo.

Thanks,
Sixx

Example of what the map could look like
View attachment 35363

Yes, that's what I aim to deliver, is an RWG friendly configuration. I tend to test with an 8k map with default options, but going bigger should be no problem. You'll get more repetition as a 10k map is 56% larger than an 8k map (by area).

I see you like a large Pine Forest, so you'll probably get lots of wilderness POIs there as the biggest townships for the Pine Forest are Country Towns. That may mean your cities in Snow and Wasteland get pushed together, and I could see an appeal to that.

If you have any issues, please let me know. I want to be responsive.

I would also pass along a glimpse at the future for this modlet since you seem to hang onto a map for a long time. I've got a couple of changes coming that are not backward compatible (for existing maps) and I'm trying to figure out the best time to do that. When that update lands you're not going to want to upgrade my modlet unless you want to start a new map.

 

[Sixx]

I would also pass along a glimpse at the future for this modlet since you seem to hang onto a map for a long time. I've got a couple of changes coming that are not backward compatible (for existing maps) and I'm trying to figure out the best time to do that. When that update lands you're not going to want to upgrade my modlet unless you want to start a new map.

Thanks for the detailed answer

Yes, I always play a map for quite a long time because I simply don't like starting over (no matter what game). So it should be "planned" so that everything runs smoothly.

Can you estimate when the update might be released? I won't restart overnight, as I have one or two other things running at the moment. 7D2D is basically planned for "afterward."