A Concept For Engineering in The General Perks Tree

[Paiper Zombee]

One of the things I was looking forward to in the 2.0 Update was the addition of the General Perks tree. I've always disliked that just to get to the things that allow for basic survival, (i.e cooking, farming, crafting workstations) a player was forced to put points into Strength (cooking), Fortitude (farming), and Intellect (crafting workstations).

I was happy to see that cooking and farming made it into the General Perks tree, but Advanced Engineering is still in the Intellect tree meaning that a player is still forced to put a point there if they want to have their crafting workstations.

Can a change be considered for this please? A player should not be forced into specific trees just to get the things needed for basic survival. If it's the buffs that come with Advanced Engineering that the devs feel is too powerful for a General Perk, then how about putting a perk called Engineering in the General
Perk Tree and allowing it to function like so:

Engineering (General Perk)
1 (Requires 1 Point) = Dew Collectors
2 (Requires 2 Points) = Forge
3 (Requires 2 Points) = Workbench & Cement Mixers
4 (Requires 2 Points) = Chem Station & Crucible

Intellect would still keep Advanced Engineering, but each rank would now offer the XP gain from trap kills, faster item crafting, and less resource cost to crafting items. This way players are no longer forced to put a point into Intellect just to gain access to make crafting workstations.

Would players be okay with a change like this, or is it too much?

 

[Riamus]

but Advanced Engineering is still in the Intellect tree meaning that a player is still forced to put a point there if they want to have their crafting workstations.

That isn't true. I never put points in that. You don't need any points in any perks in order to craft anything. All you need are enough magazines (or schematics for mods). Some perks make finding magazines easier, but they are not required. And Forge Ahead magazines are easy to find... every trader has workstations, and you can usually find at least 1 and often 2 per trader (more are possible, but less likely). If you look in garages, you'll often find workbenches that may have them. If you look anywhere that has construction, there are usually cement mixers that are almost guaranteed to have them. And so on.

 

[Paiper Zombee]

That isn't true. I never put points in that. You don't need any points in any perks in order to craft anything. All you need are enough magazines (or schematics for mods). Some perks make finding magazines easier, but they are not required. And Forge Ahead magazines are easy to find... every trader has workstations, and you can usually find at least 1 and often 2 per trader (more are possible, but less likely). If you look in garages, you'll often find workbenches that may have them. If you look anywhere that has construction, there are usually cement mixers that are almost guaranteed to have them. And so on.

It may not be true in your experience, but it is true for my play experience. Forge Ahead magazines (just like the Southern Farming magazines) seem to have a lower than average drop rate when I play vs all the other magazines I've put points into to find. It is true that traders do eventually start carrying workstations, but in my experience I've had to get the Quest Tier up to at least 3 before I started to see just forges available for purchase. With the new lootstage caps on the biomes is it even possible to get any of them to show up on traders in the forest and burnt forest biome?

As far as finding working crafting stations off of broken ones, I thought they took that out of the game along with finding random crafting stations out in the world that still worked. I say that because I haven't found any of those items since that change, and I've looted a LOT of them.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Forge Ahead magazines (just like the Southern Farming magazines) seem to have a lower than average drop rate when I play

My experience has been the opposite for both. I usually have a forge end of day one or two and cooking magazines are plentiful, especially in residential POIs. Workbench by end of day 4. The only reason I ever take Advanced Engineering is to speed up crafting time and what not. Maybe you're just not looking in the right places for the magazines you need?

 

[Riamus]

It may not be true in your experience, but it is true for my play experience. Forge Ahead magazines (just like the Southern Farming magazines) seem to have a lower than average drop rate when I play vs all the other magazines I've put points into to find. It is true that traders do eventually start carrying workstations, but in my experience I've had to get the Quest Tier up to at least 3 before I started to see just forges available for purchase. With the new lootstage caps on the biomes is it even possible to get any of them to show up on traders in the forest and burnt forest biome?

As far as finding working crafting stations off of broken ones, I thought they took that out of the game along with finding random crafting stations out in the world that still worked. I say that because I haven't found any of those items since that change, and I've looted a LOT of them.

Their drop rate is actually quite good. However, they have specific places where they can be found. They won't appear in mailboxes or newsstands, and I'm not sure that they appear in regular loot either, though I would have to look at the XML. But without checking the probability in the XML, I estimate that the forge ahead magazines drop about 8-9 times out of 10 from cement mixers, about 7-9 times out of 10 from forges, and about 3-4 times out of 10 from workbenches and chem stations. Those are very good odds. But you have to look in the right places. Many magazines have specific places to find them. As I said, in all the games I've played, which is a LOT, I never put points into that until very late game, if at all. And in all those games, I can find forge ahead magazines easily because I know that they drop from those workstations. I told you where to look for them. Give it a try. I can often have a forge with 2-3 hours real-time (or less) without the slightest trouble. Chem stations still take time because you need so many, but the forge and workbench are very easy, and the cement mixer isn't that bad either.

I didn't say anything about finding working workstations. Those are gone (in vanilla). You loot broken ones that are found all over the place.

Farming magazines can be found in kitchen cabinets. They aren't as common as cooking if course, but you only need 20 of them, so it doesn't really matter. That is usually the first thing I max out. Again, without using perk points to assist.

 

[BFT2020]

Locations to find workstation magazines

• Crack A Book Crates
• Bookcases
• Working Stiff crates
• All destroyed workstations (including dew collectors)
• Rolling tool boxes
• Utility Worker Zombie loot bag
• Lab worker zombie loot bag

 

[BFT2020]

With the new lootstage caps on the biomes is it even possible to get any of them to show up on traders in the forest and burnt forest biome?

Loot stage and trader stage are two different things - so a cap on loot stage doesn't affect trader stage.

• Forges are available Stage 0 (minimum of 10)
• Workbenches are available mid Stage 1 (minimum of 20)
• Cement Mixers are available mid Stage 1 (minimum of 20)
• Chemistry stations are available mid Stage 2 (minimum of 30)

 

[Riamus]

Just as a side note, if you are really having a lot of difficulty finding magazines, consider putting points into Intellect Mastery. Perk 2 gives 25% chance of getting a magazine/book/schematic (or an extra if you are already getting one), and perk 3 gives a 50% chance to get twice the points when reading a magazine. That's without even choosing to use the nerd armor. I decided to try it out, and in one tier 2 POI I got 6 or 7 extra magazines/books/schematics (it dings when you get an extra). It does require you to invest heavily into intellect (perk 2 requires 7 points in intellect and perk 3 requires 8 points in intellect), so it isn't for everyone. But for anyone who has trouble with magazines, it can make a very significant difference.

Still, in the end, forge ahead and other certain magazines can only be found in specific containers. You need to know where to look. If you're not looting the right places, it may seem like they are very rare even if they are actually very common when looking in the right places.

Btw, I looked up the forge ahead magazine probability in forges... it's set to "high", which means 75% chance. It is the same for the cement mixer. So it is easy to find if you are looking in those places. And that's just two locations.

 

[Paiper Zombee]

Loot stage and trader stage are two different things - so a cap on loot stage doesn't affect trader stage.

• Forges are available Stage 0 (minimum of 10)
• Workbenches are available mid Stage 1 (minimum of 20)
• Cement Mixers are available mid Stage 1 (minimum of 20)
• Chemistry stations are available mid Stage 2 (minimum of 30)

Good to know that loot and trader stages are separate and the two do not affect one another. So that is an alternative if one has the money to purchase them.

Their drop rate is actually quite good. However, they have specific places where they can be found. They won't appear in mailboxes or newsstands, and I'm not sure that they appear in regular loot either, though I would have to look at the XML. But without checking the probability in the XML, I estimate that the forge ahead magazines drop about 8-9 times out of 10 from cement mixers, about 7-9 times out of 10 from forges, and about 3-4 times out of 10 from workbenches and chem stations. Those are very good odds. But you have to look in the right places. Many magazines have specific places to find them. As I said, in all the games I've played, which is a LOT, I never put points into that until very late game, if at all. And in all those games, I can find forge ahead magazines easily because I know that they drop from those workstations. I told you where to look for them. Give it a try. I can often have a forge with 2-3 hours real-time (or less) without the slightest trouble. Chem stations still take time because you need so many, but the forge and workbench are very easy, and the cement mixer isn't that bad either.

I didn't say anything about finding working workstations. Those are gone (in vanilla). You loot broken ones that are found all over the place.

Farming magazines can be found in kitchen cabinets. They aren't as common as cooking if course, but you only need 20 of them, so it doesn't really matter. That is usually the first thing I max out. Again, without using perk points to assist.

I was able to do some focused testing on this and came away with this result. With 0 points in Advanced Engineering my drop rate for Forge Ahead magazines was horrible. In the space of an in game day I was able to find a total of 3 magazines. I kept my search to the Pine Forest on the Navazgane map and hit every location I knew of that had the potential to yield magazines. I hit houses, construction sites, the Trader, and even went through the Working Stiffs store and looted everything. It was the first time in my history of playing that I looted a Working Stiffs Store and saw not 1 Forge Ahead magazine.

Southern Farming magazines were even worse with 0 points into Living Off The Land. I didn't see any at all, and I hit every last farm in the Pine Forest and even raided all the houses in the big neighborhood with the hospital.

I created a new game and this time put 1 point into Advanced Engineering. The difference was like night and day. I started finding Forge Ahead magazines in all the places they should be, including the Working Stiffs Store, and by the end of the in game day I'd gotten enough to build a dew collector, forge, and was only 2 magazines short from a workbench.

It was the same with Southern Farming, but to a lesser degree. I was able to find them in the places that they should be, versus seeing none at all with 0 points.

So, from my testing, it looks like as of current the player MUST invest at least 1 point into Southern Farming if they want any hope of finding those magazines (just like a point must now be invested into an armor talent in order to get Armored Up magazines to drop). A player DOESN'T have to invest any points into Advanced Engineering to get Forge Ahead magazines to drop, but it will be a very, VERY slow process in acquiring them.

 

[Vaeliorin]

You don't need perk points in an armor talent for Armored Up to drop. I have 0 points in any armor talents and can make Q3 armor. I haven't bothered, but I can.

 

[Paiper Zombee]

You don't need perk points in an armor talent for Armored Up to drop. I have 0 points in any armor talents and can make Q3 armor. I haven't bothered, but I can.

You must have EXTREMELY good luck then. I play on a server with others and made the mistake of not investing into any of the armor talents. Got ready to do the Burnt Forest badge and realized that I could not meet the "Wear one non-primitive armor" requirement because I had 0 Armored Up books and had not found any other armor pieces (i.e. gloves, shoes, etc) period.

Took this into solo testing and got the same result. I saw 0 books drop and saw 0 armor pieces drop. Slapped a point into medium armor and suddenly Armored Up books started showing up, as well as armor pieces.

I even asked the others I play with on the server if you now needed to put a point into an armor to see Armored Up magazines drop, and they said yes, as they'd dealt with the same lack of magazine issue without points. So that's 4 other people who have witnessed the same thing as me.

 

[Vaeliorin]

You must have EXTREMELY good luck then. I play on a server with others and made the mistake of not investing into any of the armor talents. Got ready to do the Burnt Forest badge and realized that I could not meet the "Wear one non-primitive armor" requirement because I had 0 Armored Up books and had not found any other armor pieces (i.e. gloves, shoes, etc) period.

Took this into solo testing and got the same result. I saw 0 books drop and saw 0 armor pieces drop. Slapped a point into medium armor and suddenly Armored Up books started showing up, as well as armor pieces.

I even asked the others I play with on the server if you now needed to put a point into an armor to see Armored Up magazines drop, and they said yes, as they'd dealt with the same lack of magazine issue without points. So that's 4 other people who have witnessed the same thing as me.

Well, I can craft Tier 3 Q6 of everything I specced into, so it's just a matter of time. They're a lot less common than they used to be.

 

[Riamus]

Good to know that loot and trader stages are separate and the two do not affect one another. So that is an alternative if one has the money to purchase them.



I was able to do some focused testing on this and came away with this result. With 0 points in Advanced Engineering my drop rate for Forge Ahead magazines was horrible. In the space of an in game day I was able to find a total of 3 magazines. I kept my search to the Pine Forest on the Navazgane map and hit every location I knew of that had the potential to yield magazines. I hit houses, construction sites, the Trader, and even went through the Working Stiffs store and looted everything. It was the first time in my history of playing that I looted a Working Stiffs Store and saw not 1 Forge Ahead magazine.

Southern Farming magazines were even worse with 0 points into Living Off The Land. I didn't see any at all, and I hit every last farm in the Pine Forest and even raided all the houses in the big neighborhood with the hospital.

I created a new game and this time put 1 point into Advanced Engineering. The difference was like night and day. I started finding Forge Ahead magazines in all the places they should be, including the Working Stiffs Store, and by the end of the in game day I'd gotten enough to build a dew collector, forge, and was only 2 magazines short from a workbench.

It was the same with Southern Farming, but to a lesser degree. I was able to find them in the places that they should be, versus seeing none at all with 0 points.

So, from my testing, it looks like as of current the player MUST invest at least 1 point into Southern Farming if they want any hope of finding those magazines (just like a point must now be invested into an armor talent in order to get Armored Up magazines to drop). A player DOESN'T have to invest any points into Advanced Engineering to get Forge Ahead magazines to drop, but it will be a very, VERY slow process in acquiring them.

Seems bad luck for you or bad choice of locations to look. I don't even try to look for them and I find them regularly without any points in that. I've already maxed southern farming. I just hit day 5, but I had maxed it a while back. I am on 2 hour days, but I also haven't spent a lot of time scavenging or questing as I've been doing other things for a lot of that. I'm not sure how many forge ahead magazines I've found, but it's enough to be almost to cement mixers.

I have 0 points in advanced engineering, and 0 points in living off the land. I have 0 points in any armor and can currently craft Q1 regular armor and find armor and armor parts. I've found many armor pieces - probably around 15, and again, I just hit day 5 without doing a significant amount of scavenging. So this is direct proof that you don't need to invest points to get the magazines. I haven't said that investing points will not increase your chances to get them. Obviously it will, because that's how it has been ever since they added magazines. But it isn't necessary. If you feel it's too low a chance to find them, then put points into those. There isn't anything wrong with choosing to do that. I'm just making sure it's clear that you don't have to do so and can still get the magazines.

 

[Paiper Zombee]

Well, I can craft Tier 3 Q6 of everything I specced into, so it's just a matter of time. They're a lot less common than they used to be.

When you say "specced" are you referring to having put points into the other talent trees outside of the general tree, or did you put points into an armor talent?

Seems bad luck for you or bad choice of locations to look. I don't even try to look for them and I find them regularly without any points in that. I've already maxed southern farming. I just hit day 5, but I had maxed it a while back. I am on 2 hour days, but I also haven't spent a lot of time scavenging or questing as I've been doing other things for a lot of that. I'm not sure how many forge ahead magazines I've found, but it's enough to be almost to cement mixers.

I have 0 points in advanced engineering, and 0 points in living off the land. I have 0 points in any armor and can currently craft Q1 regular armor and find armor and armor parts. I've found many armor pieces - probably around 15, and again, I just hit day 5 without doing a significant amount of scavenging. So this is direct proof that you don't need to invest points to get the magazines. I haven't said that investing points will not increase your chances to get them. Obviously it will, because that's how it has been ever since they added magazines. But it isn't necessary. If you feel it's too low a chance to find them, then put points into those. There isn't anything wrong with choosing to do that. I'm just making sure it's clear that you don't have to do so and can still get the magazines.

It just must be bad luck then, because I've been on this game since A18, am pretty familiar with it, and know where I should be looking to find what I'm looking for.

You've got your proof through your play and I've got my proof through my play and testing. And my proof says that you DO need to put points into Living Off The Land and Armored Up to even get the magazines to drop. Forge Ahead WILL drop without points into Advanced Engineering, but it's rare and very slow going. You won't be able to convince me otherwise because I've experienced what I have, and I won't be able to convince you otherwise because you've experienced what you have. I think it's best to just leave it at that and I'm glad your experience has NOT been the same as mine or those that I play with.

 

[Riamus]

When you say "specced" are you referring to having put points into the other talent trees outside of the general tree, or did you put points into an armor talent?




It just must be bad luck then, because I've been on this game since A18, am pretty familiar with it, and know where I should be looking to find what I'm looking for.

You've got your proof through your play and I've got my proof through my play and testing. And my proof says that you DO need to put points into Living Off The Land and Armored Up to even get the magazines to drop. Forge Ahead WILL drop without points into Advanced Engineering, but it's rare and very slow going. You won't be able to convince me otherwise because I've experienced what I have, and I won't be able to convince you otherwise because you've experienced what you have. I think it's best to just leave it at that and I'm glad your experience has NOT been the same as mine or those that I play with.

All you have to do is look at the XML. I gave you two examples with forge ahead. Both cement mixers and forges have 75% unmodified drop rate for forge ahead. I don't feel like pulling up every example from there to prove things, but it is easy enough to take a look and see for yourself. In any case, RNG can make you get no drops of something. It can't make you get drops if it's not possible to get drops. So it's pretty obvious you don't need the perks to get drops or I couldn't get them.

 

[Vaeliorin]

When you say "specced" are you referring to having put points into the other talent trees outside of the general tree, or did you put points into an armor talent?

Yes, the things that I've put points into. I can make Q6 Steel Spear, Motor Tools, Impact Driver, etc. Only point I have in general are Living of the Land and Cooking