PC How do I put this?...Rollback please?!?!?! FUN PIMPS! Whyyyyyy?!?!?!

[meganoth]

I've never liked that argument. If there were sources of oil, honey, or gas out in the world that you could, theoretically, collect with a container then you can be sure people would have complained about the absence of those hypothetical containers. Jars are a completely different (IMO) thing because they could be used to collect water from the world. Games, survival games in particular, should strive for as much realism as possible.... and to have a game where you can see bodies of water that you can drink from, but for some reason can't collect feels very removed from reality.

That said, I'm not really all that opposed to their removal; water was far too easy to collect. But lets be honest about it, they were removed to make water more scarce.... not because "that's how everything else works"

The removal of jars, and the inability to get water from a lake are **independent** changes. If TFP wanted to change the game so you could collect water, then you would instead of drinking it directly get 10 **jars** of water into your hand directly (or into the inventory). Still no empty water jars in the game, but you would get water from a lake.

 

[Kalen]

The removal of jars, and the inability to get water from a lake are **independent** changes. If TFP wanted to change the game so you could collect water, then you would instead of drinking it directly get 10 **jars** of water into your hand directly (or into the inventory). Still no empty water jars in the game, but you would get water from a lake.

Exactly... thats kind of my point. If the issue was simply consistent in-game use of containers, then they would've done exactly what you just said. The removal of jars was to make water more scarce.

 

[theFlu]

The removal of jars was to make water more scarce.

I'd say dear meganoth is hammering the point: "The removal of the ability to gather water from a lake was to make water more scarce." It sounds the same to a lot of people, but it isn't. I consider them the same, as they're two parts of the same change, but I can recognize they're not.

 

[meganoth]

Exactly... thats kind of my point. If the issue was simply consistent in-game use of containers, then they would've done exactly what you just said. The removal of jars was to make water more scarce.

Nope. What I am saying is that there were two independant changes. One was to remove empty jars (Result: No more containers), one other was to remove the ability to get water from a lake (Result: not so easy to get at water). To make water scarce they would have only needed to make the latter change. Yes, you can do the latter change even with empty jars still in the game.

Since they did both changes, we could speculate about their reasons, or simply believe what the devs said, or we could not care much about that. Maybe you misunderstood, but in the post you replied to I did not speak about their motivations. I simply said that other containers in this AND other games have been abstracted away and nobody cares.

But probably because they have no better arguments people post nonsense like "Eat your glass jars and cans with the food and water I guess eh?". And I have to answer: Sorry, your backpack has been dripping oil and honey for ages and you didn't notice that? Learn what abstraction in a game means.

 

[Kalen]

Maybe you misunderstood, but in the post you replied to I did not speak about their motivations. I simply said that other containers in this AND other games have been abstracted away and nobody cares.

Fair enough.... but, like I originally said, nobody cares about the abstraction of other containers is because no other resource was sitting in the world, like water, begging to be collected. If there were pools of gas or pools of oil lying about, you'd probably get the same complaints.

 

[meganoth]

Fair enough.... but, like I originally said, nobody cares about the abstraction of other containers is because no other resource was sitting in the world, like water, begging to be collected. If there were pools of gas or pools of oil lying about, you'd probably get the same complaints.

I agree. And there have been complaints about this. "Why can't I get water from a pool?" puts the finger at an issue I can understand. While "Why does a jar vanish when I drink tea?" is a totally different issue. And sorry, I can only line up the quote I posted above with the later issue, not the former.

Are people who ask the latter just befuddled about the issues and really mean the former? Or do they just repeat what some youtube guy said because it sounds funny? I don't know.

 

[theFlu]

Are people who ask the latter just befuddled about the issues and really mean the former?

Yes. From a player PoV, "removal of jars" was the change that "caused them not be able to use lake water". So anyone who complains about "removal of jars" may be complaining about the removal of the water gathering. For a person who just "experiences the game", they are the SAME thing.

Over time I've seen plenty of people who obviously complain about the gathering getting lumped into the "jar sim" -complaint. As the player/complainer, it feels like gaslighting, and with the frequency I've observed it happen here, it looks like intentional gaslighting.

I could go into remedies, like steelmanning and/or actually just reading and empathy, but I know my avatar is aggravating enough not to expect any result from that. So I won't, do with that what you will.

 

[Riamus]

There are certainly people who lump the two together... "I want glass jars back [because I want to get water easily]." But there are also a lot of people who want jars for other reasons- realism, immersion, etc.

Either way, TFP didn't want empty containers. That was a separate motivation than trying to make water more difficult to obtain. No matter how they chose to deal with the ease of getting water, they would still have removed empty jars (and cans).

 

[Rotor]

Yep, one more time....."it is not about the JARS"

 

[Lax]

Buckets are still available to collect water from lakes and other water sources.

Using the Water Purifier Mod still allows you to have "unlimited" water, just not in jars.

After having 4 Dew Collectors all tricked out with Gatherers and Tarps, you still have more water than you will ever need, even for glue production.

Water is still plentiful in the game, just not like before. So what's the problem?

 

[Rotor]

Buckets are still available to collect water from lakes and other water sources.

Hmm, Without mod for boiling? I may have missed an update there.

Using the Water Purifier Mod still allows you to have "unlimited" water, just not in jars.

Interesting, and this is readily available without questing or trader use? Again, another miss by me.

After having 4 Dew Collectors all tricked out with Gatherers and Tarps, you still have more water than you will ever need, even for glue production.

Since it no longer needs a filter, then yeah, this probably the most viable. I may still use a heat removal mod....because is stupid IMO.

Water is still plentiful in the game, just not like before. So what's the problem?

Cant go to lake and pick it up for boiling, unless the bucket is now the use. Again, I may have missed it.

 

[Rotor]

Sorry, and before the "...it is a game..." crowd come charging in like the Rohirim!...It is not about realism, but immersion. And, again unless it is "fixed" with buckets, ALL THAT water and I cant pick it up and boil it? Anyways, it has been rehashed million times over.

 

[Lax]

If you collect water with a bucket, pour it into one of the building block containers, then use the Water Purifier Mod, you now have an unlimited supply of drinking water at the convenient location of your base.

 

[theFlu]

Anyways, it has been rehashed million times over.

Ye, funny how any mention of the jars still turns into full dissertations of the topic ... someone should really make that a linkable resource

 

[Rotor]

PC Post in thread 'What was the point of the water change?'

Sep 24, 2023

There is no intent for long-term water scarcity. It is something that is intended for the player to solve in the early game. . I have no idea what you mean by “duct tape doesn’t matter, or any other recipe” so I don’t know if you understood me or not.

I was trying to envision what long-term water scarcity goals might have been. Limiting duct tape is what I hear other players talk about, but I didn't know if that was TFP's goal. If you say there's not a long-term scarcity goal, then nobody is trying to limit duct tape, or at least not trying to use water to limit it.

I like to...

• zztong

• 

ZZtong put it better than I could way back.

Post automatically merged: Monday at 5:14 PM

Ye, funny how any mention of the jars still turns into full dissertations of the topic ... someone should really make that a linkable resource

Ya, Jars were the evil that were bringing down the game , yet here we are hehe.

 

[Riamus]

Hmm, Without mod for boiling? I may have missed an update there.



Interesting, and this is readily available without questing or trader use? Again, another miss by me.


Since it no longer needs a filter, then yeah, this probably the most viable. I may still use a heat removal mod....because is stupid IMO.



Cant go to lake and pick it up for boiling, unless the bucket is now the use. Again, I may have missed it.

You can't boil water from a bucket. The only option for using the bucket is to place water somewhere and drink from it. You can't use it for crafting/cooking. The helmet mod can be found (it is a bit uncommon) and doesn't need a trader or quest. I don't think I've ever even seen it from the trader.

The dew collectors aren't bad. Especially with the mods installed (but if you want to avoid traders, you can't use those unless you mod the game or use the creative menu). With mods installed, you can usually get by with 1 dew collector per player unless you are crafting a LOT of stuff with duct tape. If you are, you just scale up a bit. Without mods installed, you need around 2-3 per person except when doing a ton of crafting with duct tape. As far as heat goes, it only generates while water is being "generated" and considering just about anything you do increases heat, you're likely to get screamers about as often, whether you use no dew collectors, 1 dew collector, or 100 dew collectors. The only time it really makes any difference (imo) is if you rarely use the workstations or leave them running. In that case, you'll see more screamers than without the dew collectors. But if you're often using campfires and forges and stuff, you're likely to get screamers just as often since they can't spawn more than once per 21 real-time minutes in the same area and the other workstations are going to push the heap up enough all on their own.

 

[P0yzin]

I find it hilarious that ya'll think the most "debatable" change after how this thread started, is now your incessant back and forth about "water jars". I'm sorry but ya'll have entirely missed the point here. Lol. And the ones arguing about something as miniscule as the water jars are literally the people I saw yelling at everyone else for their "invalid opinions" and yet here you same guys are thinking the change on water jars is the big deal and want it to go on and on and on. SMH
It's ironic isn't it. This is also why I can tell almost instantly about people with how certain individuals respond to someone's opinion. Generally the ones calling others opinions "invalid" are the ones that have the most tedious and unambiguous comments. Lol. It's hilarious.

Anyway...this whole disappointment in the new update and discussions on it was NOT about the change on the water jars. How ya'll have devolved it to such is beyond me. It shows that you aren't paying attention to what matters to us. That is NOT what changed the entire game nor did the Storms Brewing update get all of its disappointing comments from...water jars....of all things... I swear.

Most of us could CARE LESS about the water jars ok???? The changes to go into a "generic tedious funless" title is the problem.
Ridiculous badges stop the exploration, storms are simply time wasters, no optimization, no bandits, can't even build in another area of the map unless you literally have ALL of the previous tedious quests in some nonsensical badge tree done, new zombies...arent really that new...nor zombies...paid pointless cosmetic dlc's ....(which were previously promised would never occur btw).... etc...etc....

Promises made....none kept.... yet more weird things added that nobody asked for. Sorry but I'm literally getting to the point of not recommending this title to people anymore because they will simply be disappointed at the lack of freedom now and time wasters.

I also should NOT be expected to turn off all changes or add mods to make it an enjoyable experience. It used to be enjoyable without having to change anything. Default Vanilla 7DTD used to be fun! Now...I almost feel I HAVE to run overhaul mods to enjoy it again. It's a sad day for a title when that starts happening.

 

[Kalen]

Most of us could CARE LESS about the water jars ok????

I think you meant couldn't care less

You said you've got 3k hours played, right? Well, I'd say you got your money's worth, no?

 

[Suxar]

It simply confounds me how many people are not able to grasp this simple fact when almost all games do similar simplifications, outside of simulations.

What exactly is confusing you? In a sense, it's normal human behavior. People have this strange thing called a habit. A person has played for 5/10/15 thousand hours and has gotten used to the fact that to get water, you need a puddle and cans. And then after such a long time, they tell him: "there are no more cans." That's it, the person is immediately at a dead end and does not understand what to do next, he is not used to it.

You can compare this with a more understandable everyday situation. Let's say that throughout your childhood, you made all your trips with your father in his car, when you grew up, you bought your own car and still drive it. And, for example, at the age of 40, this car disappears. For you, this will be a shock, because you do not know how to move around any other way, even paying for public transport will be stressful.

A similar situation has developed with banks, that's all.

 

[Krougal]

FFS! 2 years later and the debate over water jars continues to rage...

While I don't agree with a lot of OPs points or what this discussion has devolved into, I agree this update sucks.
Like some other recent post, they just finished ripping the soul out of this game. It is just another bland RPG in a sea of bland RPGs, but then that is beating a dead horse as well.