PC The Duke, Noah, and the story so far

[khzmusik]

Sure, and people were trying to interact with you on a reasonable level, and then you attacked them by saying that they were being apologists for the possibly intentional racism in the game.  Once you do that, people tend to not take you seriously anymore.

I was not trying to attack anyone. Depending on the response, I did say that they may be understandably trying to defend TFP, or that they were unintentionally defending the inclusion of unintentional racial stereotypes in the game. (I always explicitly said that it I did not believe it was intentional on TFP's part.)

A couple of times, people invented hypotheticals specifically so racial stereotypes could remain in the game, and I definitely questioned those decisions pretty hard. But I did not mean to imply those people were bad people, I was trying to question their decisions under the assumption that they weren't bad people.

If anyone here thought I was personally attacking them, or calling them intentionally racist or something, then I'm sorry for that. It wasn't what I was trying to do.

EDIT: As for the rest - I've always made it very clear that I was only reacting to what is currently in the game files, and that the final story is not in the game yet. In fact, that was the whole point. If all this was already released, the discussion would be moot, because TFP would not have any chance to adopt to feedback.

Having said that, all of what I listed is currently in the game files. I quoted the relevant game files in an earlier post, but there are many more, perhaps 100 or so, and they are as I described. I listed them in the first post in this thread, though most are hidden spoilers in the post. They confirm what I said in each one of my bullet points - at least for now.

 

[Roland]

So Noahs White River is something that seems to have been founded after the apocalypse event. Okay, it means this is not an indication of alternate history.

It is pretty obvious to me that the world depicted in 7 Days to Die (even the pre-apocalyptic world) is an alternate timeline/universe to our world. It will be interesting to see if TFP explicitly makes it clear that the history of this world is different than ours. If they do then maybe we can take a sigh of relief that any Casino Indians depicted are just fantasy alternate reality concoctions and not really a realistic depiction of Native Americans of our own world.

 

[Arez]

Obviously anyone in an alternate timeline won't know he is in one

The Doctor would know.

And not Doctor Jen.

Doctor Who.

It is pretty obvious to me that the world depicted in 7 Days to Die (even the pre-apocalyptic world) is an alternate timeline/universe to our world. 

Yup! That is exactly my reasoning for CRTs and old car models being so prevalent in the year 2034. 

 

[theFlu]

If this is for real:

then I'm sorry for that. It wasn't what I was trying to do.

Then stop doing this:

I did say that they may be understandably trying to defend TFP, or that they were unintentionally defending the inclusion of unintentional racial stereotypes in the game.

That is similar, if not the same as, the "unconscious bias" -nonsense that pervades the politically correct academics. We're aware of our own "racism" to the extent it matters to anyone; implying we can't see it is just insulting. It implies we don't understand. We do, we just disagree if it matters; and we don't have a guilty conscience over it, so trying to shame us over it just annoys everyone.

Story tropes, even the "negative racial ones", are fine. They're an easy way for a setup, as the work has already been done by whatever "works" established the trope. They won't work alone, a good story will need some hooks and twists, and that's where the piece can go from good art to pick-an-ist propaganda. Atm, we only have the "existence of the trope"; that alone isn't bad. So the removal of it isn't any kind of automatic good.

 

[meganoth]

I was not trying to attack anyone. Depending on the response, I did say that they may be understandably trying to defend TFP, or that they were unintentionally defending the inclusion of unintentional racial stereotypes in the game. (I always explicitly said that it I did not believe it was intentional on TFP's part.)

A couple of times, people invented hypotheticals specifically so racial stereotypes could remain in the game, and I definitely questioned those decisions pretty hard. But I did not mean to imply those people were bad people, I was trying to question their decisions under the assumption that they weren't bad people.

If anyone here thought I was personally attacking them, or calling them intentionally racist or something, then I'm sorry for that. It wasn't what I was trying to do.

EDIT: As for the rest - I've always made it very clear that I was only reacting to what is currently in the game files, and that the final story is not in the game yet. In fact, that was the whole point. If all this was already released, the discussion would be moot, because TFP would not have any chance to adopt to feedback.

Having said that, all of what I listed is currently in the game files. I quoted the relevant game files in an earlier post, but there are many more, perhaps 100 or so, and they are as I described. I listed them in the first post in this thread, though most are hidden spoilers in the post. They confirm what I said in each one of my bullet points - at least for now.

My bad, I actually forgot about that information in your first post, it was posted 2 weeks ago, a long time for a discussion. And yes, I don't see any satire in there, yet. But again, that doesn't mean it couldn't be meant as one, and certainly you seem to agree that the place, area or county Navezgane is pure invention. That as well is absolutely inconclusive, the name could have come up after the apocalypse or it was just created for this game without any connection to reality.

I also reread the post where you mentioned that the story may be problematic, though I am adding the "may" here, it isn't in your post and I think that is the main problem here.

Even though your knowledge of the story comes from small tidbits and unconnected texts in the game files you act like nothing they could do when implementing that story could make it into anything that would work. Not making it a satire, not some revelation that it was the duke that was the good guy in the end, nothing. You act like you already know the story and nothing left out for now can make that story be viewed in a different light, and you threaten boycott of the game if they don't change. And that there is the point where you prematurely jumped to conclusions you could not really make. 

You are also wrong that the story, if it were problematic and already in the game, would be immutable and there would be no chance to adopt feedback. For example the satire in the movie starship troopers amounts to probably less than 5 minutes of the whole movie. Cut that out and the tone of that movie would completely change. Or look at how 7d2d has changed itself each alpha. You really think they are not able to throw out or change stuff when some "confused" posters claim that is all TFP has done for the last 4 years?

Now sure, the later the change, the more expensive or difficult to do. But I'll give you one example that would change the situation in one simple patch, if it were exactly like you think it is: Add some information the player gets when confronting or killing the Duke that his claim to be of indian heritage is fake and he is really Jim Dallas from Denver who gave himself a fake identity in the confusion after the apocalypse and he payed or blackmailed the traders to support his story. A bit farfetched, sure, but we are playing a game where demonesque zombies roam the earth and TFP never looked for anything more than comic-book logic and to make their name into their motto, right?

So apart from jumping the gun I'd say it is good you mentioned it, but it is likely something that may be forgotten again at the time they turn to implementing the story. Mentioning it again directly when they say they are now working on the story may be useful (and I would assume this would happen after the release of the bandit update). Just saying.

 

[khzmusik]

EDIT: Never mind, not worth it. (Can I just delete my own post on these forums? Also, how do I block users?)

 

[khzmusik]

Even though your knowledge of the story comes from small tidbits and unconnected texts in the game files you act like nothing they could do when implementing that story could make it into anything that would work. Not making it a satire, not some revelation that it was the duke that was the good guy in the end, nothing. You act like you already know the story and nothing left out for now can make that story be viewed in a different light, and you threaten boycott of the game if they don't change.

I certainly did not say that they could not make it work. My exact words were "So, I really hope that TFP drop this story, or at least make major revisions to it. It's entirely possible that they will..."

The things you mentioned are things that I would say are "major revisions" since they change the flavor of the entire story line.

And, saying that I can't actively recommend it to my family and friends does not amount to "threaten[ing] a boycott of the game." You can recommend it to your family and friends, I won't try to stop you. Heck, my family and friends could pick it up on their own, and I wouldn't try to stop them either.

EDIT: I should probably be very clear about this. If TFP do not make any changes to the story line, and the negative racial stereotypes remain in the game without any kind of criticism or satire, then I think the proper response is to mod them out of the game.

That way players who don't want to play a game with racial stereotypes in it don't have to. But those that believe the negative racial stereotypes are perfectly fine, won't get angry that they were removed.

 

[theFlu]

EDIT: Never mind, not worth it.

I tend to agree, we ain't gonna convince one another. But, I appreciate the relatively open exchange, thanks

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

Could the proposed protagonist and antagonist be deceased? Or never have existed at all. 

From the trader dialog
it doesn't seem like they get any face to face time, unless with subordinates, and each 

has a radio which infers remote communication, and each is secluded. So they just get orders.

It kind of reminds me of the Matrix 1999 reloaded 2003, No one knew, the true
time in history. Didn't know that they were recycled clones-ish. And didn't
realize that the puppet master, The Architect just gave them enough story to
keep them busy and confused, while he conducted his experiments to see what
equation added up to.

OR could it be like Dark City 1998. Which if you dissect it is quite similar in
plot of the Matrix, or actually the Matrix is quite similar in plot to Dark City.

Smith told Morpheus the only time the human race accepted the programming

was when there was conflict. So maybe the conflict story is an elaborate fabrication

and there is something else at play.

 

[khzmusik]

Could the proposed protagonist and antagonist be deceased? Or never have existed at all.

That is a very interesting proposition.

It might even explain the stereotypes. If someone wants to keep people in Navezgane fighting among themselves, they would want to invent fictional characters that are easily recognizable negative stereotypes. (The same thing happens in real-life war propaganda.)

The "corrupt casino Indian" and "White settler stealing Native land" tropes would fit the bill quite nicely.

But, I doubt that will happen. There are a couple of times where TFP have said either the Duke or Noah will be the "final boss" of the game (depending on player choices).

It's still an interesting twist though.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

The thought comes from part of my childhood. Bad man hit my hand. There was

an instigator that wanted to see confusion and conflict, so he would challenge

one of two people to hit his hand, then hit the other person. They would then

say he hit you and, if you were foolish enough you fought and the instigator

had the real power.

 

[meganoth]

I certainly did not say that they could not make it work. My exact words were "So, I really hope that TFP drop this story, or at least make major revisions to it. It's entirely possible that they will..."

The things you mentioned are things that I would say are "major revisions" since they change the flavor of the entire story line.

My major point though was that we don't know enough to say that a revision is needed at all. Usually developers do not spoil the whole story, especially when there are surprises planned. But nevermind, the point is really not that important.

And, saying that I can't actively recommend it to my family and friends does not amount to "threaten[ing] a boycott of the game." You can recommend it to your family and friends, I won't try to stop you. Heck, my family and friends could pick it up on their own, and I wouldn't try to stop them either.

As far as I know a "boycott" can be done by a single person, right? I didn't mean a public call for boycotting the game. 

EDIT: I should probably be very clear about this. If TFP do not make any changes to the story line, and the negative racial stereotypes remain in the game without any kind of criticism or satire, then I think the proper response is to mod them out of the game.

That way players who don't want to play a game with racial stereotypes in it don't have to. But those that believe the negative racial stereotypes are perfectly fine, won't get angry that they were removed.

 

[Javabean867]

 That way players who don't want to play a game with racial stereotypes in it don't have to. But those that believe the negative racial stereotypes are perfectly fine, won't get angry that they were removed.

And there you go again.  'Everyone who disagrees with me is a racist.'  What's next calling us all @%$#ler lovers?  Quit this nonsense amd people will take you seriously.

You also have not honestly interacted with anyone's points or criticisms they have given you.  You just attack everyone else as being a racist.  You double and triple down on it.  Have you thought for a moment, 'what if I'm the closeted racist?' Or 'am I the boy crying wolf???'  

 

[khzmusik]

And there you go again.  'Everyone who disagrees with me is a racist.'  What's next calling us all @%$#ler lovers?  Quit this nonsense amd people will take you seriously.

You also have not honestly interacted with anyone's points or criticisms they have given you.  You just attack everyone else as being a racist.  You double and triple down on it.  Have you thought for a moment, 'what if I'm the closeted racist?' Or 'am I the boy crying wolf???'  

I have been very, very, very clear that I do not believe anyone here is intentionally holding racist beliefs, or consciously justifying racial stereotypes.

I know from experience that both myself and others have unconscious biases. I know from experience that people tend to downplay or ignore flaws in things they love. I think what's happening here is a bit of both.

The "perfectly fine" bit was a bit sarcastic, but it was basically a quote from someone else here. It was not directed at you.

 

[theFlu]

I have been very, very, very clear that I do not believe anyone here is intentionally holding racist beliefs, or consciously justifying racial stereotypes.

I know from experience that both myself and others have unconscious biases. I know from experience that people tend to downplay or ignore flaws in things they love. I think what's happening here is a bit of both.

So, we're back at "you just don't know you're racist". Any other flaws you might want to dig out from my skull while you're in there?

Seriously, hiding behind implications isn't helping your cause. I'm starting to think you might be engaging in some black propaganda; if so, throw me a DM and I chill calling you out ...

 

[Dead Smarty]

I have been very, very, very clear that I do not believe anyone here is intentionally holding racist beliefs, or consciously justifying racial stereotypes.

I know from experience that both myself and others have unconscious biases. I know from experience that people tend to downplay or ignore flaws in things they love. I think what's happening here is a bit of both.

The "perfectly fine" bit was a bit sarcastic, but it was basically a quote from someone else here. It was not directed at you.

I think the wording can be an issue for some. I'm not native english speaking but it feels a bit "I'm sorry you feel offended" vs "Sorry I offended you". The typical political way to apologize without apologizing.

 

[khzmusik]

I think the wording can be an issue for some. I'm not native english speaking but it feels a bit "I'm sorry you feel offended" vs "Sorry I offended you". The typical political way to apologize without apologizing.

Well, let me be clear then.

If some people do not have a problem with negative racial stereotypes being in the game (unchanged, without criticism or satire), then at the very least, they are excusing racism.

I am trying to give those people the benefit of the doubt, and assuming they are not doing it intentionally.

But if a person knows they are negative racial stereotypes, and wants them to be in the game (unchanged), then that's a different story. I don't care if people like that are offended, and I have no interest in anything they have to say.

 

[Javabean867]

Well, let me be clear then.

If some people do not have a problem with negative racial stereotypes being in the game (unchanged, without criticism or satire), then at the very least, they are excusing racism.

I am trying to give those people the benefit of the doubt, and assuming they are not doing it intentionally.

But if a person knows they are negative racial stereotypes, and wants them to be in the game (unchanged), then that's a different story. I don't care if people like that are offended, and I have no interest in anything they have to say.

Once again you have doubled down on the retoric of anyone who disagrees with me is a racist.  It's not offensive in the way you think it is.

It's frustrating that you refuse to be an honest interlocutor.   We've all pointed out that you don't know the story, you don't know if any racist stereotypes are actually in the game, you don't know who the bad guys are, if there are any bad guys even.  You know as much as any non-TFP staff about the story, which is literally nothing.

That's what is offensive, you not taking the time to honestly interact with people who want to have an honest conversation.   Are you actually going to take the time to respond to the points that thoroughly debunk your stance, our are you going to double down again?  I bet you'll double down. 

 

[khzmusik]

Once again you have doubled down on the retoric of anyone who disagrees with me is a racist.  It's not offensive in the way you think it is.

It's frustrating that you refuse to be an honest interlocutor.   We've all pointed out that you don't know the story, you don't know if any racist stereotypes are actually in the game, you don't know who the bad guys are, if there are any bad guys even.  You know as much as any non-TFP staff about the story, which is literally nothing.

That's what is offensive, you not taking the time to honestly interact with people who want to have an honest conversation.   Are you actually going to take the time to respond to the points that thoroughly debunk your stance, our are you going to double down again?  I bet you'll double down. 

I literally quoted what is in the game files right now. And what is in the game files right now contains negative racial stereotypes.

This isn't my opinion. I provided links to many sources explaining how and why they are negative racial stereotypes.

If TFP change it to be satire or something, that's a different story, but what is in the game files right now is not satire.

If someone advocates keeping what is in the game files right now, then whether they intend to or not, they are saying that negative racial stereotypes should be a core part of the game. Even if the game takes places in some kind of alternate reality. Making up an alternate reality doesn't magically transform negative racial stereotypes into something other than negative racial stereotypes. At best, it is excusing those stereotypes. At worst, it could turn the game into racist propaganda.

I'm fairly certain that is not the intention of any people who suggested it. So, I was trying to point out the consequences of what they were suggesting, because I assume they aren't trying to be racist, so the consequences were unintended.

I thought I was being clear about that. If I was not, then that's my fault.

If someone thinks negative racial stereotypes are OK, that nobody should take offense to them, then they might be a racist. But I don't think anyone here is seriously saying that.

EDIT: Also I don't know what you mean by "debunk." Obviously I'm going by what is in the game files right now, and not what is in the game right now. I've never claimed to know what the final story will be, only that I hope it isn't exactly what is in there right now. So it's not that. AFAICT, nobody has denied that they are negative racial stereotypes, so it's not that either. What exactly was supposed to be "debunked?"

EDIT 2: It seems like what you're objecting to is this reply to you:

Regardless, what you're doing (intentionally or not) is justifying TFP's choice to make the bad guy be a racial stereotype. Yeah, you can invent all kinds of remote scenarios where this might be plausible, but why would you want to? The end result is that a racial stereotype is in the game, and IMHO that's not a hill to die on.

I'm reading that, and I do not think it even hints that you're a racist. Maybe it's a language barrier? Or, maybe you thought I was implying something that I wasn't trying to imply?

I did say that it wasn't necessarily intentional, and that what you were justifying was a decision of TFP, not your own - after making it clear, repeatedly, that I didn't think TFP were doing this because they are racist. I thought that would be enough to be clear that I didn't think you were trying to be racist. Maybe I was wrong.

 

[Javabean867]

I literally quoted what is in the game files right now. And what is in the game files right now contains negative racial stereotypes.

This isn't my opinion. I provided links to many sources explaining how and why they are negative racial stereotypes.

If TFP change it to be satire or something, that's a different story, but what is in the game files right now is not satire.

If someone advocates keeping what is in the game files right now, then whether they intend to or not, they are saying that negative racial stereotypes should be a core part of the game. Even if the game takes places in some kind of alternate reality. Making up an alternate reality doesn't magically transform negative racial stereotypes into something other than negative racial stereotypes. At best, it is excusing those stereotypes. At worst, it could turn the game into racist propaganda.

I'm fairly certain that is not the intention of any people who suggested it. So, I was trying to point out the consequences of what they were suggesting, because I assume they aren't trying to be racist, so the consequences were unintended.

I thought I was being clear about that. If I was not, then that's my fault.

If someone thinks negative racial stereotypes are OK, that nobody should take offense to them, then they might be a racist. But I don't think anyone here is seriously saying that.

EDIT: Also I don't know what you mean by "debunk." Obviously I'm going by what is in the game files right now, and not what is in the game right now. I've never claimed to know what the final story will be, only that I hope it isn't exactly what is in there right now. So it's not that. AFAICT, nobody has denied that they are negative racial stereotypes, so it's not that either. What exactly was supposed to be "debunked?"

And that is the problem.  The game, thus the story is not complete.  People have pointed this out repeatedly, and you have ignored it completely.  You literally have nothing of substance with the game files. The issue comes down the fact that you don't have any actual, factual knowledge of what the game's story is.  Any of the information that you gleaned from the current game files has no context.  Are the narrators reliable? Who is the bad guy?  No one actually knows.  Are there even bad guys?  Not currently, you can't point to a single person in the game that would be the bad guy. 

It's understandable to be worried about racist stereotypes.  If the Fun Pimps go full bore with a ruthless Casino Indian, that would be boring story telling.  Is it racist?  Sure, prossibably(intentionally spelled that way ), but is it intentionally so?  Not necessarily.  Should we be past racial stereotypes in media?  probably.  But there are only so many stories to tell(10 i think), and anytime you pull race from the story, you are literally white washing it.  Should we remove race from Pocahontas?  Should we pull race from Blazing Saddles?  Should they be just drug cartels, or should we specify which ones we mean when we tell a story? Race/Region/Religion/Sex/Gender/Age are all touchy subjects, but they are a part of who the characters are, and to assume that they are only included for a stereo-type is nonsense.

What it comes down to, is we can only wait until the game is released.  Until then getting yourself worked up over something you think is happening is not healthy.