Can we expand on electricity please?

[Lyalius]

I can see why single input is way easier from a coding standpoint but your base turns into a mess of power relays. It's also a little weird that power prioritizes Solar over everything so even if you are connected to a battery too it just completely ignores the battery instead of taking power from Solar and any surplus that may be needed is taken from the attached battery.

So basically this:

1. Can we get more than a single input? (There can be a definite downside like too much power to a single point causes a fire, loses durability faster, or draws in a lot of heat so you are constantly swarmed like it's blood moon until it's fixed)

2. Some kind of switch to control the power flow. So we could essentially manually swap between Solar, Battery, or Gas and do things like:

- Use Solar Bank to charge the Battery Bank and the Battery Bank run everything if we set it to do so

- Use Solar Bank to run everything while Battery recharges

- Only use Battery or Gas during the day

- Use multiple sources together to power the base (So Solar Bank + Battery to make difference or Battery + Solar to make up the difference)

3. Be able to link multiple power sources together. (ex. Link two 180w solar banks  together and get an output of 360w)

- This can also be linked with idea 1 (more than a single input) and could require more advanced knowledge and an more advanced Power Relay that we would have to craft to be able to utilize.

As it is right now to do any of the above (if even possible) you have to get real tricky with time relays (and hope they function correctly) or manually run around snipping wires.

I'll add onto this if I think of more ideas but the electricity aspect feels very unfinished and very messy. I mean just the input part alone would infinitely making a nice, neat, functional base possible instead of you needing to build a small building behind each wall for designated power purposes or dozens of delays.

 

[Dead Smarty]

Personaly I have no issues with the current system where a generator feeds the equipment or a solar pannel feeds the system while charging batteries for the dark hours. The power output is limmited so you are forced to group items, if you do this in logical groups you can reduce the heat signature by only switching on needed groups. On the other hand it doesn't matter if you leave the generators running whithout power demand since it is only using fuel for required power, in case you choose to control your equipment manualy.

I prefere to use generators over solar since gas is easy to produce where solar is expensive. Just dump a few engines in and you have all the power your need, if you need more power just set up another generator. They only need 1 open block and are barely blocking anything if on the wall or ceiling. I consider the current system as clean and simple, it's not Factorio after all

 

[Riamus]

Regarding solar and battery, split runs during the day and changes batteries while running everything. At night, batteries power everything.  So it is already basically what you are asking for that. 

Having multiple sources for power isn't a bad option, and it has been requested many times.  But I don't think it is all that important.  If anything, I would rather have them add true logic gates. 

Considering wires are no longer visible unless you hold the wire tool, it really isn't a big deal if you have to run a lot of wires anymore.

 

[zztong]

I could have sworn I've connected Solar to Battery to Load and then the Load draws from the battery, but if Solar is producing more than the Load is drawing then the Batteries recharge on the difference. Maybe my memory is faulty.

But I would enjoy being able to have a Generator kick on under certain circumstances to also charge the Battery, so multiple sources would be appreciated. Maybe the game could allow Solar to Generator to Battery to Load where the Generator only runs if Solar cannot cover the Load. This makes Battery an emergency backup.

As for complex designs, I tend to just make multiple circuits which ultimately needs multiple sources of power. It's not idea, but I don't really need a lot of circuits.

 

[Dead Smarty]

 If anything, I would rather have them add true logic gates.

My first choice as well.
Also usefull would be a setting for generators to turn on when the circuit they're connected to is unpowered, like when batteries are empty. Or options for doors to set open when powered or close when powered.

 

[Lyalius]

Personaly I have no issues with the current system where a generator feeds the equipment or a solar pannel feeds the system while charging batteries for the dark hours. The power output is limmited so you are forced to group items, if you do this in logical groups you can reduce the heat signature by only switching on needed groups. On the other hand it doesn't matter if you leave the generators running whithout power demand since it is only using fuel for required power, in case you choose to control your equipment manualy.

I prefere to use generators over solar since gas is easy to produce where solar is expensive. Just dump a few engines in and you have all the power your need, if you need more power just set up another generator. They only need 1 open block and are barely blocking anything if on the wall or ceiling. I consider the current system as clean and simple, it's not Factorio after all

I don't like it because if you want to build your own base and have a neat and tidy look you can't do so without jumping through some hoops. It doesn't have to be as complicated as Factorio but some type of logical control over it is better than what we have. Especially the lack of multiple inputs or doing something like chaining multiple sources together to make a power grid.

Regarding solar and battery, split runs during the day and changes batteries while running everything. At night, batteries power everything.  So it is already basically what you are asking for that. 

Having multiple sources for power isn't a bad option, and it has been requested many times.  But I don't think it is all that important.  If anything, I would rather have them add true logic gates. 

Considering wires are no longer visible unless you hold the wire tool, it really isn't a big deal if you have to run a lot of wires anymore.

 They don't seem to work correctly if you chain solar to battery. And the 1 for 1 means the solar energy used to charge the batteries reduces power for the rest of the base.

Seriously even two or three inputs would make way more sense than 1 input to 8 outputs. It also makes your base look a mess with all the power relays everywhere.

A power grid of sort would look near but if the devs REALLY want the 1 input then linking power together then I'd be fine with that. More power into the single Input to spread around means less power relays making your base look awful and less wires to tinker with.

And the wiring is half the problem because while it's nice we can't see them, a few of the "fixes" I could think of (i.e. base using battery not solar during the day) has to do with passively screwing with the wiring. Or making another building specifically for charging batteries.

I don't want to say I'm lazy but that level or min-max maintenance isn't something I'm a fan of. Especially when logically you could just add a switch of sorts to be like "Solar goes to this NOT this"

 

[Lyalius]

I could have sworn I've connected Solar to Battery to Load and then the Load draws from the battery, but if Solar is producing more than the Load is drawing then the Batteries recharge on the difference. Maybe my memory is faulty.

But I would enjoy being able to have a Generator kick on under certain circumstances to also charge the Battery, so multiple sources would be appreciated. Maybe the game could allow Solar to Generator to Battery to Load where the Generator only runs if Solar cannot cover the Load. This makes Battery an emergency backup.

As for complex designs, I tend to just make multiple circuits which ultimately needs multiple sources of power. It's not idea, but I don't really need a lot of circuits.

Me and a friend are trying to make a semi-fortress for fun but the issue we are having is trying to set up defenses. We set up a corner for power and then realized that the single input made designing more complicated and annoying. Now we are toying with the idea of a building behind each wall to power things (which we both hate) or burying the power delays and hoping we have enough power to the walls to place traps that work.

Both which would be unnecessary if we could just have more than one input!

Also with some testing it doesn't work like that. If you connect Solar to Battery to Traps and have enough traps Battery can handle then it's pretty obvious as since solar produces less than batteries some traps won't work.

My first choice as well.
Also usefull would be a setting for generators to turn on when the circuit they're connected to is unpowered, like when batteries are empty. Or options for doors to set open when powered or close when powered.

See that's what I wanted to do to beging with. Solar run the show during the day, batteries at night but the timer relay doesn't seem to work correctly and everthing draws power from solar first and ignores batteries until nighttime.

A better switch of some kind would definitely help with funneling power the way you want it.

 

[zztong]

Also with some testing it doesn't work like that. If you connect Solar to Battery to Traps and have enough traps Battery can handle then it's pretty obvious as since solar produces less than batteries some traps won't work.

I see. I've probably never built a circuit that needed more than my Solar could produce. I would have seen that as an unsustainable circuit and made other plans, but more likely is I just didn't use as many devices as you're using.

I generally make an alarm circuit for my home base with the idea that it will run 24x7. If I'm feeling froggy there might be a motion sensor near a door that controls a trap, like spinning blades.

I generally make a defensive circuit for either a home base or a horde base that is activated manually, either by a switch near the intended defensive point or by just turning on a generator. As it doesn't run 24x7, it uses very little fuel.

If I'm playing a game where I fight hordes out in the open then I might make a defensive circuit late game and kite the zombies through it. It could be generator powered as chunks of the circuit would be exposed and I wouldn't want zombie-fighting chaos to claim a solar bank.

 

[FramFramson]

Something no one's mentioned yet, but which comes up fairly often: More powered blocks in general. Advanced versions of workstations which can be run off electricity would be amazing and give us more to do later in the game.

Alternatively, at least add hooks to the code to allow modders to make new workstations which only work when powered by electricity.

 

[OndeTv]

Electricity is at the moment a Parent (generator) -> consumer chain, where each chain can only have 1 parent.

Parents are solar banks and generator banks.

Battery banks are oddly placed somewhere between being a pseudo parent (can give power), but also being a consumer (can consume power to charge batteries).

What i would like to see is a "super parent" block, into which you can chain multiple parents, properly see their input contribution and the total of all current inputs.

Currently (V1.2 b27), with the revamp of skills, loot and removal of solar cells from anything but traders, solar power is almost a forgotten thing unless you game the traders by growing supercorn or produce stacks of certain items and possibly even cheese the player vendor machines. Sure, you can get them without cheese, but at the point you start thinking of getting them, chances are you are pretty much done with the game anyway as in you are probably at day 100+, have all main skills you care about, have your base in steel or working on it and have generally trivialized horde nights.

Having solar cells come from other sources as in the past - even if rarely so - would once again make them useful.

Another thing is a solar bank full of T6 solar cells (still ~37k dukes with enforcer glasses, cigar and barter skills per cell) only provides 180W, whereas a rather easily obtainable fuel generator with 6 engines (which have no tiers and are rather easy to salvage) generates more total power.

There is the issue of gas of course, which isn't really abundant until you have your chemistry station. But once again in the current version, chances are you have your chemistry station before you have any useful means of solar energy - catch 22 right there.

Lastly, the need for logical gates - or rather being able to build logical gates. A simple transistor block. It is basically already in the game, just not in a usable form. The motion sensor is kind of a transistor: Power flows on input, and the input is the sensor input. What we need in addition is a block making power flow between 2 points if a third point is powered.

To summarize:

- A super parent block, merging multiple parents

- A transistor type block

- A rethink of solar cell availability

 

[Suxar]

My first choice as well.
Also usefull would be a setting for generators to turn on when the circuit they're connected to is unpowered, like when batteries are empty. Or options for doors to set open when powered or close when powered.

Fuel is consumed by the generator depending on the load. Therefore, turning it on or off does not matter. No load - no fuel consumption.

- A rethink of solar cell availability

I agree with this. And there are essentially no T6 elements in the game anymore, except for airdrop. The merchant sells a maximum of T5.

 

[OndeTv]

The merchant sells a maximum of T5.

This is untrue in relation to solar cells. However, i believe either your game stage or your quest tier has to be high enough for them to start showing up.

Since solar cells are so expensive in general, i have only bought T6 versions in my current playthrough. I currently have 7 of them = 1 full bank and 1 of 6 for another). However, by the time i had the first 4 (enough to substitute my generator) i basically had no need of them other than the personal goal of doing it for the sake of completeness.

I do believe i have seen T6 versions of other things on traders as well, but this i am not 100% sure of as at this point i have way more legendary components than i need. Speaking of legendary components: This system actually also needs a rethink for early stages. Currently i can not think of a scenario where a player would ever make a T6 stone axe because of early legendary component availability or lack thereof.

 

[OndeTv]

Here's a few in game examples both as reply to the above and to the thread content in general (sorry for the picture spam, but each provide value to the context). The game is a new world made in V1.2 b27, no mods, default settings except for zombie count set to 64. The world is the smallest pregen.

Trader with T6 cells (price is with max barter skills and T5 enforcer glasses+cigar):

Here is the current gamestage this inventory is from (day 152):

Here is my base setup from the outside. This is shown for electricity context:

A closer look on the defense setup and electricity consumers:

Electric fences going vertical x 6

Spotlights on the roof corners x 2

SMG turrets x 4

Shotgun turrent (roof back, not visible) x 1

Other side of the setup showing the sledging pit and an uninvited guest:

The wiring setup:

Switches for:

- Indoor lighting (far left, not in picture)

- Spotlights on a timer relay (on from 21:30 to 05:00)

- Roof shotgun turret (vulture control)

- Electric fences

- Front SMG turrets

Example of a standard generator bank with 6 no-tier engines, providing up to 300W and available early game:

Example of full T6 slotted solar bank, more or less only available after the game has become trivial, driving home the point of a rethink:

Excuse me for the cluttered inventory. I had been digging tunnels in the wasteland for night piñata bear/dire wolf hunting for sport, and just rushed back home to take these shots.

I almost forgot the most important part: Why we need a "Super parent" block to chain multiple parents into.

Currently my main power consumers are the SMG turrets. However, due to them being bullet sponges and power hungry, i only turn them on just before horde night ends. This for 2 reasons:

- they can not retain ammo for a full horde night because they are simply not efficient enough by themselves

- they help me mop up the remainder of the horde before loot bag timers expire (another problem mentioned in great detail under general support)

To make this defence more efficient (instead of me sniping every electrified zed during the night) would be more turrets and in groups paired with blade traps, dart traps and whatnot. But doing this also quickly exceeds the power limit of a single parent chain (especially if solar due to the 120W less output compared to a generator) and just becomes a general mess.

This makes enthusiast builders across the game sad in general, and wastes a good deal of creativity simply because it is a hassle that ought not to be there in the first place.

 

[Dead Smarty]

Currently i can not think of a scenario where a player would ever make a T6 stone axe because of early legendary component availability or lack thereof.

It's an easy to repair multitool, so yeah... I wasted a legendary component on it. Still using it at day 100+.

(Then again, no one ever accused me of being a smart player)

 

[OndeTv]

Haha, fair enough. In the past (pre legendary components) i may have used stone axes way beyond their intended use as well

 

[Suxar]

Trader with T6 cells (price is with max barter skills and T5 enforcer glasses+cigar):

Maybe something was changed in the last update. After the release of 1.0, I did not see T6 items for sale at the merchant.

 

[OndeTv]

Possibly. They don't always have them in my game either though. It is the first time i see 2 for sale simultaneously. I've been driving around between traders (i think i have 8 traders located at this point) a lot for the 7 i have.

 

[zztong]

Since solar cells are so expensive in general, i have only bought T6 versions in my current playthrough.

That's my pattern as well. I'm not usually so desperate to shift from a generator to solar that I have to make do with a lesser solar cell and since even the lesser solar cells are so expensive there's no point in buying one. I think the lower tier solar cells should be in the loot lists.

 

[Dead Smarty]

That's my pattern as well. I'm not usually so desperate to shift from a generator to solar that I have to make do with a lesser solar cell and since even the lesser solar cells are so expensive there's no point in buying one. I think the lower tier solar cells should be in the loot lists.

Thought that would be my patern but sofar I still haven't used the spare generator and is the solar bank on the roof still waiting for the first cel. Unless cells looted or crafted I don't think I'll be using the bank.

 

[Riamus]

Fuel is consumed by the generator depending on the load. Therefore, turning it on or off does not matter. No load - no fuel consumption.

Well, I think the idea was to use battery until it runs out and only then use generators.  The way they work now, you'll use generators until the fuel runs out, then it switches to batteries.  You can't do it the other way unless you turn off the generators.  Still, I personally see no real value in doing it that way.  I don't even connect batteries to my generators except in very specific situations where I want a backup if I run out of gas in case I forget to fill it up.

----

As far as solar goes, it has always been a waste for most players.  It takes more space, provides less power, and only works during the day (except if using batteries for night power).  It is also very expensive and hard to find, reducing the usefulness even more, though it is easier to find now than it was initially after they removed the special inventories from traders.  I tend to find enough solar to buy that I'm doing well enough with solar in late game, though it's very hard to have a fully Q6 solar setup.  But it could definitely be better than it is.  I've set up a mod to allow me to craft solar cells and solar banks (I did that before they made it easier to find solar at traders again) but I don't even use it because I find enough to buy now.  But I think they should allow solar to be crafted.  It was fine as a special thing in the special inventories before, but now I think it really should be made craftable.  Make it hard to craft - require something like diamonds or whatever that are harder to find - but make it possible to craft all the way to Q6.  And make it possible to craft Q1 cells shortly after being able to craft generators, with Q6 at max electricity.  That way you can start a solar setup earlier in the game.  I also think they should make it so solar banks can provide just as much power as a generator (if using Q6 cells) and maybe even shrink the size of the banks to 1x2 instead of 1x3.  They'd still take more space, but it wouldn't be as bad.  The banks could use an art update as well (maybe even with a visual indication of how many cells are installed), but that's a minor thing.

Right now, solar is basically for people who just want a quieter base or who like the aesthetics or who just don't want to bother refueling generators.  There's no actual value to using solar over generator beyond not having to refuel them.  I think not having to refuel them is enough incentive for some people and they probably don't need to add more incentive, but they shouldn't be so difficult to get or have so many downsides to using them.  Fuel is easy enough to make in the late game when you have solar that there's no gameplay value to making them harder to get.  The gas savings doesn't really matter at that point.

For me, I use generators for my horde base because fuel easily lasts the entire night (even on 2 hour days), so I don't need to worry about batteries or anything, and generators take little space, which is good for a smaller horde base.  I use solar once possible on my regular base, mostly to not have to remember to refuel the generators, but also because I like the solar.  But it does mean having multiple solar banks, each connected to a battery bank.  By the time I have a fully solar base, I'm usually close to starting a new game, which kind of defeats the purpose of installing solar in the first place.

I almost forgot the most important part: Why we need a "Super parent" block to chain multiple parents into.

Currently my main power consumers are the SMG turrets. However, due to them being bullet sponges and power hungry, i only turn them on just before horde night ends. This for 2 reasons:

- they can not retain ammo for a full horde night because they are simply not efficient enough by themselves

- they help me mop up the remainder of the horde before loot bag timers expire (another problem mentioned in great detail under general support)

To make this defence more efficient (instead of me sniping every electrified zed during the night) would be more turrets and in groups paired with blade traps, dart traps and whatnot. But doing this also quickly exceeds the power limit of a single parent chain (especially if solar due to the 120W less output compared to a generator) and just becomes a general mess.

This makes enthusiast builders across the game sad in general, and wastes a good deal of creativity simply because it is a hassle that ought not to be there in the first place.

Just a thought - you can always set up a trigger plate at each electric fence and tie that to a turret.  When the zombie gets electrified, your turret kills them.  Otherwise, the turret is disabled until the next one is there.  That can save you a lot of ammo and probably allow that turret to work all horde night.  Maybe not ideal, but it provides an option you can already use, regardless what they might eventually do to improve electricity.  Trigger plates add more power usage, but the turret uses no power until triggered, so you are also generally using less power at any given time unless you trigger all the turrets at the same time (if we're talking about using a trigger plate or other sensor to activate turrets).