PC New EULA grants 7D2D all of your content?

[theFlu]

Anyone who creates content for strictly personal use need never worry about this EULA in the least since they are unobserved by the potential claimant. 

This I do agree with, not like TFP can do anything about something they don't know about. And I don't think they'd want to even if they could, in practice.

But, they do "own" it, insofar as exclusive copyright is "ownership". And while I hate the analogy of stealing with copyright usually, this might actually be one of the rare cases where a situation is really close to stealing, the rightful owner doesn't have access to their property. Curious.

 

[Roland]

This I do agree with, not like TFP can do anything about something they don't know about. And I don't think they'd want to even if they could, in practice.

But, they do "own" it, insofar as exclusive copyright is "ownership". And while I hate the analogy of stealing with copyright usually, this might actually be one of the rare cases where a situation is really close to stealing, the rightful owner doesn't have access to their property. Curious.

it’s even weirder because not only does the rightful owner not have access to their property that they have no idea exists, but it was the very owner that knowingly created the means and opportunity for them to be “robbed” in the first place. 
 

I think my motivation to create mods has just returned!!

 

[khzmusik]

I get that you guys are being lighthearted about it; but I'm curious about the details. What in the EULA would make that true; as I read it, any "future ownership" is essentially transferred at the moment of clicking the "Go Away" -button below the EULA pop-up; is there something there that would defer it to the moment of first publication, or are you just rolling with the funny?

Copyright in a work is created as soon as the work is "fixed" in a medium (how it is "fixed" depends upon the medium).  But that isn't really the issue.

The issue is that copyright only grants certain rights in those works. (They are enumerated in 17 USC 106, and no further rights are granted.) If you truly keep the mods to yourself, you're not utilizing any of those rights, so TFP have no legal recourse against you.

 

[Roland]

Here’s another thought. 7 Days to Die is their first title and for those of us who’ve been around awhile we know that TFP experimented with a lot of systems. They settled on the ones they want for this game but who knows what they will want to use for future games. 
 

They might want to do LBD or…..possibly a hybrid system between LBD, skill point perk shopping, and LBR. But that’s years away for them and we already have high profile modders experimenting already doing exactly those things right now. 
 

If TFP uses some similar or even exact same hybrid system in their next game as an existing mod, that modder can feel proud (I suppose) but they won’t be able to feel legally entitled. 
 

This just one example but it would apply to any of the systems that TFP ever experimented with and that modders have or will bring back and possibly iterate upon in ways that TFP might want to use in a future game. 
 

So it’s not just about TFP taking mods but it’s also nipping in the bud any thorny issues that might arise in future games they make that someone might claim some part of it was lifted from their mod. Well true or not it wouldn’t go anywhere and as a bonus we might get a game with an interesting native LBD/LBR hybrid system. 
 

Poor Khaine…

 

[khzmusik]

So it’s not just about TFP taking mods but it’s also nipping in the bud any thorny issues that might arise in future games they make that someone might claim some part of it was lifted from their mod.

But, once again, a EULA granting TFP non-exclusive rights to modders' content would accomplish exactly the same thing.

The only reason for TFP to get exclusive rights is if they want the power to prevent anyone other than TFP from distributing the mods (or not, as TFP decide).

Also, you mentioning "in a future game" makes me suspicious that the exclusive rights assigned to TFP are not limited to 7D2D-related uses, despite what the EULA seems to say. Is this just a guess on your part, or do you know if that was indeed the intent?

 

[theFlu]

so TFP have no legal recourse against you.

No recourse as no violation has occurred, but they do have the rights to publish it, without access to it... what a great system

This just one example but it would apply to any of the systems that TFP ever experimented with

They've published the works you're implying here, they already have the copyright due to that - EA or "full release" makes no difference, they've been released. Furthermore, game mechanics aren't even subject to copyright*, all the ARPGs are essentially carbon copies of one another.. some naming scheme things might be, but meh, rename.

* There are other takes on the topic, but I think that's the general case.

 

[Roland]

Also, you mentioning "in a future game" makes me suspicious that the exclusive rights assigned to TFP are not limited to 7D2D-related uses, despite what the EULA seems to say. Is this just a guess on your part, or do you know if that was indeed the intent?

Totally guessing.   I don’t even play a lawyer on tv. 

 

[Arez]

Moving forward TFP is preparing DLC that they plan to sell and we have already heard whispers of people threatening to mod their own versions as a "take that" move against TFP.

That is interesting for a moddable game and it was the 1st thing I thought of when learning that DLCs would be added. There is nothing preventing a modder from accessing the DLC content for free. Of course there are games where you can use unlock tools (like in Call of Duty) but that has a more nefarious connotation as opposed to already being under the hood of a game as it's one of the game's main features. 

But on the subject at hand, the EULA is there to be enforced when absolutely needed. Yes, we are giving up the rights to our creations but it is highly doubtful that TFP are going to add your mods into the game and claim them as their own creations. 

Also, as for video creators, all gaming videos are essentially allowed to exist by the game publishers. Gaming videos are based on copyrighted works that publishers allow to be used for free as a means of promotion for their games. That is why you can use most gaming music in Youtube videos without getting a copyright claim. If I made a 7 Days to Die video and scored it with Resident Evil 2 music, I would not get a copyright claim from Capcom. But if Capcom wanted to claim the video, they could. Most game music/content is not in the automated Youtube Content ID system.

Nintendo is a good example to bring up because they didn't care that videos were free promotion...they were not allowing it. I'm not sure where things are now, but the last I heard, content creators had to sign up to Nintendo's creator program to be allowed to make videos on their games. 

The bottom line is, if TFP were to enforce the EULA in ways that people are fearing they might, it would be such bad PR for them. The court of public opinion is in many ways as strong as the court of law. 

 

[khzmusik]

Just to give you all some context. Another game I enjoy playing is Forever Skies. Like 7D2D, they now require accepting their EULA in order to play the game; and like 7D2D, they allow mods.

But unlike 7D2D, they don't require that you lose all rights to your own content.

From their EULA:

8.4 Who owns the fan content.

You own the new, original fan content you create. However, since your fan content is based on our content, we may want to show it off on our social media, make it available to other players in our games (e.g. in case of your mods) etc. In order for us to be able to use and transmit your fan content we need you to give us certain rights over it. So you give us from the moment of creation of your fan content a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free licence [sic] to use, modify, reproduce, create derivative works from, distribute, exploit, transmit, perform and communicate your fan content in connection with our games. From our side, rest assured that if your creation stands out we will do our best to reach out, have a chat and grant you appropriate recognition.
Just to be clear, the content from our game (e.g. characters, setting, gameplay and appearance) is and will be still owned by us.

This is what I am hoping we all can convince TFP to do.

EDIT: link to their EULA on Steam: store.steampowered.com//eula/1641960_eula_0 (you have to make it a link, I don't want to trigger moderator approval)

 

[Jeff Sapp]

Welcome to the Fun Pimps...... 

 

[YourMirror]

Just to give you all some context. Another game I enjoy playing is Forever Skies. Like 7D2D, they now require accepting their EULA in order to play the game; and like 7D2D, they allow mods.

But unlike 7D2D, they don't require that you lose all rights to your own content.

From their EULA:

This is what I am hoping we all can convince TFP to do.

EDIT: link to their EULA on Steam: store.steampowered.com//eula/1641960_eula_0 (you have to make it a link, I don't want to trigger moderator approval)

"We all"?

You do you man. This UELA doesnt bother me at all. And yes i mod. Seems you feel to important. Accept it or don't. I bet you this won't change. So stand by your first statement. Uninstall the game en remove all your mod repostitories. See if TFP care. I won't.

 

[canadianbluebeer]

I think Mischief Maker vs Twitch Integration is an existing scenario we can look at. Mischief Maker was monetized and was directly in competition with TFP's own native Twitch Integration and so TFP cited EULA violation and laid down a cease and desist.

Moving forward TFP is preparing DLC that they plan to sell and we have already heard whispers of people threatening to mod their own versions as a "take that" move against TFP. I see this more comprehensive language as TFP prepping for future DLCs that they want to sell but due to the modability of the game some may try to bootleg and circumvent which would again be a form of user content directly competing against TFP content.

MM ran from Dec 2019 until Jun 2023.  It predated Twitch Integration.  TFP changed the EULA to shut it down.

after 31 months of it running.

I pretty much stopped playing this game after that. (big flap, not gonna go into the whole thing).

I did fire it up again for the "1.0"   to see what was what.  (not what I call a 1.0, but I do understand getting it into the consoles... shenanigans with version number etc, to placate them.)

Now this?   Exclusive?  This seems to imply they can take exclusive control over any videos and streams and do what they want, and deny ME the rights to that for my own streams/videos? Thus including my voice, likeness etc etc?

Preemptively stopping certain mode makers?

Non-Exclusive nobody would bat an eyelash.  Exclusive?

No.

I haven't fired up the game yet to have to choose to accept/deny.  Over 4k hrs.

I'll wait until the new year. If it's still as is, then I'm gonna say no and be a <censored> and ask for my twenty bucks back.

 

[Arez]

Now this?   Exclusive?  This seems to imply they can take exclusive control over any videos and streams and do what they want, and deny ME the rights to that for my own streams/videos? Thus including my voice, likeness etc etc?

No. Nowhere does it say that they have the rights to your likeness, unlike Activision's contract with voiceover artists. 

They have the rights to your content that is based on their content. It is just like everything else. If you post clips of a movie on YouTube, the movie studio has the right to claim it or have it taken down as long as it's not fair use. The same applies to games. 

But YouTube videos are used as free promotion so they, in whole, have largely been excluded from YouTube's Content ID system.

Also, as far as mods are concerned, most of them are probably not able to be owned by the modders anyway. Most modders use other's assets. If I was to create an original character, copyright it and then make a 7 Days mod out of it...TFP wouldn't own my character. If I was to make a Superman zombie mod, do you think TFP would then own the rights to Superman?

 

[theFlu]

If I was to create an original character, copyright it and then make a 7 Days mod out of it...TFP wouldn't own my character.

They actually might.. insofar as they can own your mods. With superman, the best you have is fair use, or something like an expired copyright; so there's no license for you to grant TFP. With your original character, as used in the mod you've made, you have the rights to give away your rights, and arguably you've done so with the mod / EULA.

I don't see a legal distinction, if they get the rights to any and all mods you make*, that must include the assets; otherwise there'd be issues in steam workshop...

*I don't know if this is actually enforceable, but seems to be the intent...?

 

[Arez]

They actually might.. insofar as they can own your mods. With superman, the best you have is fair use,

It's the same thing, unless the law for thee does not apply for me.

If I legally and precisely do not grant them ownership of my character then they couldn't own it. There's nothing in the EULA that expresses that they take ownership of any intellectual properties. As long as I have significant evidence that I didn't create my character for the sole purpose of making it into a 7 Days to Die mod, and assuming all things are equal regarding legal counsel, then I would have the same control of my character as DC/Warner Bros does of Superman. 

Now yes, this would be complicated, especially if I distribute the mod publicly. At most, they might have limited control to use my character mod within the scope of 7 Days to Die, but I would still maintain full control of my character. 

 

[theFlu]

Now yes, this would be complicated

We can agree on this at the very least, all things copyright seem almost solely reliant on being decided by a judge.

But if we assume the EULA actually applies to Mischief Maker all the way to giving TFP the right to tell the creator to stop distributing it, I don't see how it wouldn't apply the same to any part of any mod that was created for 7dtd.

Your argument seems to be that since you already published something (the character) earlier, it would have some form of protection due to that? But the act of publishing only establishes the start of your copyright period, it doesn't prevent you from giving the rights to someone else later. Whether or not you made it "solely for the mod" shouldn't matter by "default law", and there's no exception in the EULA for it.

 

[khzmusik]

So stand by your first statement. Uninstall the game en remove all your mod repostitories. See if TFP care. I won't.

No need to be hostile.

And you entirely missed the point of that comment. Of course I'm not going to do that, because it won't make any difference. TFP already own everything in my repositories. Even if I took them down, TFP could still demand that I hand that content over to them.

What I probably will do is not include any of my original content in mods any more. For example, one of the things on my todo list was to dust off my old synths and create new dynamic music for the game, in the style of old 80's horror soundtracks (Italian zombie movies, John Carpenter, etc). There's no way I'm going to do that if I lose all my rights to that music.

I don't care at all about XML edits or C# code (which won't work outside the game), nor about things that are derived from TFP's content (like new item icons made from their existing icons). I only care about the things I create from scratch, like music, character models, story lines, or recorded voices.

There's nothing in the EULA that expresses that they take ownership of any intellectual properties. As long as I have significant evidence that I didn't create my character for the sole purpose of making it into a 7 Days to Die mod, and assuming all things are equal regarding legal counsel, then I would have the same control of my character as DC/Warner Bros does of Superman. 

Now yes, this would be complicated, especially if I distribute the mod publicly. At most, they might have limited control to use my character mod within the scope of 7 Days to Die, but I would still maintain full control of my character. 

No, this is incorrect. The EULA explicitly grants TFP full control of your character: "to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant Licensor an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable and sub-licensable worldwide right and license..."

This is what happens when exclusive rights are transferred - you are assigning your rights to TFP. When you agreed to that EULA, anything you created from then on belongs to TFP, as long as it goes into a mod.

The language of the EULA seems to suggest that full control of your character would only extend to uses in connection with 7D2D: "to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services..." But, this could mean "in any way; and (specifically) for any purposes in connection with the Software..." Or it could mean "in any way and for any purposes, (provided that they are) in connection with the Software..."

It's ambiguous enough such that if TFP took down your character in other media, it might hold up in court, since by the first reading they own your content for use "in any way."

 

[Arez]

No, this is incorrect. The EULA explicitly grants TFP full control of your character: "to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant Licensor an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable and sub-licensable worldwide right and license..."

License is not ownership.

But if we assume the EULA actually applies to Mischief Maker all the way to giving TFP the right to tell the creator to stop distributing it, I don't see how it wouldn't apply the same to any part of any mod that was created for 7dtd.

I assume Mischief Maker worked solely with 7 Days to Die. You're not allowed to monetize 7 Days to Die mods. TFP has the right to stop them from using it on 7 Days to Die, but it's highly doubtful they could stop them from using it on other games with similar functionality. 

Your argument seems to be that since you already published something (the character) earlier, it would have some form of protection due to that? But the act of publishing only establishes the start of your copyright period, it doesn't prevent you from giving the rights to someone else later. Whether or not you made it "solely for the mod" shouldn't matter by "default law", and there's no exception in the EULA for it.

If I was to make a comic book of my character, and then decided to make a 7 Days mod of my character, TFP would have as much ownership of my character as they would of Superman if he was made into a 7 Days mod.

Also I imagine that if this was to be taken to court, and if it was known that I created the character solely for the sake of being a 7 Days mod, then I can see possibility of judgment not going in my favor in regards to ownership. Also, there is no statement of ownership in the EULA anyway, only license.   

Also also, consider if someone else was to create a 7 Days mod of my character. Then it would be 100% like Superman. 

If I, being the creator and owner of the character, were to make the mod, then I can see it being an act of granting TFP license to some degree. But, such as contracts can be sometimes, a court can decide against them regardless of what they state.

 

[Roland]

MM ran from Dec 2019 until Jun 2023.  It predated Twitch Integration.  TFP changed the EULA to shut it down.

after 31 months of it running.

But it didn't predate the game upon which it was built. It doesn't matter whether it predated Twitch Integration. It only mattered that it was competing with Twitch Integration. TFP didn't need to change the EULA to shut it down.

Now this?   Exclusive?  This seems to imply they can take exclusive control over any videos and streams and do what they want, and deny ME the rights to that for my own streams/videos? Thus including my voice, likeness etc etc?

Preemptively stopping certain mode makers?

Non-Exclusive nobody would bat an eyelash.  Exclusive?

No.

But why would they when 99% of content only enhances their game's image and reach? In almost every case TFP is going to want mod makers to make their mods and distribute them freely and for influencers to showcase their game for as many likes and subscribes as they can get. There is no motive for them to do what you fear except in the very narrow band of situations where some content creators may be competing directly with them, harming their brand, and/or sewing confusion in the marketplace. 

That big "flap" with Mischief Makers was the exception and not the rule. There hasn't been any slippery slope TFP lawyers have been sliding down throwing injunctions and taking videos, mods, or other content for themselves and there won't be. The established pattern for over a decade is to encourage a robust modding community which mostly monitors itself just as it has for years and years. Is the word "exclusive" going to suddenly change things?

No.

I haven't fired up the game yet to have to choose to accept/deny.  Over 4k hrs.

I'll wait until the new year. If it's still as is, then I'm gonna say no and be a <censored> and ask for my twenty bucks back.

Is that even possible with 4k hours played? I don't know what name you censored but I'd plug in "Valve Thug" if you can actually pull that off.

 

[theFlu]

You're not allowed to monetize 7 Days to Die mods.

Based on what? Copyright? EULA? Or an Exclusive license that excludes You from your rights?

If I was to make a comic book of my character, and then decided to make a 7 Days mod of my character, TFP would have as much ownership of my character as they would of Superman if he was made into a 7 Days mod.

This is true, but in the other direction. Superman is immune to damage, not to copyright. DC can give the exclusive rights to Superman to anyone, including TFP, and this EULA argues that they would automatically do so if they were to make the mod. And since it's an exclusive right, it would exclude DC from utilizing superman (in whatever scope the EULA attempts to apply to).

Note that you're likely thinking of "someone other than DC" making the mod; that person obviously doesn't have the ability to sign away DC's rights. Making such a mod could even be legal and monetizable, some form of fair use, and still not affect any DC rights. But DC as the copyright holder has the ability to sign the rights away, them making the mod would be the comparable case.

Also, there is no statement of ownership in the EULA anyway, only license.   

Because nothing in copyright is "ownership"; only "rights" and licenses to those rights. "Exclusive license" as granted in this EULA is as close to ownership as anything comes within copyright. The creator of a thing has no special rights in that regard.