2 coordinate POI placement

[4sheetzngeegles]

This is a pimp dream for the future of POI placement flexibility.
First I have a few questions that if answered, will explain if it
is a possibility or not.

In the future would it be possible to use two coodinates leaving
out the height  or elevation for prefab.xml?

The reason I am asking is; for placement of the pois if they have
the depth already within its placement format .xml. Is the terrain elevation coordinate
necessary for placement? There is or was a lot allocation for the footprint, which
would be a ground level foundation of sorts and the poi was placed and oriented
on top of that. that combined with the adaptive terrain should make a seamless ground.

Or are the POI's now dependent on the stamped city layouts? If 2 coordinates
are allowed, then it would allow for remote pois like cabins, or or small houses
"poi versions not destroyed terrain decor" to be placed on the elevated terrain.

The terrain format now is well below the 255 ceiling height, so even the tallest
building would not cause conflict.

Basically can the system that is already used within the biomes.xml for decorations be
used for placing actual prebuilt pois, in acceptable areas at higher elevation?

 

[zztong]

Or are the POI's now dependent on the stamped city layouts?

I would say they are not as wilderness POIs do not get placed on Tiles. POIs in settlements get placed on Tiles via POI Markers so that they can better integrate with the Tile content.

The reason I am asking is; for placement of the pois if they have
the depth already within its placement format .xml. Is the terrain elevation coordinate
necessary for placement?

I'm not entirely sure which XML file you're referring to here. A POI's XML contains the POI's entire dimensions (3D Size) and a ground level. A world's prefabs.xml file contains the coordinates that RWG determined. RWG would have used the POI's Size and Ground Level to help it determine the values that got put into the prefabs.xml file. ... At least that's what I tell myself. I've not tried to look at any code for that.

Basically can the system that is already used within the biomes.xml for decorations be
used for placing actual prebuilt pois, in acceptable areas at higher elevation?

I have dabbled with biomes.xml and have a few decorations in my modlet. I wouldn't say I've done so much with it that I know it very well. My experiences lead me to believe there's an effective max size for a decoration and that it's smaller than most POIs. I'm going to guess it is something like 16x16 max, but that's a guess. I also think I've seen smaller decorations placed within larger decorations. For instance, one if my decorations is a small destroyed horde base. I recall seeing trees placed within that, as if it had grown up through the horde base.

If you mess with it, I would be curious to know the results.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

If you mess with it, I would be curious to know the results.

I will try a low volume and low placement probability. to see the results.

I'm not entirely sure which XML file you're referring to here.

I was referring to the POIs folder xmls per POI.

The reference was to <property name="YOffset" value="-6" /> from army_camp_03.xml as an example.

This allows for a basement depth, so that it doesn't penetrate bedrock, just as the height
prevented the rendering of certain pois at high elevation from penetration of the 255 height
sky. This made me think of the ground level block that meshes with the terrain as a foundation
block, not by name but by its purpose. There use to be a prominent block texture that looked
like a face, and that is what I always thought of that as. That means altitude is being computed
somewhere maybe indirectly. So if "min\max altitude" were added as a property in the poi xml file
it could replace the need for the altitude parameter in prefabs.xml, this hypothetically would allow
for the individual pois to be placed by the game generation, in many of the more remote locations
simply by using the length and width footprint or lots. It would also still allow for the city stamps
to coincide. I use as a reference, not a game comparison "Banished". When placing a home there is a
footprint overlay that must be completely green before it allows a building placement it does not
naturally allow for placement on excessively uneven terrain, unless you manually flatten it.

 

[zztong]

<property name="YOffset" value="-6" />

I may not really understand what you've written there. I hope this is helpful and accurate...

I believe the YOffset says the lowest 6 layers of blocks in the POI are supposed to be placed below ground level. (Or basically, shift the POI down 6 blocks after you've picked a location.) So, if the POI were 26 blocks tall, 6 would be below ground and 20 would be above ground.

You can certainly make a POI in the Prefab Editor with a big enough basement that bedrock will cut off the POI. I'm aware of this having happened with some POIs in the CompoPack in the past as RWG has changed over the years.

Couldn't you compute the min/max altitude with the information currently available? Using the 26-block tall example from above, 20 blocks above ground level would mean the highest possible altitude that POI could be placed at would be something like 255 - 20 = 235.

 

[Riamus]

I am not sure that this request is really any different from what the game does.  The game is what determines the elevation placement of POI when placing the POI, just like it does with biome decorations.  The person making those doesn't determine that.  So there really isn't any difference.  RWG (or a third party map maker) adds in the elevation information when the POI is placed.  And even with biome decorations, although those aren't part of the prefabs.xml file, they would also be given an elevation.  That elevation has to be stored somewhere.  The game has to know full 3D coordinates for a POI placement.  If it needed to calculate that for every POI constantly by using ground level, it would hurt performance.

For higher level placement, that can already be done.  I am not sure what the max elevation for POI placement is for RWG (and I would expect it's possible to adjust that, possibly in rwgmixer), but you can always add a POI to a higher elevation if you want to.  But you'll want somewhere mostly flat because it will create really steep edges otherwise.  But as long as the height of the POI is below the max height allowed (I think maybe 250), it would be fine.  255 is the max height of the game itself, but they limit the max height of POI for various reasons, such as being able to walk, jump, and even build (at least a little) on top of it and probably fly over it.

 

[stallionsden]

I would say they are not as wilderness POIs do not get placed on Tiles. POIs in settlements get placed on Tiles via POI Markers so that they can better integrate with the Tile content.

I'm not entirely sure which XML file you're referring to here. A POI's XML contains the POI's entire dimensions (3D Size) and a ground level. A world's prefabs.xml file contains the coordinates that RWG determined. RWG would have used the POI's Size and Ground Level to help it determine the values that got put into the prefabs.xml file. ... At least that's what I tell myself. I've not tried to look at any code for that.

I have dabbled with biomes.xml and have a few decorations in my modlet. I wouldn't say I've done so much with it that I know it very well. My experiences lead me to believe there's an effective max size for a decoration and that it's smaller than most POIs. I'm going to guess it is something like 16x16 max, but that's a guess. I also think I've seen smaller decorations placed within larger decorations. For instance, one if my decorations is a small destroyed horde base. I recall seeing trees placed within that, as if it had grown up through the horde base.

If you mess with it, I would be curious to know the results.

Max hard coded size for biome deco is 25x25

I am not sure that this request is really any different from what the game does.  The game is what determines the elevation placement of POI when placing the POI, just like it does with biome decorations.  The person making those doesn't determine that.  So there really isn't any difference.  RWG (or a third party map maker) adds in the elevation information when the POI is placed.  And even with biome decorations, although those aren't part of the prefabs.xml file, they would also be given an elevation.  That elevation has to be stored somewhere.  The game has to know full 3D coordinates for a POI placement.  If it needed to calculate that for every POI constantly by using ground level, it would hurt performance.

For higher level placement, that can already be done.  I am not sure what the max elevation for POI placement is for RWG (and I would expect it's possible to adjust that, possibly in rwgmixer), but you can always add a POI to a higher elevation if you want to.  But you'll want somewhere mostly flat because it will create really steep edges otherwise.  But as long as the height of the POI is below the max height allowed (I think maybe 250), it would be fine.  255 is the max height of the game itself, but they limit the max height of POI for various reasons, such as being able to walk, jump, and even build (at least a little) on top of it and probably fly over it.

0 - 255 bedrock to sky.

The area from ground to sky vary biome to biome  same with ground to bedrock

 

[Riamus]

Max hard coded size for biome deco is 25x25

0 - 255 bedrock to sky.

The area from ground to sky vary biome to biome  same with ground to bedrock

Yes, but I don't think the game let's you place a POI that would be higher than a certain elevation that is less than the 255 max.  For example, if a POI is 100m tall (above ground level), I don't think the game allows placement at 155.  Or, at least, I think it causes problems.  I could be wrong, though.  That is just what I've seen others mention.  I haven't tested it myself.

 

[stallionsden]

Yes, but I don't think the game let's you place a POI that would be higher than a certain elevation that is less than the 255 max.  For example, if a POI is 100m tall (above ground level), I don't think the game allows placement at 155.  Or, at least, I think it causes problems.  I could be wrong, though.  That is just what I've seen others mention.  I haven't tested it myself.

If the ground level is 155 blocks from bedrock a 100 block tall poi will fit literally just no block room above tho but if that poi was 101 blocks then yes correct 155 + 101 =256 be to much.

But yeh getting the poi exactly at 155 high in the snow biome being the highest elevation in game would be more the issue.

 

[Riamus]

If the ground level is 155 blocks from bedrock a 100 block tall poi will fit literally just no block room above tho but if that poi was 101 blocks then yes correct 155 + 101 =256 be to much.

But yeh getting the poi exactly at 155 high in the snow biome being the highest elevation in game would be more the issue.

Thanks.  I just tested it and it does work fine.  I though the ceiling for where you can be was 255, but you can apparently be higher than that.  You just can't build higher.  So it doesn't matter if a POI is touching the max elevation of 255.  It will still work fine.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

 

[stallionsden]

Thanks.  I just tested it and it does work fine.  I though the ceiling for where you can be was 255, but you can apparently be higher than that.  You just can't build higher.  So it doesn't matter if a POI is touching the max elevation of 255.  It will still work fine.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

No worries at all

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

If it needed to calculate that for every POI constantly by using ground level, it would hurt performance.

Yup, the game calculates it for every poi when placing them. There is a square allocation or lot for each poi.

It use to be a circular foundation with a square place in it. The easiest way to see it is pick a pregen, delete

all poi references from the prefabs.xml, and start the game.

The game is what determines the elevation placement of POI when placing the POI, just like it does with biome decorations.  The person making those doesn't determine that.  So there really isn't any difference. 

In DM or creative menu, a player can manually place each poi at any given altitude that has terrain to support it.

The change that has occurred is the max height that the game will place pois no matter the height has been re-coded

to a much lower level. It happened over a period of alphas, and I waited to see if it would be returned.

The way I verified it was within the last alphas that allowed the hidden import of a DTM, heightmap. I created an 8192

by 8192 terrain basically an 8k. I created 64 x 1k flat terrains I tried different shapes square circle triangle even stars . all 

ranging from 30 which use to be the default for water level, to as @stallionsden i subtracted the tallest build from 245

to give a grace height. Each time buildings would no longer generate above the low 100s at most these were only a few

sparse. The clusters were in the mid 90s constantly. Nav is at 88, with a variance of only a few meters for poi placement.

Then the raw stamp format was changed to a single layer obfuscated image. After that the new city stamps were adopted.

The reason for the request came from me trying to look forward, back then to now. No I can't see the future, but I figured

weather would come back into play eventually or they would have deprecated it then like other mechanics.

The new form of mountains are only used as fences between locations.  The bottom of the weathersurvival.xml

has this property <TemperatureHeight height="0" addDegrees="0"/> I use to customize and set cold for snow at the higher

altitudes and heat as you headed for bedrock. 30 height was wasteland so it was an expected brutal heat with radiation, and

posted to different pois using the the splat 3 file, and a blank water.xml.  If all of the pois are at the same altitude then the hot

and cold planned for the new weather would just be a biome temperature. 

For me setting 7000 plus  individual pois by hand would be a bit much. I just wanted to know if the 3d terrain would be used

for Gold or not.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

Guppy once said no pictures then it didn't happen. I saved nearly everything from
the beginning. To keep learning.

This is why until now the basic dislikes that people expressed didn't affect me.
This is what I designed for myself and played all the time. Now it's flat. It's
still playable but for me its missing personality that it once showed.

1 Looking out of burnt forest



2 Looking into the burnt forest from elevation



3 This was my snow biome



4 I painted slanted slopes, because it allowed microsplat to work more clearly.



5 I realized that the best underlying texture for all should be desert. The game
was based on Nav so it made sense to me. Ths is what no desert texture cliffs look like.



6 In the upper right I realized that desert texture is the only one that is horizontal and
make the natural looking earth layers. So later I began to replace all but the topsoil with
desert. I had an old one where I just recolored the desert darker gray to resemble rock face.  



7 here is the lot layout that I was writing about. 2 dimensions length width.



8 A conversation in the diary made reference to the road angles being problematic, so I learned
to do the math for rise over run to get a useable angle then painted my cliffs further back to fit.
Also I had learned in discord the limits, and how to compensate, so I also had taller buildings that
were on elevated terrain.


9 This is what every other texture looks like as a steep cliff, that's why I use desert wall as the
subterrain.



10 This was me screwing around to show different lighting. Madmole disliked it because he said he didn't
want to make the game look like an arcade.



Looking at the new coding and file changes, I realize it probably won't return, But I figured it better to ask then stay

silent.  These are just to give a visual of what my words missed.