PC I Genuinely love this game but I have a couple problems with 1.0

I never said he had to bash the devs, but he doesn't have to defend the water thing to be a moderator. I went to Boy Scouts as a kid (before it became @%$# scouts) and earned the Eagle Scout Award. If in real life I built a base beside a lake/river, had fire, and something to hold the water so I could boil it (I don't maybe something like a cooking pot....) I would not be able to not have infinite drinking water. I would have to make a conscious desicion to suicide myself for that to happen. Everyone that came up with and defends this decision deserves every bit of ire we have been giving them because of how utterly stupid it is and as you can see Meganoth is one of those people. Personally I think this has less to do with glue and more to do with them not being able to fix all the bugs they had with the water voxels and decided this "feature" was a better idea than just admiting publicly they can't figure water. I could respect someone running into bugs that they simply aren't knowledgable enough to fix. I can not respect someone thinking I can't drink river water.


You can think what you like, but then the developers are either lying or are stupid as well because they said the changes were partly to get rid of glass jars AND make water a commodity that is not unlimited.

You really have to understand that this game does not try to be a simulation. The developers have said multiple times that gameplay trumps realism when they design this game. You can disagree but calling everyone stupid just because they think likewise and disagree with your viewpoint is very narrowminded.

This game has a lot of features that are absolutely impossible in real life and they are there because, again, gameplay trumps realism: You can carry hundreds of tons, including complete vehicles in your inventory, you can hop on blocks you have placed while jumping, your bullets make more damage when you are better trained, at blood moon several laws of physics are violated, you never need to go to the toilet or sleep, workstations craft while you are away. Probably all things you accept, but I am stupid when I defend a similar concept that likewise makes gameplay better in my view?

 
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You can think what you like, but then the developers are lying to us or stupid as well because they said the changes were partly to get rid of glass jars AND make water a commodity that is not unlimited.

You really have to understand that this game does not try to be a simulation. The developers have said multiple times that gameplay trumps realism when they design this game. You can disagree but calling everyone stupid just because they think likewise and disagree with your viewpoint is very narrowminded.

This game has a lot of features that are absolutely impossible in real life and they are there because, again, gameplay trumps realism: You can carry hundreds of tons, including complete vehicles in your inventory, you can hop on blocks you have placed while jumping, your bullets make more damage when you are better trained, at blood moon several laws of physics are violated, you never need to go to the toilet or sleep. Probably all things you accept, but I am stupid when I defend a similar concept that likewise makes gameplay better in my view?
Yes you are stupid for defending such a retarted change. 

 
When they announced that water jars were leaving in A21, I embraced the change and even modded them out in A20 to get an idea on how that was going to be.  I found the changes to be refreshing and added more to the gameplay.  I don't care that in real life I can take a bunch of jars and fill them up in the local lake, I also am not fighting off hordes of zombies in real life.

Everyone is going to have a different opinion on changes to the game, but the thing is, you can easily mod the game to bring back water jars if that is what you desire...and if you play multiplayer, then find a server that feels the same as you.

As Boy Scouts, we were trained to follow the Scout Law, based on 12 principles.  When we became Eagle Scouts, we were tasked with being a high level example of those principles to everyone out there.  As an Eagle Scout myself, I have to ask you - does calling someone stupid or @%$#ed because they like and defend something you don't like in a game an example of those principles we been tasked to show?

 
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Yeah, doesn't sound like someone who was an Eagle Scout to me.  Name calling is childish and won't get you anywhere in a discussion other than ignored.  And being ignored means you aren't going to have any chance of convincing anyone that your argument is valid.

 
As an Eagle Scout myself, I have to ask you - does calling someone stupid or @%$#ed because they like and defend something you don't like in a game an example of those principles we been tasked to show?
A Scout is:

TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.

It is dishonest of you to imply that I called him stupid out of the blue. As I pointed out earlier to him and now again to you, he asked if he was stupid for defending the devs retarted decision to tell people they can't drink river/lake water. If he didn't want to know my opinion on his level of mental capacity then he should not have asked me. I did not volunteer that opinion, he asked it of me and I gave him an honest answer. Meganoth has spent years lying to people and gas lighting them by ignoring people's well reasoned complaints about certain aspects of and changes to the game.

It's an obvious lie that this is about limiting glue since the easiest method of limiting people's access to glue is to both reduce the drop rate and change the recipe. Instead of glue only requiring 1 clean water it could require 10 or 20 or even 100 and that would have given them the same level of reduction that removing river/lake water did while being not only easier to code but also having no impact on the several other things water is also used for.

Edit: As a side note has anyone noticed those who are the most vocal about supporting such a dumb change are no lifers who forum warrior all day long? Riamus has an average of 4.6 posts per day in the just under 2 years he's been on the forums. BFT2020 has an average of 10.5 posts per day in the just under 4 years he's been on the forums. Yall need to go touch some grass, and no the grass in Navezgane does not count.

 
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A Scout is:

TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.

It is dishonest of you to imply that I called him stupid out of the blue. As I pointed out earlier to him and now again to you, he asked if he was stupid for defending the devs retarted decision to tell people they can't drink river/lake water. If he didn't want to know my opinion on his level of mental capacity then he should not have asked me. I did not volunteer that opinion, he asked it of me and I gave him an honest answer. Meganoth has spent years lying to people and gas lighting them by ignoring people's well reasoned complaints about certain aspects of and changes to the game.

It's an obvious lie that this is about limiting glue since the easiest method of limiting people's access to glue is to both reduce the drop rate and change the recipe. Instead of glue only requiring 1 clean water it could require 10 or 20 or even 100 and that would have given them the same level of reduction that removing river/lake water did while being not only easier to code but also having no impact on the several other things water is also used for.

Edit: As a side note has anyone noticed those who are the most vocal about supporting such a dumb change are no lifers who forum warrior all day long? Riamus has an average of 4.6 posts per day in the just under 2 years he's been on the forums. BFT2020 has an average of 10.5 posts per day in the just under 4 years he's been on the forums. Yall need to go touch some grass, and no the grass in Navezgane does not count.
And have you bother to look at my posts?  I complain about things often.  Lately, it has been the bad choice to restrict traders by biomes.  Just because someone visits the forum and posts doesn't make their opinions any less valid than yours.  Besides, probably half my posts are answering questions and helping people.  It is also extremely easy to spend 5-10 minutes responding to various posts and have 5 posts in that short time.  If the best you can do is call names and ridicule people for their opinions, you have a lot worse problems than someone who actually has no life.

You should also understand basic cause and effect.  If someone hates the game, they might make one post and leave.  Some might make 10-20 if they want to respond to people.  A few might really want to bash the game and might post 100 times.  After that, they are gone.  If someone really likes the game and wants to answer questions and help out (and support the game), they'll post a lot more.  This will always make people who like a game post more than people who do not.  This isn't always the case, of course.  This game has been around for over 10 years and has changed a lot.  People who loved the game in the early alphas may have posted a lot back then but hate it today.  Even so, yes, people with a lot of posts are pretty much going to be the ones who like the game a lot (either now or on the past).  Nothing wrong with that. 

This whole "only my opinion matters and anyone disagreeing is dumb" nonsense we have been seeing lately is just childish behavior.

You taking the time to calculate number of posts per day shows more of a lack of life than responding to questions on a forum, btw.

 
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A Scout is:

TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.

It is dishonest of you to imply that I called him stupid out of the blue. As I pointed out earlier to him and now again to you, he asked if he was stupid for defending the devs retarted decision to tell people they can't drink river/lake water. If he didn't want to know my opinion on his level of mental capacity then he should not have asked me. I did not volunteer that opinion, he asked it of me and I gave him an honest answer. Meganoth has spent years lying to people and gas lighting them by ignoring people's well reasoned complaints about certain aspects of and changes to the game.


The question was a rhethorical question, a polite answer would have been to say that you disagree and why. Because it is impolite to say that to someone else, especially in a discussion. You might say "Oh man, I am an idiot" when you make a mistake, but it is impolite if you say that to some stranger, even if he did a mistake. Now I don't mind much that you still answered the question, but you really should start talking about the game instead of discussing what you think about specific people on the forum.

Hint: You can ignore people that get on your nerves, including me. Instead of talking about them.

It's an obvious lie that this is about limiting glue since the easiest method of limiting people's access to glue is to both reduce the drop rate and change the recipe. Instead of glue only requiring 1 clean water it could require 10 or 20 or even 100 and that would have given them the same level of reduction that removing river/lake water did while being not only easier to code but also having no impact on the several other things water is also used for.


But what would that change if water was unlimited? If 1 glue needs 1 water, I would go to the lake with 50 empty bottles and with one swoop had enough water for 50 glue. If glue needs 10 water I would go to the lake with 500 empty bottles and with one swoop would have enough water for 50 glue. The only difference is the crafting cost for the bottles.

Is that good for the game balance? STR is already the easiest most powerful attribute, this would boost it even more as the miner would have by far the lowest crafting cost and all others would have to mine longer, at the start of the game but also later when a larger amount of their small supply of sand needs to be used for bottle crafting instead of concrete.

Your idea is definitely an alternative to the solution TFP implemented. Both would limit glue. But almost all solutions have advantages (more realism for example, easier to implement) and disadvantages (balance, still empty bottles in the game, limiting through mining grind). And TFP has said one of their motives for choosing their solution was to remove those empty bottles altogether. I am just the messenger here. This was officially said by TFP and lots of people here on the forum have read that as well.

TFP surely had multiple options to go forward. And they decided they liked the one with dew collectors the best, especially since one of their objectives was to remove emtpy bottles (again, officially said, I am only repeating that). Both their and your solution limit glue production. That your method would be easier to implement is just one factor, sometimes people do not choose the easiest solution. Sometimes they choose the one that they like the most.

 
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It is dishonest of you to imply that I called him stupid out of the blue.
It makes no difference whether you chose to insult someone "out of the blue". Insulting someone at all is obnoxiously childish and just makes it harder for other players to have an honest conversation with you. This is the absolute opposite behavior that is taught in Boy Scouts and I would be embarrassed if I were one of your leaders.

Yall need to go touch some grass
Boy, never heard that one before!

 
That was only a side remark to make sure we are on the same page that none of that is really realistic, just some is less and some is more.

Just as an example of something you might or might not have noticed, isn't it very very weird that you need to cook murky water so you can make glue out of it? Does it mean that simple bacteria somehow prevent glue making?

Ah well, if you make an effort you can try to explain everything in a fake kind of way. So lets say that lake water is so dirty/toxic/whatever that you can't use it for glue and for drinking. Since even murky water is not good enough for glue (something we all have accepted without much protest) it sounds logical that even more contaminated water does not produce glue reliably as well. And your character in the game seems to know no way to make lake water into clean water, not with just cooking it for a while. So your character does not use lake water for anything, he knows it makes only problems. Sounds faintly logical so far?  Now the only exception is, that he actually will drink water from the lake in life-or-death situations, before he is to die of thirst. Luckily he seems to only get dysentery instead of something serious.

Hey, don't blame me for trying 😁.

I once watched the movie "Mission Impossible 2". I liked MI1 and also had no problem with MI2 until that scene at the end in the tunnel where they had a flying helicopter tied to a train in a train tunnel and the helicopter did not crash!! I could not accept that. It soured the whole movie and the series for me and it took a long time for me to forget and have fun watching later parts of the series.

Now I told this to friends and it seems nobody else had that same reaction. For them this part was not exceptionally "impossible" but on par with the rest of the movies exaggerated action. Maybe the lake water in 72D2 is *your* helicopter moment. For me it is just on par with all the other stretches of believability I accept to have a fun experience.
I did notice that, and from what I recall other people have too but didn't make a big fuss out of it. It kind of fell to the wayside among bigger issues like, "Where are my goddamn jars?", "Aarghh, dew collectors!", "I'm dying of thirst, water, I need water!",  and, of course, most important of all, "Why can't I gather water from a body of water?"

I like your "explanation" though. It really stretches basically everything, but if you want it to it does make sense. I can completely relate. If I like something and there are plotholes - in the widest sense - I have no problem filling them with whatever I deem fits. 

But as much as I like your explanation - and I know it's not meant to be taken seriously - it doesn't work for me. Which is my problem. Nothing works for me here. It's just too much. It demands too much. 

As far as I'm concerned, one of the best assets of 7DTD is how natural it feels. The - occasionally - nonsensical roads aside. cities, towns, the rural areas, they all feel like it's something you're familiar with. I think this is one of 7DTD*s greatest draws. The whole voxel thing where you can create and destroy basically everything, the horde night which necessitates figuring out a good base, the game stage concept, etc. etc., all of that, I believe wouldn't be as fun to engage with if it weren't for this attempted realism of the world. That's how I see it, in any case.

And the thing is, with this whole no-gathering-water-from-bodies-of-water, they're taking away from that. Which for me, in consequence, takes away from the whole game. 

In any case, I remember that scene from Mission Impossible 2. Just my thoughts: Scenes like that is why I believe that we see superhero movie after superhero movie in the movies these days. Because they can do completely nonsensical, over-the-top, eye-candy bull@%$# scenes like that and people will accept it. Because "superhero movie", who gives a @%$#. 

They can do these scenes - which they know rakes in the money - and no one will bat an eye.

So yes, you're probably right, the lake water issue in 7DTD is my "helicopter moment", I'm just saddened to see that TFP chose to go down that route. Just like in Hollywood movies, apparently, sooner or later you just want to rake in the money.     

 
Just like in Hollywood movies, apparently, sooner or later you just want to rake in the money.


I can fully relate to you having this strong reaction to the change where I don't even bat an eye. But this sentence I don't understand: Why would the controversial change to water make them rake in more money? They obviously hurt their sales somewhat by this because part of the players downvote them on steam.

 
Speaking of, just like movies, we can assume some things happen "off-screen". I don't know why the topic always comes back to empty jars.

The jars are gone. Good riddance. Everyone needs to get over it.

They are not required to collect water from lakes, as proved by zzztong and myself with modlets.

The fact that we summon an empty jar out of thin air to make a full one is the same exact mechanic as the dew collector when all is said and done.

It is as idiotic as the "swallowing the healing potion jar and all" gag; the whole thing of a video game is imagination. It is a lot less of a stretch of my imagination that I've got a backpack of empty plastic bottles or the like and I recycle as a frugal and conscientious post-apocalypse consumer without even giving it a second thought, than it is that I can't take some dirty water from a nearby lake and purify it.

 
Hear me out, guys. What if water jars were made of polymer? You probably wouldn't be making 500 of them just to fill with water. 

 
Hear me out, guys. What if water jars were made of polymer? You probably wouldn't be making 500 of them just to fill with water. 
Why wouldn't you?  I always have stacks of the stuff.  The only way to get jars back now is with a mod.

 
A Scout is:

TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.


and loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

Don't forget about the other 11 points of our Law fellow Eagle Scout.  If someone just dabbled in scouting they might just fixate on the one aspect of the Scout Law but an Eagle Scout behaving online in the way you are under the cover of anonymity? I agree that Scouting has lost a lot of what it once had but Eagle Scouts being toxic online isn't exactly shoring up the line of the Scouting ideals.

Of course, everyone has a bad day so hopefully you'll be more cheerful tomorrow.

Like LBD, the removal of jars and the subsequent overhaul of thirst survival is likely to be a hot topic forever. We should all strive to share our opinions without insult. Anger and bitterness are not going to change anything anyway.

 
and loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

Don't forget about the other 11 points of our Law fellow Eagle Scout.  If someone just dabbled in scouting they might just fixate on the one aspect of the Scout Law but an Eagle Scout behaving online in the way you are under the cover of anonymity? I agree that Scouting has lost a lot of what it once had but Eagle Scouts being toxic online isn't exactly shoring up the line of the Scouting ideals.

Of course, everyone has a bad day so hopefully you'll be more cheerful tomorrow.

Like LBD, the removal of jars and the subsequent overhaul of thirst survival is likely to be a hot topic forever. We should all strive to share our opinions without insult. Anger and bitterness are not going to change anything anyway.
What part of he asked if he was stupid is confusing to you?

 
Speaking of, just like movies, we can assume some things happen "off-screen". I don't know why the topic always comes back to empty jars.

The jars are gone. Good riddance. Everyone needs to get over it.

They are not required to collect water from lakes, as proved by zzztong and myself with modlets.

The fact that we summon an empty jar out of thin air to make a full one is the same exact mechanic as the dew collector when all is said and done.

It is as idiotic as the "swallowing the healing potion jar and all" gag; the whole thing of a video game is imagination. It is a lot less of a stretch of my imagination that I've got a backpack of empty plastic bottles or the like and I recycle as a frugal and conscientious post-apocalypse consumer without even giving it a second thought, than it is that I can't take some dirty water from a nearby lake and purify it.
The removal of empty jars is how TFP removed the ability to collect water from the lakes. It makes sense people are going to be writing about jars because that's the change that made it impossible to collect water from the lake. If I had to move the water one bucket of water (even with the current stack size of one) at a time it would be better than not being able to access that obvious source of water. I have to disagree that it's good the glass jars are gone. There's a lot of wiggle room to making glass jars and murky water more balanced than it was easily starting with lowering the stack sizes. I never did understand the balance decision for those to stack to 125 but clean water stack to 10.

Hear me out, guys. What if water jars were made of polymer? You probably wouldn't be making 500 of them just to fill with water. 
I'm at day 14 with 1k polymer and I intentionally don't harvest it. All that I have came from loot except what I needed to gather for the challenge. What are you spending so much polymer on that you would not have enough to make jars with? You use that much recog?

 
The removal of empty jars is how TFP removed the ability to collect water from the lakes. It makes sense people are going to be writing about jars because that's the change that made it impossible to collect water from the lake. If I had to move the water one bucket of water (even with the current stack size of one) at a time it would be better than not being able to access that obvious source of water. I have to disagree that it's good the glass jars are gone. There's a lot of wiggle room to making glass jars and murky water more balanced than it was easily starting with lowering the stack sizes. I never did understand the balance decision for those to stack to 125 but clean water stack to 10.
It isn't. A simple modlet with a couple lines of code allows you to grab water now.

https://github.com/Krougal/Water

zztong has a version as well.

It still says drink, and the animation is the same, but instead of drinking, you get a jar of murky water. I also added a recipe for 10 snow makes a jar of water as well.

The jars are the wrong argument, and it has divided everyone.

If we had all focused on the water sources and @%$#ed nonstop about it, there might be a chance they would have put it back.

The jars are not coming back no matter how much we @%$# about them.

 
I feel like you are so emotional about this that you are not reading what I am writing. I am agreeing with you that not being able to collect water from the lake is a bad thing. You are so hyperfocused on jars that you seem to not be seeing that. You are also going so far out of your way to avoid jars that you created a mod to right click water sources instead of downloading the already created and updated mod that puts jars back in the game (Cloud's Return of Glass Jars on nexus currently sitting at 1,239 unique downloads). As best I can tell you are the only one getting hung up on jars vs water sources.

 
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