I think everyone min maxes to some degree unless they are deliberately trying to not do so. What I was saying is that I doubt that most new players would restrict their skill point spend to a single attribute and a single weapon perk within that attribute. And then farm quests to such a degree that they will max out that weapon's magazine rank in a week or two. There is a lot more to the game than just killing zombies efficiently, and the temptation to spend points elsewhere for more utility, I would wager, causes points to be more spread.
PC How can the game still be this unbalanced? It's been 10 years.
- Thread starter Slingblade2040
- Start date
You are correct, many new players will do that. But everyone ticks differently and there are surely some who (after experiences with other games) think damage trumps everything else, and they will predominantly put points into their weapon.
Also if they don't read the information in the game carefully (like most new players, it was a known problem that new players don't read the journal) it will be just chance whether the perks they choose will have a magazine attached or not.
In other words, it will be just random whether new players get a balanced game or can craft a tier3 weapon early in game without knowing what happened and if they protest about the balance get accused of min-maxing
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Generally to the topic:
Now when we talk about veteran players and minmaxing, I agree with some here that it is a rather weak defense. Balancing usually should lead to lesser opportunities to min-max. By definition. At least according to wikipedia, which makes a fair try to define it, read the chapter about Meaningful Decisions
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TWORDY
Active member
I would rather have the opportunity to drop more magazines, and more at random. Right now I may narrow the scope of magazines by just avoiding opening other magazines, avoiding certain actions, limiting myself from certain perking, or using only a specific item. More magazines might be purchasable at Trader also for the future. Right now I have a a strong feeling of a deliberate evasion of any in-game algorithms to maximize my character early. I wouldn`t say it is a great system as it is currently implemented.
Scyris
New member
Sadly with the whole stupid learn by reading system your basically forced to invest in stats your not intersted in to get perks with very little use just to force magazine spawns. Like people take grease monkey and its like.. why? second you build a vehicle the perk serves no more purpose, it needs to have a extra bonus, maybe reduced vehicle damage taken, or reduced fuel use, just something besides just "more magazines". granted I feel the stat system needs to go in the damn garbage can and be redone.
Maybe a 3 stat system instead
Combat, Survival, Utility. Combat has all the weapons in it, survival has stuff like stealth (but not sneak attack dmg thats combat), master chef, the physican perk etc, while utility has stuff like grease monkey, miner69'er/motherload, lockpicking etc in it. You do not need the same amount of perks in each stat, you just need the right ones in each stat. I basically never invest in intel as I find most of its perks useless, and the one perk I do want (Physician) has to high of a investment for just one perk I want. Stats also need to do things other than just headshot damage and dismember chance I mean have them do those 2 things and something extra. Str could be melee or block damage or both, Perception ups ranged weapon damage, Agility could up movement speed by 2% per stat to help offset armor penalties a bit more.
The stat system could be much better if they'd put in a bit of thought to improve it.
Another way is give each of the 4 armor slots a special "stat mod" slot, that only the +1 stat mods can go into, so you can get a possible +4 to one stat, would be perfect for str, since you can just use that gear, stack +4 str and get miner69'er/motherload to 4/5 Though we'd need a secondary +1 str mod than just cigar so you cannot quad stack those.
Scyris
New member
Yeah but the current stat system and learn by reading system basically forces you into certain stats if you wanna be able to make things. I'd care less if they'd decouple weapons from stats and make weapon/tools its own 6th stat that has headshot/dismember chance and all weapons and tools in it, quite a few of the perks are also in stats that make little sense for it to be there in the first place. If you ask me all melee weapons and tools should be in str, and all ranged weapons should be in perception. While the other perks in those lines get spread out to other stats.
Or just go with the 3 stat system I suggested, it'd be perfect and pretty much solve all the problems the current stat system has. Best thing is it'd be easy to implement since its just changing the stat names, and moving perks around in the xmls. Ideally though I want learn by doing for weapons and mining tools and have headshot/dismember chance govered by the action skill (as well as a damage bonus at certain breakpoints) as well as it governs what level of say pummel pete you can get.
I don't know about you, but its extremly annoying having to spend points in a stat when you only want ONE perk in that stat line, its basically a waste of skill points at that point. ANother way to fix it, is have the player gain stat points, as well as skill points every level, each stat takes X stat points to raise by 1. Once you max out all the stats by lv 100+ you can turn say, a few stat points into a skill point.
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TFP did try that once in A17 and it was not well received.
If you look at strength like D&D strength you will always fail to understand the current system. The attributes may be called attributes, but they are classes. Each class needs weapons with corresponding perks and utility perks, otherwise it wouldn't be a complete useable class
Scyris
New member
Best option is most likely to make weapons/tools learn by doing, while having the other perks be stat based. This is how darkness falls does it. Weapons and tools are action skill based, action skill ups damage, dismember and headshot damage, and lets you up the levels of say pummel pete if you use clubs 1,10,20,40,60 for lvs 1-5. It then has some general perks like crafting quality that you can use skill points on or buy the levels from a trader npc after doing enough quests for her. Then it has classes, and each class has their own set of skills. Like hunter has one that allows you to detect zombies around you and flags them but also ups headshot damage with rifles. Farmer, has farming perks and a perk line that buffs shotguns that increase effective range and has other buffs. You unlock classes by crafting a class book that you get the materials from by scrapping other books, and then do a short quest line which gets you some clothing, food, drinks, and a weapon or tool and ammo related to what the class uses. Scientist has perks like physician, Yeah! Science and other things. There is also a class mastery with for most classes unlocks unique craft recipes unique to that class.
Its a far better system than what vanilla current has, and its an actual class system that has weapons detached from them as the basic weapon perks are based on action skill in that weapon type, since they are learn by doing skills, you choose which you wanna level.
The skill system is basically based off a16.4 which was by far the best skill system 7dtd has ever had. Only reason people say otherwise is because they never played a16.4 they only played whats available now so they have no idea there used to be a better system in the game. The crafting stuff being linked to action skill was a a15 thing, and I hated that part as well, but that was fixed in a16, and made its own skill line gated by char level. It'd not be too hard to have a learn by doing system for weapons and tools, and also keep magazines for determining craft quality.
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Stranded_Napkin
New member
Much of what I've seen has been due to the RPG elements. You can absolutely cheese things now. If you spec specifically for things, you can speed run the magazines. Add the chance a magazine counts as two with the Nerd outfit, and you can speed it up even further. That's the thing though, there's always a way to cheese things with RPG elements.
Typically though, things do not move that quickly. I have played multiple playthroughs since 1.0 has hit experimental, and your case seems to be the exception. That is an insane pace.
warmer
Well-known member
Your perspective is NOT that of a new player. This is what so many people fail to understand when they talk about balance. If you have been playing this game for 10 years, you have been mentally min maxing on auto pilot for just about as long. No new player will play like this. You are a veteran and know all the tricks to level quickly and obtain loot.
Your "personal" experience is not the "typical" experience. In order to fully understand balance, you would need to approach this with virgin eyes, which is impossible in your current state.
Turn on max difficulty, feral sense, and always have them on sprint with max bloodmoon and get back to me this is too easy.
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The only reason? Wrong. IMHO the current skill system is better than A16.4. And I say otherwise even though I played a16.4
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Scyris
New member
How is it better? I really wanna know how? with all the stat gates now? before there was a char lv gate and thats it really for craft quality, and weapons were not locked to stats so you could use what you wanted, get good at it and get the perks. I mean the stats don't even do anything unique anymore they are all the same generic stat, all headshot bonus and dismember chance and thats it. I just cannot see anything about the stat system that makes it better.
Slingblade2040
Active member
Yes that is too easy. The fact you even suggested to turn everything to max shows how ridiculous you are being.
People like you act as if new players are brain dead. That someone playing a game hasn't gone for a damage build or doesn't look for the thing to do best damage. These arent the 90s where information for games wasnt easily available. We have folks watching gamers on twitch, youtube or looking up some stuff on YouTube like builds or guides for almost any game.
Explain to me how a new player wouldn't do quests, buy stuff from the trader and put points into damage perks? What tricks are you talking about if that is literally how any player would play.
Every time folks like you and others talk about new players it's with such a condescending tone that these folks are absolutely terrible at games and have no clue as to what they are doing. Maybe you might be bad at games and have no clue what to do even in a new game but that isn't the case for most people. You are basically saying to a new player oh don't go full damage even though that's how you like to play, also ignore quests, don't loot a lot. What kind of nonsense is that?
That is something you and many others fail to understand that this game has major balance issues from the traders, to the skill system, to the crafting progression to even the food system. It's silly that we are on the verge of the stable release and the game is still in this shape after so many years.
You really want to warm up that age old discussion? For me a perk system means more choice for me without doing stuff repeatedly that I don't really want to do. I can use any weapon I want, just like in A16, and can perk into any weapon I want, I may have to pay more perk points for a weapon in an attribute I haven't perked into, but so what? In an LBD system I would have to use the secondary weapon as often as the primary one, just to be good at it. Now I just choose that it will be as good. For example as an INT player I may decide that a shotgun might be a good secondary oh-@%$#-weapon and a good horde night weapon for me, while mostly using stun baton and turrets in daily POI clearance. In A16 I would still have to use the shotgun almost half the time going through POIs to get better at it, even though I only wanted it for oh-@%$# situations and horde night. Now I can just collect some perk points and my shotgun is ready for the few times I want to use it.
Another example: I want to do a big building project and need to dig a lot of stones for that. As I want to minimize the already huge task I want to start digging for real only when I am already good at it. In A16 I don't have that choice though. Now I have the flexibility to do quests for the first half of the game and put the perk strategically into miner69er. When I start digging I have the good tools and I am good at mining.
A16 always played the same as you started with pistol and mostly went up the ladder to automatic weapon. Now I can choose between weapons that are equally viable as each class (aka attribute) has its own weapon. And next playthrough I can take a different one, right from the start. Or even 2 or 3, even if it takes longer.
LBD is boring because there almost never is a time where you really have to choose. Even if A16 had equally viable weapons you would have to choose a weapon at start of the game and almost exclusively use it. Because using any other secondary weapon makes you fall behind on your first weapon. So normally you make most choices exactly once at the start of the game and then just play that till the end. What a boring progression on rails.
Another example: I want to do a big building project and need to dig a lot of stones for that. As I want to minimize the already huge task I want to start digging for real only when I am already good at it. In A16 I don't have that choice though. Now I have the flexibility to do quests for the first half of the game and put the perk strategically into miner69er. When I start digging I have the good tools and I am good at mining.
A16 always played the same as you started with pistol and mostly went up the ladder to automatic weapon. Now I can choose between weapons that are equally viable as each class (aka attribute) has its own weapon. And next playthrough I can take a different one, right from the start. Or even 2 or 3, even if it takes longer.
LBD is boring because there almost never is a time where you really have to choose. Even if A16 had equally viable weapons you would have to choose a weapon at start of the game and almost exclusively use it. Because using any other secondary weapon makes you fall behind on your first weapon. So normally you make most choices exactly once at the start of the game and then just play that till the end. What a boring progression on rails.
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Riamus
Well-known member
Heh. Just because you like LBD doesn't mean everyone does. I have hated LBD since Morrowind. So how is it better? It isn't LBD.
You need to remember that people have different interests and that not everyone will like the same system, regardless whether they think it is actually a better system or just that they like it better
I never played this way in A16. I mainly used melee/bows while exploring, and pretty much only used guns on horde night. Yes, my gun skills weren't amazing, but they were more than good enough.
Heh. Just because you like LBD doesn't mean everyone does. I have hated LBD since Morrowind. So how is it better? It isn't LBD.
You need to remember that people have different interests and that not everyone will like the same system, regardless whether they think it is actually a better system or just that they like it better
Honestly, I hate LBD 99% of the time as well. But I thought it was better in 7D2D (and Wizardry 6/7/8).
warmer
Well-known member
I have introduced 4 friends to this game and with all of them I had to teach them things about time management and choices because most new player don't understand how incredibly important time management is in this game or you get wrecked. Stamina food/H2O management is also a skill that comes with time. These things have nothing to do with combat minus stamina. These are things you learn over many hours of game play and doing it wrong and paying the price.
My example of maxing all settings is a reaction to how a whiny manifesto to TFP that they haven't made the game perfect for you yet makes me feel. I know you have a @%$#load of hours into the game. So what is the problem? It's not exactly like you want yet.
So mod it. Have agency. Quit your whining.
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Slingblade2040
Active member
Max settings and the nonsense you said has nothing to do with balance. Time management? Skill management for stamina,h20 and food? Dude you gotta be trolling lol. None of those things require any skill in this game or if they do the bar is so low any new player can easily grasp that night zombies go faster, if water or food meter low then eat or drink.
You are acting like this is POE levels of complexity when this is barely above vanilla minecraft.
If your friends had to learn from you then God help them because it's obvious they got bad advice.
This game is literally do trader quest, get end loot, get reward from trader, put point into attributes, put point into damage perk, craft weapon, buy items from trader and repeat till bored.
This is about game balance and how even new players can easily get OP and break game balance just by sticking with their class/attributes and playing the game normally by doing trader quests, looting and collecting rewards.
PoloPoPo
New member
Lvl 6 steel sledgehammer, 99/100 armor magazines, forge, workbench and cement mixer crafted / bought from trader (where you got all the money from?) and plenty of ammo all on day 8?
To me this doesn't sound like default settings at all and if so it is not a playstyle lots of players would have. Especially not newer players.
Moreover, for new players nothing is easy in 7D2D. Wild animal? Dead. Beat a cop or fighter with melee weapon? Dead. Constant food / drink problems lead to stamina problems lead to next death. Regular POI with hidden sleepers more than 2 at once? Dead. Land mine? Dead. It is a constant struggle of play, die, learn, respawn and repeat until you have a good amount of hours played into the game. And even then you understand near to nothing about crafting, base building, skill tree, clothing and so on.
To me this doesn't sound like default settings at all and if so it is not a playstyle lots of players would have. Especially not newer players.
Moreover, for new players nothing is easy in 7D2D. Wild animal? Dead. Beat a cop or fighter with melee weapon? Dead. Constant food / drink problems lead to stamina problems lead to next death. Regular POI with hidden sleepers more than 2 at once? Dead. Land mine? Dead. It is a constant struggle of play, die, learn, respawn and repeat until you have a good amount of hours played into the game. And even then you understand near to nothing about crafting, base building, skill tree, clothing and so on.