PC (UPDATED) Why I don't like "Learning by Reading"

zztong said:
I guessing this would be for weapons and armor -- at least that's where I observe this issue. I'm typically taking those Perks to get the advantages related to stamina or mobility, not the magazines. As you and @meganoth both have said, you can get the equipment in other ways. I look upon those magazines as a "floor." I will eventually be able to craft a Tier 5 if I don't get one through another means. I take the magazines as they come and I'm happy. In other areas of crafting, such as farming or cooking, the magazines work really well. This is far from "complete idiocy." Rather, I'd say A21 is the first exposure and it is likely to be tweaked and adjusted.

I've been playing a "traderless" game, where I remove the traders from the map before play. That really slows the game down and the crafting/magazines have been kind of cool. It's a slow progression. My sense is you're after a very fast progression, so you're probably not into that variant.
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I guess if trades wasn't spawned at first. I had complete different expirience with the game. Because he's balance was busted, that actually give high-end rewards by passing very boring quests. Because again - looting POI's without quest is kind of pointless.

Its like two bath's. One with cold water and second with hot. And you like jumping from first to second every time

Again I have 1k+ hours in Project Zomboid, and I did not feel that there is such a miscalculation there since the whole balance was uniformly slow. There was no "trader" to give me end-game level rewards.

 
beerfly said:
Got around 3k hours solo and around 2.3k in multiplayer. I think it is pretty good calculated. Also balance is still a thing till everything is added, till gold.
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7.5k hours here in about 6 years, that's over 1k hours per alpha cycle, 99% of that is in singleplayer. I don't claim to be the be-all-end-all measuring stick, but I also think the game is doing quite well catering towards the singleplayer crowd. :)

I saw a post on the subreddit recently where someone couldn't understand how people find vanilla enjoyable after a hundred hours, and all they've played since are overhaul mods. About 7k of my hours are in vanilla. TL;DR: Your experience isn't everyone else's. You don't have to understand it, just accept it as fact. 😛

 
MechanicalLens said:
7.5k hours here in about 6 years, that's over 1k hours per alpha cycle, 99% of that is in singleplayer. I don't claim to be the be-all-end-all measuring stick, but I also think the game is doing quite well catering towards the singleplayer crowd. :)

I saw a post on the subreddit recently where someone couldn't understand how people find vanilla enjoyable after a hundred hours, and all they've played since are overhaul mods. About 7k of my hours are in vanilla. TL;DR: Your experience isn't everyone else's. You don't have to understand it, just accept it as fact. 😛
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If there a plenty of people typing about bad vanila - maybe its a real problem then. Idk about your tastes, but im pretty sure you have own opinion what's in "this alpha" is missing/need to be fixed/need to be balanced and etc. From my perspective - almost 75-80% of game design for me needed to be changed through xml files. Or i could just download overhaul mods like undead legacy

And funny part about that, i did everything right. Last update on this mod was in A20. And when i tried to launch it. It just crashes, like i have exact version that mod is needed. Im trying to do RWG world. And game just gives up. I guess old mods are unplayable?

 
Unamelable said:
And funny part about that, i did everything right. Last update on this mod was in A20. And when i tried to launch it. It just crashes, like i have exact version that mod is needed. Im trying to do RWG world. And game just gives up. I guess old mods are unplayable?
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Correct, you cannot use an A20 mod with A21. The ModInfo.xml format changed and that has to be updated. After that, the detailed changes within the Mod may, or may not, work depending on what they were trying to do.

MechanicalLens said:
7.5k hours here in about 6 years, that's over 1k hours per alpha cycle, 99% of that is in singleplayer. I don't claim to be the be-all-end-all measuring stick, but I also think the game is doing quite well catering towards the singleplayer crowd.
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I agree with this. I'm over 4k hours now having started largely with A19. Mostly-vanilla is my preferred way to play, but purely Vanilla is fine too. I think it does well in the small-team arena too. That is, if I watch something on Twitch, it is often a few friends playing Vanilla with, or without Twitch integration. Part of that is my self-selection as I don't know the Overhauls very well so I don't tend to watch people play them.

Unamelable said:
Because again - looting POI's without quest is kind of pointless.
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I can agree with this, to a point. Traders definitely have a measurable and significant impact on game play. They're also a bottleneck on a couple of technologies (water filter). They're also (as of A21) a relief valve when it comes to acquiring a cooking pot and grill. Quests let you earn more faster because the trader gives you both Dukes and a reward. If you're on a server, you may face a situation where all of the POIs have been looted and you might need the Quest to be able to reset the POI.

But raiding a POI isn't pointless because you will still get POI loot and still have the option for salvage. If you take away traders, it is the game.

Unamelable said:
If there a plenty of people typing about bad vanila - maybe its a real problem then.
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You can see how this statement isn't really actionable or influential, right? It contains opinion, not data. "Plenty of people" is your impression based on what you read, possibly influenced by confirmation bias. Everyone will assume "the silent majority" is on their side. That is, your opposition will say "Plenty of people are happily playing Vanilla." The only folks who have a chance to really know is the Devs as they can see the stats.

But I'm not saying "shutup and sit down." The forums exist for discussion. Sometimes the words of individuals, like you, like me, find their way through all the voices and resonate with a Dev. Shouting louder isn't the key to being heard.

 
Unamelable said:
If there a plenty of people typing about bad vanila - maybe its a real problem then. Idk about your tastes, but im pretty sure you have own opinion what's in "this alpha" is missing/need to be fixed/need to be balanced and etc. From my perspective - almost 75-80% of game design for me needed to be changed through xml files. Or i could just download overhaul mods like undead legacy
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You not liking something doesn't mean its bad. Other people not liking something doesn't mean its bad. You can't please everyone--nor should you. And you don't have to take my word for it. Below is a video from Tim Cain, the producer of the first Fallout game and the co-director of Outerworlds, discussing this topic. 

There's nothing wrong with offering constructive criticism. But that is not what you are doing. You are repeatedly claiming that the game is poorly designed because you don't like the choices the devs made. Sometimes a game just isn't for you.







 
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Unamelable said:
From my perspective - almost 75-80% of game design for me needed to be changed through xml files.
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This is a clear indication that the game is just not what you like. I don't enjoy RTS games. Their design is about 75-80% distasteful to me and I never spend money on them. When a game is 75-80% unpleasant, that isn't a simple situation of fix a few things and you're good. 1.0 is dropping very soon and the devs aren't going to be changing 75-80% of the game into something different than it already is. Maybe an overhaul mod can save the game for you but most of them haven't been created to to speed up progression any faster than the vanilla game. They make the progression deeper and more complex but not really faster. I'd say most fans of this game enjoy a longer lasting progression than you do and that includes most of the fans who know how to mod and are creating mods.

I get it. You like open world survival games with a heavy dose of sandbox gameplay and this game looked like it fit the bill but when you got into playing it you realized it had too much RPG-ness and random factors that remove control of the progression pacing from the player and you hate that. It wasn't something you were expecting. And to make matters worse, there weren't enough options in the top menu to configure the game more to the way you would enjoy it.  If I bought this game and it had a ton of RTS gameplay packed in I wouldn't really enjoy it either and if I wasn't expecting it I would be disappointed that I paid money for it.

A lot of your QOL suggestions are good and have a good chance of being implemented. But most of your suggestions that run contrary to the design goals of the developers are just not going to happen. Maybe if you outline exactly what you want out of the game and post it in the modding discussion and requests subforum your vision will spark the interest of a modder looking for an idea for a new overhaul mod. That is more likely to happen than that 1.0 or 1.1 or 1.2 or 1.3 will change the game around by 75-80% to your liking from what it is now.

 
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zztong said:
I agree with this. I'm over 4k hours now having started largely with A19. Mostly-vanilla is my preferred way to play, but purely Vanilla is fine too. I think it does well in the small-team arena too. That is, if I watch something on Twitch, it is often a few friends playing Vanilla with, or without Twitch integration. Part of that is my self-selection as I don't know the Overhauls very well so I don't tend to watch people play them.
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What's important for everyone to try to remember, myself included, is that everyone has their own tastes and needs to keep the experience enjoyable for them. Regardless of what "side" you're on, one's experience is never the be all and end all, and the line between subjective and objective poor game design can become muddied in the minds of many. For instance, I've barely dabbled into overhaul mods over the many thousands of hours into this game, and I'm in the minority. That doesn't make my experience inferior, nor does it make any modaholic's experience individually worth more weight either, unless you're looking from a number's perspective (i.e. the lifetime longevity of a game). Mods are important, and no game can realistically comparatively survive for long without them. While for the fabled water change, bringing that up as an example, many players would have appreciated a little more flexibility in TFP's decision-making via listening to community feedback, I feel like with whatever decision they could possibly make, people would always pick up the rose and complain about the thorns.

Basically, at least from my experience, I have to work on not @%$#ing as much and focus on the aspects of the game I do like while acknowledging that any change I don't like is either out of the principle that humans are resistant to change, or that it's just my perspective among many. :)

 
I took some time to customize the game to my liking. And now I have the experience I would have wanted to have originally. Again I don't understand why you couldn't have a separate menu for customizing everything, I have a complaint about editing XML configurations. But I think it's better, as many things can be crammed into one line without rewriting vanilla parameters as it would obviously conflict. I do expect TFP in UI Overhaul to emphasize this as I don't think it's convenient to write modifications independently to change a couple of values.

I think it is possible to create a script that will scan vanilla .xml files of configurations. So you can quickly convert them into an "xpath" function. I was thinking about doing this so I could torture ChatGPT about it. I absolutely suck at coding though, so hopefully my request will be of interest to someone.

If we take the easiest way in the form of changing parameters in the /config folder itself. When reinstalling/checking the game for integrity these configurations will be erased. By inserting it into the /mods folder, I can copy the backup to my GoogleDrive. So I won't have to do it all over again (unless of course TFP changes some mechanics which means I have to update mods or rewrite some values again). Although they update the game very rarely so that's the least of the problems. During this time you can enjoy the game enough.

 
  • Accurate ADS and No Crosshair, Speaks for itself, removes the interfering sight from the gun's front sight
  • Alter_CropPickupBonus, Allows you to pick up plants without having to spend stamina on hand swings.
  • Craft Rebalance, I haven't been able to change the values of craft items yet. I left it for later, I didn't really bother with vanilla craft values, except for the lack of some things.
  • Dewtas-Better-Backback, Since the game doesn't provide enough room for massive sorties. Installed this mod, also makes the interface smaller so it looks nicer on a 1080p monitor.
  • FastCrafting, Removes the timer from crafting, I'm not happy with the craft time which can quietly go up to 2 hours of real time, and higher.
  • fastgrowth, Changes the growing time if I'm going to do a large farm plot. True with farm plot crafting I need to reduce the value of decomposing meat. After all, we can't get it from zombies (unless it's a decoration). And personally I had serious problems with its extraction and crafting.
  • Fov Changer, Banal QoL, I'm the kind of person who plays Minecraft on Quake Pro and has no idea how people can play with a FOV of 90.
  • Less Magazines, Greatly simplifies progression by adding points to those logs that have 50/75/100 divisions. 50/75 add 2 points of progress. 100 adds 3 points of progress.
  • More Zombies, Typical increase in difficulty by quantity. Also makes it much easier to increase experience by (higher threat, higher reward).
  • OcbElectricityWorkarounds, QoL modification fixing some bugs with electronics. Including powering several triggers simultaneously without having to turn on the first trigger on the line.
  • ShowRemainingToClear, QoL modification showing how much is left to kill. Especially useful in Tier 4/5.
  • VehicleSpeedIncrease, A trivial speed boost to all transportation, I play on a maxed out RWG world, and vanilla speed is very much at odds with real transportation. The exception might be a motorbike.
  • WMMShowBloodmoonDayOnCompass, also a banal QoL
  • 0xSteel-QuestsResetOption, Re-rolls missions if you have completed all missions, or have a pool of missions that you really don't want to go through. For example cleanup + fetch or power restoration
  • ALPHA 21 24 7 TRADER, Makes traders open always, in this game either you play with the trader always. Or you cut his spawning to the root
  • Alter_FastTravel, I made it move free (helicopter man requires 1000 dukes as default). Moves from trader to trader. Very convenient feature.
  • cuyd_weather_mod, removes annoying weather conditions that don't give the player close visibility
  • Dewtas-Crafting-QOL, adds craftable consumables like acid, parts for weapons, or dye for equipment. And cloth, oil shale, and mechanical/electrical/polymer parts.
  • Faster Faster Run Speed, is also relevant together with large RWG maps, and greatly diversifies the dynamics of the game together with fast zombies
  • feel-skill_points, Changed the receiving to 2 points, for me it's very critical. And I think that this value is ideal for vanilla game.
  • Less Resources for Upgrading Blocks, for normal block upgrades are reduced to 3 in all material types.
  • NoScreamers, Takes away the annoying Zombie NPC that shows up everywhere when not needed, I really think his mechanics should be overhauled.
  • PickLockedDoors, A thing I've been asking since the beginning. Can't characters open doors with a lockpick if it available in the game?
  • TierIV-V-ClearAFew, Removes the need for a perfect sweep, especially relevant when the situation happens that you can not find the last zombie.
  • WireLength, Increases the length of the wires (I set the maximum number). Since it is not realistic to put relays every 15 blocks in order to create wiring in voluminous rooms. Relays are not designed to simply "improve the spacing" of wires.
  • Less Electric Usage, changes the value of electronic things that significantly affect the load when we have 300W available. Motion Sensor up to 1W. All common triggers like plates, switches, relays have no consumption. All light bulbs have a consumption of 5W

Screenshot_7.png

 
Unamelable said:
I think it is possible to create a script that will scan vanilla .xml files of configurations. So you can quickly convert them into an "xpath" function. I was thinking about doing this so I could torture ChatGPT about it. I absolutely suck at coding though, so hopefully my request will be of interest to someone.
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Isn't this "Mod Gen" by Pseudo Posse? I recall watching a video about it, but I haven't used it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxIm5SdRXmQ

 
Unamelable said:
  • Accurate ADS and No Crosshair, Speaks for itself, removes the interfering sight from the gun's front sight.  Love the front sight
  • Alter_CropPickupBonus, Allows you to pick up plants without having to spend stamina on hand swings.  Too unrealistic, Hand swings are the way
  • Dewtas-Better-Backback, Since the game doesn't provide enough room for massive sorties. Installed this mod, also makes the interface smaller so it looks nicer on a 1080p monitor.  Inventory management is so fun and a big part of what to carry.
  • FastCrafting, Removes the timer from crafting, I'm not happy with the craft time which can quietly go up to 2 hours of real time, and higher.  Might as well as just spawn the stuff in at this point.
  • Fov Changer, Banal QoL, I'm the kind of person who plays Minecraft on Quake Pro and has no idea how people can play with a FOV of 90.  Field of view 90 FTW
  • Less Magazines, Greatly simplifies progression by adding points to those logs that have 50/75/100 divisions. 50/75 add 2 points of progress. 100 adds 3 points of progress.  Now how will I fill my bookshelf?
  • ShowRemainingToClear, QoL modification showing how much is left to kill. Especially useful in Tier 4/5.  I like to hunt zombies though. Need to remove those red dots from the compass-They are easy mode
  • 0xSteel-QuestsResetOption, Re-rolls missions if you have completed all missions, or have a pool of missions that you really don't want to go through. For example cleanup + fetch or power restoration  Might as well just make it so you can pick the quest and POI at that point
  • ALPHA 21 24 7 TRADER, Makes traders open always, in this game either you play with the trader always. Or you cut his spawning to the root. Cause there is no room for anything in the middle.
  • cuyd_weather_mod, removes annoying weather conditions that don't give the player close visibility. There goes that Eerie feeling. No more zombies sneaking up on you. Sounds Fun /S
  • Faster Faster Run Speed, is also relevant together with large RWG maps, and greatly diversifies the dynamics of the game together with fast zombies  Damn you mega crush!!!
  • feel-skill_points, Changed the receiving to 2 points, for me it's very critical. And I think that this value is ideal for vanilla game. Speed Run for all
  • Less Resources for Upgrading Blocks, for normal block upgrades are reduced to 3 in all material types.  All future block upgrades are done with sand, Plentiful and irritating
  • NoScreamers, Takes away the annoying Zombie NPC that shows up everywhere when not needed, I really think his mechanics should be overhauled.  Can't have a sexy screamer party with out them
  • PickLockedDoors, A thing I've been asking since the beginning. Can't characters open doors with a lockpick if it available in the game?  Sliding deadbolt on the other side-Pick that
  • TierIV-V-ClearAFew, Removes the need for a perfect sweep, especially relevant when the situation happens that you can not find the last zombie. Can we get a button that just kills all zombies when you start a quest?  Manually doing it was so 2013
  • Less Electric Usage, changes the value of electronic things that significantly affect the load when we have 300W available. Motion Sensor up to 1W. All common triggers like plates, switches, relays have no consumption. All light bulbs have a consumption of 5W  Bet this guy has a neighbor that has a higher then normal electric bill from poaching
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