PC Bring back water jars or let us craft them!

[pApA^LeGBa]

@RolandAnd then they deceide to do what they wanted in one of the worst ways possible. It´s amazing. Not even half of the people complaining right now would be upset if there was a good solution. And not a device that makes no sense at all and forces you to use the immensly overpowered trader.

Also it´s really just very early game where you have to deceide if you drink or make duct tape. That is over on day 3, with a bit of luck even on day 2. At least in SP unless you are someone who doesn´t loot trash, there is so much glue literally on the streets. (I ended up with looting 10 glue and 5 duct tape on the end of day one) And that´s the next problem with this solution. It hits very differently depending if you play MP or SP. There is nothing enjoyable about having to loot a football field of dew collectors for a party of 4 or 5.

A solution like Undead Legacy for example would have satisfied propably most of the players that are now complaining. Water sources to fill up your jars and bottles are limited. Bodies of water like rivers, seas and ponds are to contaminated to simply make the water safe with boiling, you need sinks, toilets, hydrants and such wich aren´t all usable ofc. You need to progress to unlock a well to finally have a good source of water. That makes way more sense and doesn´t force a playstyle.

 

[Jost Amman]

A solution like Undead Legacy for example would have satisfied propably most of the players that are now complaining. Water sources to fill up your jars and bottles are limited. Bodies of water like rivers, seas and ponds are to contaminated to simply make the water safe with boiling, you need sinks, toilets, hydrants and such wich aren´t all usable ofc.

There is nothing enjoyable about having to loot a football field of dew collectors for a party of 4 or 5.

So I guess in UL you're enjoying running to get water from sink to toilet, to barrel sooo much more...  

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

So I guess in UL you're enjoying running to get water from sink to toilet, to barrel sooo much more...  

No. that´s just until you have a well wich you need to unlock. You compare early game with mid-late game there. Nice strawman. The well is what you need to compare with the dew collector. And you only need one well.

 I mean if you want to make a point, please take everything i said into consideration and not what you need to make a  false counter argument

 

[theFlu]

It was a choice absent from the game until A21 and I think such choices are good gameplay.

Introducing that choice, "can I afford to craft => no", came at the expense of another choice, "can I build a base, or do I need to start questing now?". In my book the loss in choices is far greater than the gain.

 

[Vaeliorin]

It surprises me to still read people who think that the point of the change had anything to do with how much water you end up with. It's like they think TFP were trying to stop players from eventually being able to stockpile all the water they need and want and were trying to make players struggle for water the entire playthrough despite all the communication to the contrary. And no matter how many times it gets repeated that the change was for how we start with dealing with water and the journey of getting to the point where we are flush with water, this old false idea that TFP wants to stop players from ever having an abundance of water keeps coming back.

The water change was to affect the beginning of the game and not the middle or end. Instead of gaining a stack of water jars on day one and never having to put any thought or choice in the actions you take to acquire water or use it since it just naturally ended up in your inventory in stacks from the get-go and with infinitely refillable jars making it so players never really had to ever choose between drinking it and crafting with it--instead of that-- now we often need to choose how to use water in the early days, and sometimes we may have to drink murky water so we can make glue with our clean water, and building a dew collector becomes one of the tasks that joins the mix of other early game tasks we need to juggle and plan for.

As to whether it is all annoying and a worse gameplay loop, all I can say is different strokes for different folks. I like it and enjoy crafting dew collectors and gaining satisfaction from harvesting the water from them. I like that there is enough water to be found to survive but often I must choose whether I use water for drinking or for crafting during the first week. It was a choice absent from the game until A21 and I think such choices are good gameplay.

Does water eventually get solved and become something I never have to worry about or think about? Yes, and that is by design. It isn't something they were trying to change and failed at. But at least water is something never to be worried over only in the mid to late game whereas before it never had to be worried over in the early game either. I've gone back to play A20 as well as some mods that return empty jars and I hate it. It feels like playing with creative mode enabled. But that's me.

I just want to point out that what you find annoying, I find fun and there are probably others just like both of us.

The only real limit on early game water in A21 (at least for me) is the time it takes to cook it.  I've never had to drink murky water, and I usually have 10-15 jars at the end of Day 1.  Hence my point about how it's not really changed anything.  Heck, in my current game I have 18 dew collectors (indoors, because that makes sense...I just wanted them away from zombies) but when I only had a few, I consistently forgot to loot them, but I still had more than enough water.  At this point, I've got 250 water stuck in a box, plus another 35 mineral water for drinking.

I haven't even crafted any glue yet because I haven't needed it (I've been really lucky looting repair kits this playthrough) and I haven't yet crafted a chemistry station.  I don't really see a real need for a lot of glue early game (it's late game that I want it, at which point water is once again trivial.)

I just find it slightly annoying because it's a bunch of extra clicks (for looting all the dew collectors) for, as I see it, no real benefit.

Like I said, I don't hate the change, I just don't really get it.  It's had basically zero effect on my gameplay and so seems somewhat pointless.  I used to have games in A16.4 (when ground water was more scarce) where I'd have to go hunting for a water source, and that was much more of an issue than what we have now (or since they added all the water filled culverts everywhere.) 

Maybe I'm less effected because I've never really bought much at  the trader (usually just magazines/schematics and beakers, with maybe the occasional mod or solar cell) so the cost of water filters doesn't really matter to me, but all the water changes in A21 have done is added the annoying repetitive daily task of looting dew collectors.

 

[FramFramson]

Dew collectors only having 3 jars of storage is pretty stupid, I will actually say that outright. Should be 9 jars minimum.

Luckily there are mods for that, but they require you to turn off EAC, which can complicate things when you're trying to run a server for random people to join.

 

[Jost Amman]

No. that´s just until you have a well wich you need to unlock. You compare early game with mid-late game there. Nice strawman. The well is what you need to compare with the dew collector. And you only need one well.

 I mean if you want to make a point, please take everything i said into consideration and not what you need to make a  false counter argument

No strawman there, I'm comparing UL early game with Vanilla early game.

Vanilla Early game: you need to loot kitchens, toilets and containers for murky water.

UL Early game: you need to loot sinks, toilets and barrels for murky water (sooo much more fun!)

You literally said: "A solution like Undead Legacy for example would have satisfied propably most of the players that are now complaining. Water sources to fill up your jars and bottles are limited. Bodies of water like rivers, seas and ponds are to contaminated to simply make the water safe with boiling, you need sinks, toilets, hydrants and such wich aren´t all usable ofc."

I'll give you that for what regards the well, as you describe it, sounds like it makes collecting murky water much quicker, but on the flip-side, you only need one to solve the water problem, which in my opinion, sounds way OP.

Introducing that choice, "can I afford to craft => no", came at the expense of another choice, "can I build a base, or do I need to start questing now?". In my book the loss in choices is far greater than the gain.

Maybe. But this new water mechanics is at its first iteration, so we can expect some balancing in A22.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Jost Amman Well you used my quote where i said that collecting from a football field of dew collectors is no fun and said i enjoy running to sinks etc. So yes it looks like you compared early to mid/late game.

And one well is OP? Really? It´s not like emptying dew collectors takes half a day or something. It´s just annoying af. One well is OP. Wow. Saying it´s OP when you need to do quests now to be able to afford water filters wich grant you OP rewards is really something.

It´s a better system, it makes actually sense, it´s actually hard to get water as not every sink, toilet or hydrant gives you water, it doesn´t force you to use the OP trader.

 

[Jost Amman]

And one well is OP? Really? It´s not like emptying dew collectors takes half a day or something. It´s just annoying af. One well is OP. Wow. Saying it´s OP when you need to do quests now to be able to afford water filters wich grant you OP rewards is really something.

Look, don't make me laugh. Are you really comparing the effort to build ONE well to the effort necessary to setup (in your own words) a football field of dew collectors?

You have lost the sense of proportions man. Are you receiving money or something from the developer of UL by any chance?

Because, you know, your extreme effort to boast how UL is the best ever mod is becoming quite funny.

Yes, ONE well with infinite water is OP. What part of INFINITE did you miss?

How is that counterintuitive in your mind? Unless you're competely devoid of common sense, I can't see how you'd think otherwise.

Well you used my quote where i said that collecting from a football field of dew collectors is no fun and said i enjoy running to sinks etc. So yes it looks like you compared early to mid/late game.

I was using that example to tell you that if middle-late game seems more fun in UL for you, the same mod makes early game much less fun than vanilla.

So, in that regard, your statement was a necessary quote. Sorry if I wasn't clearer, but I thought you'd understand the context.

 

[theFlu]

Maybe. But this new water mechanics is at its first iteration, so we can expect some balancing in A22.

Hmm... I don't think it's a case of simple balancing, but what do you have in mind? What would solve it?

 

[Roland]

Introducing that choice, "can I afford to craft => no", came at the expense of another choice, "can I build a base, or do I need to start questing now?". In my book the loss in choices is far greater than the gain.

lol...what? People are playing no-quest playthroughs. I think that establishes that there very much is still a choice between building a base first or questing first. Think up a new one...

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Look, don't make me laugh. Are you really comparing the effort to build ONE well to the effort necessary to setup (in your own words) a football field of dew collectors?

You have lost the sense of proportions man. Are you receiving money or something from the developer of UL by any chance?

Because, you know, your extreme effort to boast how UL is the best ever mod is becoming quite funny.

Yes, ONE well with infinite water is OP. What part of INFINITE did you miss?

How is that counterintuitive in your mind? Unless you're competely devoid of common sense, I can't see how you'd think otherwise.

I was using that example to tell you that if middle-late game seems more fun in UL for you, the same mod makes early game much less fun than vanilla.

So, in that regard, your statement was a necessary quote. Sorry if I wasn't clearer, but I thought you'd understand the context.

No i don´t even like UL in general. But i like the water system a lot more than what we have now. And i would gladly support any other system that any modder comes up with that is better. No matter if i like the rest of the mod or not. I don´t say it´s perfect i say it´s better. That´s an importnant difference.

Also you act like building dew collectors and gathering the parts for it is the pinnacle of survival game play. It´s not. Again to be able to build dew collectors you have to do quests. At the already overpowered trader. The mechanic basically forces you to get OP quest rewards. Buying the filter isn´t really a challenge. Even buying a lot of them isn´t. Thx to the whole trader/quest system beeing so highly unbalanced.

Is that really your idea of a good gameplay to force people using the trader? Look at 99% of all other survival games. Water isn´t an issue there. Not even in the really hard ones.

If they want more and harder survival gameplay there is other things they should do.

Anyways, trying to get on a kinda personal level in your argumentation tells me enough. Have a good one.

 

[BFT2020]

Introducing that choice, "can I afford to craft => no", came at the expense of another choice, "can I build a base, or do I need to start questing now?". In my book the loss in choices is far greater than the gain.

I play no repairs allowed for items and haven't had an issue to adjust to the new system.  It hasn't removed my choice to do that plus build a base.  I even removed the quest rewards from the traders so not sure what issues you are having to craft items or a base in the game.

 

[theFlu]

lol...what? People are playing no-quest playthroughs. I think that establishes that there very much is still a choice between building a base first or questing first. Think up a new one...

Yes, you can do "no quests", you can also do "no traders". But you're still going to be spamlooting POIs for the H2O. If you're not questing while spamlooting POIs, in vanilla, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. Sure, gimping yourself is a choice, indeed. Yay.

I can also start a base-day-one challenge, and die of thirst repeatedly while building. Nothing's stopping me from that either. I guess I'll need to just laugh while doing so and things will be fine. That's a newly introduced choice too, so, yay for more choices.

what issues you are having to craft items or a base in the game.

I'm not. I just find Roland's claim that "introducing a choice between drinking and crafting is somehow an improvement" a little thin. It comes at the expense of logic and a "wilderness survival" way of playing the game.

For vanilla, POIs = questing. My single sentence snark didn't properly contain that bit. Apologies.

 

[Jost Amman]

Maybe. But this new water mechanics is at its first iteration, so we can expect some balancing in A22.

Hmm... I don't think it's a case of simple balancing, but what do you have in mind? What would solve it?

I think it depends an whether they want to lean back to real survival or forward even more to the looter-shooter trend.

I hope for the former, and in that case my idea of balancing would be to make water and drinks less available from vending machines and the trader, while at the same time making it more frequent to be able to get a filter from the world.

I'd even go for a special quest where you can only get a filter as a sort of quest reward (like a 90% chance to find the filter in the water treatment plant, for example).

As for water itself, I'd simply make the free hands action on water to give you back a jar of radiated water, and add a more complex way for purifying it.

Also you act like building dew collectors and gathering the parts for it is the pinnacle of survival game play. It´s not. Again to be able to build dew collectors you have to do quests. At the already overpowered trader. The mechanic basically forces you to get OP quest rewards. Buying the filter isn´t really a challenge. Even buying a lot of them isn´t. Thx to the whole trader/quest system beeing so highly unbalanced.

I never said that building dew collector was the "pinnacle" of anything, don't use hyperboles on me to make it look like I'm talking nonsense.

It was you who said build ONE well in UL is sooo much better.

I can agree on the fact that traders are currently OP, and I'll tell you even more: traders are the ones that are really unbalancing the game right now and making it sometimes repetitive and "boring", if you fall in that trap. Not water.

P.S.: @Roland I asked ages ago if it could be possible, when mergin posts, to have a new line put between them... please, PLEASE, make this happen!

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I can agree on the fact that traders are currently OP, and I'll tell you even more: traders are the ones that are really unbalancing the game right now and making it sometimes repetitive and "boring", if you fall in that trap. Not water.

And hence every system that does rely on the trader can´t be good.  And water does rely on the trader and in case of MP Coop also on quests unless you want a coop game where everyone goes looting on their own. Wich is not the point of playing coop. And even if the trader would be balanced the system would suck because it forces the use of the trader, forcing you into the ecosystem of heavy looting and selling.

And no you didn´t say anything about it beeing the pinnacle. I said you act like it is. Small but importnant difference.

But the most important thing is that the current system doesn´t achieve two of the three points that madmole said they wanted to achieve. There is no decision between crafting and drinking in early game due to a lot of glue and duct tape in loot (and i am only talking about looting trash here) and getting water early game is still easy af. (In SP that is, but that there is this huge difference between MP and SP is yet another downside for the current system)

Like i said, i am not saying we need the UL system and that it´s the only one that´s acceptable. We just need something better than what we have now and while the system from UL isn´t perfect either, it´s way better.

 

[theFlu]

I think it depends an whether they want to lean back to real survival or forward even more to the looter-shooter trend.

Seems we largely agree on what we'd want; your example of reducing POI water and adding treatment for natural waters would be mostly acceptable to me (with a proper balance ). I just don't think it would be seen as a "rebalancing" by TFP, it'd be a redesign. The big feature changes introduced in A21 (water, books) seem to be in the direction of "quest more, or else", and the introduction of physics-breaking spawn mechanics seem to indicate they're planning for FPS/quest spam to be da wae.

 

[Rotor]

 in the direction of "quest more, or else", and the introduction of physics-breaking spawn mechanics seem to indicate they're planning for FPS/quest spam to be da wae.

I hope not........but I fear such is the trend of games that start sandboxy and then the masses demand "content". ...or be lead into content.

As long as some of this stuff doesnt become hard code that you cant get out of it via mods.

Maybe this year I will have more time to learn and actually get on with my own vision.

 

[Stranded_Napkin]

That's not what I meant and I edited my post for clarification.   What I mean is, that it would take a lot of time and effort to implement from start to finish.   Creating anything new or adapting anything old has the chance to break something in the process.

actually, it would take maybe 30 minutes. It's literally just an addition of a tool in a workstation. I did that @%$# several times over. Now, if they want to make it work where you just have to have a filter in your inventory, that would take a bit more to implement. Still, not as much time as you're suggesting, but longer than adding a tool to a workstation.

 

[meganoth]

Look at 99% of all other survival games. Water isn´t an issue there. Not even in the really hard ones.

If they want more and harder survival gameplay there is other things they should do.

There is no indication they want **harder** gameplay. Or even **more** survival. I would guess this is just polishing the game to remove micro-mamagement without at least some form of gameplay involved.

Probably those 99% of survival games without water issues leave out water and the need to drink completely.

And that is probably the choice TFP had as well: Either remove water and thirst as they don't contribute to gameplay, or add a mechanic that makes it into a typical survival item that is somewhat scarce and needs to be collected, like anything else. Actually it is a resource that is almost exactly as scarce or plentiful as food, i.e. veterans complain there is too much of it and new players complain that they don't find enough.