PC Shotgun slugs feel unbalanced now with b323

[FranticDan]

damage isn't everything.

You're right, however, damage is the only thing that was changed (to my knowledge) between the two versions. Sure, slugs do more damage than shells (at great distances), but only from about 7 metres onwards do they equalise and THEN slugs do more dmg.


Shells doing 100 dmg at about 7 metres (Insane difficulty)


 

Slugs doing 92 dmg at about 7.5 metres (Insane difficulty)

 

[BFT2020]

You're right, however, damage is the only thing that was changed (to my knowledge) between the two versions. Sure, slugs do more damage than shells (at great distances), but only from about 7 metres onwards do they equalise and THEN slugs do more dmg.

Shells doing 100 dmg at about 7 metres (Insane difficulty)
 

Slugs doing 92 dmg at about 7.5 metres (Insane difficulty)
 

How is the damage output on average when facing zombies that are moving and not stationary?  Are you still outmatching the slugs or with a moving zombie, are you missing more with pellets so your overall damage output is decreasing while the slugs are being more consistent?

I also noticed your mod selection.  Your picked mods specifically to improve the spread of shots so you will get a tighter cluster all the time.  This favors the min-max approach where you are picking the upgrades on your weapon to maximize the damage output from a specific ammo type.

Would you see the same damage output comparison if you went a different route in regards to mod selection, like:

• Pump - tube extender, choke, rad remover, cripple em
  
• Auto - same setup but Drum magazine in place of tube extender
  

 

[FranticDan]

How is the damage output on average when facing zombies that are moving and not stationary?  Are you still outmatching the slugs or with a moving zombie, are you missing more with pellets so your overall damage output is decreasing while the slugs are being more consistent?

I also noticed your mod selection.  Your picked mods specifically to improve the spread of shots so you will get a tighter cluster all the time.  This favors the min-max approach where you are picking the upgrades on your weapon to maximize the damage output from a specific ammo type.

Would you see the same damage output comparison if you went a different route in regards to mod selection, like:

• Pump - tube extender, choke, rad remover, cripple em
  
• Auto - same setup but Drum magazine in place of tube extender
  

I haven't bothered using slugs since the change, because why would I want to drastically lower my damage?

Before the change, slugs did about 5% less dmg across the board, and I was happy to change from shells for the slightly less dmg,
while now, slugs are only good when using Pipe and Double. (Especially the Pipe!!)
Shells are best for Pumpy and Auto.

Regarding mods, I typically get at least 2 or 3 points in Run and Gun (I mostly only hipfire), so changing the mods around like you listed would probably widen the spread slightly as seen in my screenshots, so shots at 7 metres would be harder to get all pellets. However, I use shotguns in close quarters so my shots are easier to hit the head. I use other guns for range.
With my playstyle, I easily line up zombies so I can take out groups quickly, even quicker with shells since they do about 70% more dmg than slugs now (Auto)
So if 4/10 pellets missed, the dmg would be about the same.

There's also only 2 entities that slugs have a big effect on, soldier and demo, as they have 50 and 60 armour. The biker and utility only have 20, so it's very obvious that shells are the superior ammo type now in the late/end game

 

[Lamblaska]

How is the damage output on average when facing zombies that are moving and not stationary?  Are you still outmatching the slugs or with a moving zombie, are you missing more with pellets so your overall damage output is decreasing while the slugs are being more consistent?

I also noticed your mod selection.  Your picked mods specifically to improve the spread of shots so you will get a tighter cluster all the time.  This favors the min-max approach where you are picking the upgrades on your weapon to maximize the damage output from a specific ammo type.

Would you see the same damage output comparison if you went a different route in regards to mod selection, like:

• Pump - tube extender, choke, rad remover, cripple em
  
• Auto - same setup but Drum magazine in place of tube extender
  

Adding to that. I do think the test he did is an interesting one. But as he also increases the effective range of the shell ammo, he also increase the range effectiveness of the slug ammo. Basically he's comparing both of them at a near effective range of the shell  I think it would be interesting to add the following tests:
 

• 4 Meters
  
  2 zombies em line
  
• 2 zombies side by side
  

[*]8 Meters

• 
  2 zombies in line
  
• 2 zombies side by side
  

[*]12 Meters

• 
  2 zombies in line
  
• 2 zombies side by side
  

But I really understand that if the same doesn't happen in lower tier shotguns, it is not consistent somehow. 

 

[Manserk]

Also, slugs take polymers to craft, which you don't have much of because of dew collectors.

 

[pookandpie]

Is this issue with slugs still persisting in the following updates of A21?

 

[FranticDan]

Is this issue with slugs still persisting in the following updates of A21?

Very much so, slugs being nerfed into the ground is a feature and not a bug at this point. You're best to use slugs with the Pipe and Double shotguns, stick with shells when using Pump and Auto

 

[Uncle Al]

Is it possible slugs got tweaked in other ways, when they didn't get a proportional damage increase?

I only noticed recently that the .44 magnum penetrates one target when using normal ammunition. That's a huge bonus to what would otherwise be an unremarkable weapon, for its tier, and it doesn't appear to be documented anywhere at all.

 

[theFlu]

That's a huge bonus to what would otherwise be an unremarkable weapon, for its tier, and it doesn't appear to be documented anywhere at all.

I think that's from the book set, the completion bonus. Maybe, with a dash of iirc

 

[Uncle Al]

I think that's from the book set, the completion bonus. Maybe, with a dash of iirc

I'm sure I didn't have a full set of Magnum Enforcer on that playthrough. I found a magnum suprisingly early. You could well be right though. That would explain it.

 

[FranticDan]

Is it possible slugs got tweaked in other ways, when they didn't get a proportional damage increase?

The ammo item itself got buffed from 96 to 102 dmg, however, due to the bonus damage bonus from the Pump and Auto, shells get 10x most boost than the slugs since shells are 10 projectiles.
I could look at the xml from A20 and compare the slugs in A21, but last I checked I only noticed the change to dmg

 

[pookandpie]

Very much so, slugs being nerfed into the ground is a feature and not a bug at this point. You're best to use slugs with the Pipe and Double shotguns, stick with shells when using Pump and Auto

Ah, that's a real shame. Thank you for the information.

I guess all the polymer we're stacking up will be used for explosive bolts on my crossbow rather than slugs!

 

[Uncle Al]

The ammo item itself got buffed from 96 to 102 dmg, however, due to the bonus damage bonus from the Pump and Auto, shells get 10x most boost than the slugs since shells are 10 projectiles.
I could look at the xml from A20 and compare the slugs in A21, but last I checked I only noticed the change to dmg

Yeah I was kind of reaching, because it really seems to me that this is a bug/oversight. It's reasonable that slugs might have lower total damage, compared to a shell where every pellet hits, but the proportion by which that damage is lower should be the same across all weapon tiers.

The fact that the disparity is due to shotgun damage being increased, but not scaled for slugs, reinforces this.

Has anyone put a bug report in on this, and if so, did it come back 'working as intended'?

 

[FranticDan]

Yeah I was kind of reaching, because it really seems to me that this is a bug/oversight. It's reasonable that slugs might have lower total damage, compared to a shell where every pellet hits, but the proportion by which that damage is lower should be the same across all weapon tiers.

The fact that the disparity is due to shotgun damage being increased, but not scaled for slugs, reinforces this.

Has anyone put a bug report in on this, and if so, did it come back 'working as intended'?

A QA tester responded to this post months ago and said they'll look into it. Considering the fact that nothing has been done about it to address what looks like an blantant oversight suggests to me its not an oversight at all. I don't think a bug report has been mode regarding this.

Ah, that's a real shame. Thank you for the information.

I guess all the polymer we're stacking up will be used for explosive bolts on my crossbow rather than slugs!

Yep! I used to get excited whenever I found the slugs book, now I don't even care, its just another almost useless book now that only helps to unlock bulk crafting

 

[meganoth]

A QA tester responded to this post months ago and said they'll look into it. Considering the fact that nothing has been done about it to address what looks like an blantant oversight suggests to me its not an oversight at all. I don't think a bug report has been mode regarding this.

Considering the other fact that some bugs existed for multiple alphas suggests to me that some stuff simply falls behind drawers. A "successful" bug report is what keeps it at least on an important list so it isn't forgotten. But if some tester just said they will look into it there is a real change he just forgot it afterwards and it effectively is lost in time.

 

[Jugginator]

Considering the other fact that some bugs existed for multiple alphas suggests to me that some stuff simply falls behind drawers. A "successful" bug report is what keeps it at least on an important list so it isn't forgotten. But if some tester just said they will look into it there is a real change he just forgot it afterwards and it effectively is lost in time.

Nope, not forgotten. Just balancing goes way deeper than just damage numbers . Slugs did get their wood/loot container-destroying nature reduced, since the penetration did lead to POI Swiss cheese. 

 

[Uncle Al]

Considering the other fact that some bugs existed for multiple alphas suggests to me that some stuff simply falls behind drawers. A "successful" bug report is what keeps it at least on an important list so it isn't forgotten. But if some tester just said they will look into it there is a real change he just forgot it afterwards and it effectively is lost in time.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

I will try and put one in, but it's a bit of a (totally understandable) faff as I'll need to create a game just to have a log file, or it won't pass the acceptance process and the report will never actually get accepted.

 

[Jugginator]

I've started some in-depth testing on this, no report needed. I've noticed a few things that's throwing balance off a little bit, not entirely damage-related, facets such as range of dismemberment/penetration are a bigger part of it. WIP.

 

[Scyris]

Considering the other fact that some bugs existed for multiple alphas suggests to me that some stuff simply falls behind drawers. A "successful" bug report is what keeps it at least on an important list so it isn't forgotten. But if some tester just said they will look into it there is a real change he just forgot it afterwards and it effectively is lost in time.

There is a bug with water and stamina regen that has been here since a17 and is still not fixed. If you go below 74% water you get hit with a 20% stam regen penalty, there is no UI tool tip, no xml reference either for this debuff. this debuff USED to be in a16.4 and had proper tool tip/icon etc, but these were removed in a17 and the debuff was supposed to be moved to under 50% water. However, it seems the devs forgot to remove the orignal debuff from the code, as even today in a21.2 you can still lose 20% stam regen once your water hits 74% and lower. Like I said you won't find this debuff in the xml's anywhere, as its a hard coded debuff it seems that needs to be removed by TFP. Its been reported multiple times and nothing is ever done to fix it, even after its been confirmed to be an issue.

As for the shotgun slugs, I can admit i've never used them, vanilla shotguns have a debuff they place on anything hit that forces them to walk speed, its there on every shotgun, and as you get the perk the debuff lasts longer, it Starts at 4s, then 6s and finally 8s. You can backpedal faster than zombies can walk so with a shotgun even within 4 blocks nothing should be able to get to you if you keep shooting. This is part what makes the shotgun so good, its not just the high damage per shot/ammo, its the slow as well that makes it very useful bascially for anything. Mind you shotguns do suck for horde night due to the poor range depending on base design, the design I use for example the zombies are 13 blocks away from where I shoot, so buckshot basically is useless till they break 2 sets of bars to get closer.

 

[FranticDan]

There is a bug with water and stamina regen that has been here since a17 and is still not fixed. If you go below 74% water you get hit with a 20% stam regen penalty, there is no UI tool tip, no xml reference either for this debuff. this debuff USED to be in a16.4 and had proper tool tip/icon etc, but these were removed in a17 and the debuff was supposed to be moved to under 50% water. However, it seems the devs forgot to remove the orignal debuff from the code, as even today in a21.2 you can still lose 20% stam regen once your water hits 74% and lower. Like I said you won't find this debuff in the xml's anywhere, as its a hard coded debuff it seems that needs to be removed by TFP. Its been reported multiple times and nothing is ever done to fix it, even after its been confirmed to be an issue.

A modder @w00kien00kie has made a modlet that fixes this bug, I've been using it for the past 2 months or so, its amazing! I'm not sure if it's public though