PC What was the point of the water change?
- Thread starter GlassDeviant
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Kalen
New member
Have to disagree strongly here. At least for me. To me, its about realism. Yeah, I know, a zombie game isn't real to begin with, but you have to have realistic elements in the game to keep it grounded. How much realism you're willing to sacrifice for the sake of gameplay is going to be different depending on the person. As far as I'm concerned, having a water survival component but not allow people to bottle up water at water source crosses that line of what I find acceptable.
Like I said before, its not a huge deal and I can still enjoy the game.... but, I personally think this was a bad change. If it truly was about making all containers work the same way, there was a great suggestion earlier in this thread that would've accomplished the same thing. Make it so you can gather jars of murky water from open sources of water.
And I said before that there usually is more than just one reason for a change. Have you really missed all the talk about reasons number 2: making water scarce (... for some people. I'll add this so we don't get into an argument loop)
Also you should ask yourself, how much this change is jarring for you because of its realism nerf and how much is it because you are used to the game doing it differently before and it is therefore very conspicuous to you?
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Kalen
New member
I ignored that aspect because water isn't really scarce. So if that was part of the reason for the change, its failed.
I have asked myself that and the answer is it's got nothing to do with what I'm used to and everything to do with the reasons I outlined in my previous post. I've played this game for many years and have seen many changes. There have been plenty of changes I've agreed with and plenty I haven't. Whether or not I was used to the way something was very rarely has anything to do with my opinion on its change.
Yeah, so I know we're beating this to death at this point probably but seriously, that aspect is a dismal failure.
Who are the some people. Seems to be 2 groups.
1. Noobs - They are a bad example because they generally find everything scarce and/or difficult that seasoned players don't. Dog packs, fighting, finding a pot, getting their forge, I could go on and on.
2. The "self-challenged" - Some of us are so bored that we mod the game to be harder and/or play under self-imposed limitations or role-playing rules that, let's admit it...it's playing poorly on purpose. While there is something to be said for doing what you've got to do to keep the game interesting for yourself, there are efficient ways to play and these are not it. I am not talking about doing absolutely every cheesy thing either, as some of y'all are defensive about it, but seriously if you aren't hitting the ground running and doing as many quests as you can then you aren't playing very efficiently.
So while I have griped about duct tape, which is the single largest consumer of water, and yes, at first the jarring change (not to mention all the other jarring changes) gave me a bit of...I wouldn't really even say challenge or difficulty...irritation is more like it. It is very irritating to feel like a noob at a game you've been playing for years.
A bit of experimentation and skimming some youtubes and by my 2nd start I was hitting the ground running again. I'm sure a lot of experienced players had the same experience so it is something we may @%$# about but we adapt and get over it quickly. This isn't just the water, all the changes like Kalen said.
I also use more duct tape than average because I use a mod for crafting QL6, which means 1. I probably craft more than others, even though I rely more on quest rewards than crafting. 2. The duct tape cost scales with the QL, a T6 junk turret alone is 60 tape. Once again, it is something that I gripe about because I spend far more time dealing with water/glue/tape than I would like to, but then I have a period of drop what you are doing and collect a ton of springs & mech parts which is also not my favorite activity. No, I am not complaining about scavenging in general, just having to do it en masse. It's a minor complaint at that.
It is also scarce for groups. And at least in A21.1 it still was scarce for me in SP. So I must be a noob because I did not self-challenge myself.
It is quite possible that the balance of water changed from when I started my SP game and the current minor version. Either by accident or on purpose. It is no secret that TFP balances the vanilla game to be playable by new players. It may only be one group but accept that for TFP it is a very important groups. If you now have no problem with water I am sure TFP is shedding crocodile tears but probably considers the change a success because
Exactly. Most problems in 7D2D are either reaction based or can be made rather trivial by playing or looking at youtube videos. Isn't different to other games (best example: almost all Bethesda games).
To say it clearly: TFP surely isn't seeing it as their task to make the game endlessly playable for experienced players. They mentioned before that mods will have to do that, not vanilla. Water and food scarcity (both are non-existent for experienced players) are clear indications for this. Our only "vanilla" hope is that TFP adds a config option for trader like they did for loot and that experienced players are intelligent enough to use those, if they don't want to mod the game.
Rotor
Well-known member
If and when there is a time where quests do more than get you leet gear....I.e. have a storied influence upon the game, then I will consider them. As it stands right now, other than "effecient" gearing, it is just another hamster wheel. Since I play for the "semi" survival aspect, there is no point. The whole trader system is so out of context, IMO (you know how those are) that it is not appealing to me. OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!
.Off topic, sorry.
Who has that dead horse flogging image?
Don't be a pain in the ass
Just because I said there are 2 broad groups doesn't mean everyone has to fit into 1 of them. Generalizations and stereotypes are just that. It is a lot easier than spending another 3 paragraphs discussing all the possibilities.It's true, I tend to gloss over MP and it has been a while since I've had a good MP 7D. The game just didn't really hold the interest of my group and then because of health issues I stopped playing MP really anyway. I still don't really get how people can complain it is harder or items are more scarce, since more people should be more effective than 1. Yes, I get it, we play MP to play together, not to be all spread out all the time. Still sometimes that is the best way to do that. My groups we all tend to have specific jobs. How rigid it is varies greatly from game to game or even session to session. I have spent a great many hours being the "base @%$#" so trust me, I understand the logistics of pretty much any game I play pretty well. While food doesn't seem much of an issue past early game in A21 either, in earlier games we did have a guy who enjoyed hunting and he specialized in it and so part of his routine of course was to break off from the group and provide us all with much needed meat. Another guy really enjoyed mining, and so on and so forth. You can specialize a lot more in MP than SP and these days all perk lines weapon trees are more or less equal. You can find a youtuber doing a playthrough with any weapon these days and they look like the god of war himself. So I'm sorry, I still gotta call bull@%$# on the people who cry that MP is such a struggle and SP has it so easy. Your group needs to adapt their playstyle or play on different settings or mod the game. Git gud nubs!!!
Ahem...anyway...
It would seem most of us (in the discussion) still aren't seeing this "scarcity" you and Roland speak of and nothing we've proposed would really change it either. You did hit it on the head about reality and Kalen summed it up pretty well. So while I will repeat over and over, fun trumps reality, I do expect a certain level of reality. Realistic inventory is not fun (go play Project Zomboid if you think it is). Realistic water is fun.
Like I said in an earlier post, early game everything is scarce and a struggle. How long early game lasts is more the variable. For Roland it seems to be weeks. We'd have to poll the average noob to see how long it lasts for them. For me it is a day or two. For some it is just the first day. For the nightmare-insane-runallthetime-allferal crowd "what is early game? and what struggle?" Of course we would have to agree on a definition of what "early-game" really means, since again it is just a generalization.
To me it is that period when you are getting established, living hand to mouth and feeling very vulnerable, just squatting in a small house or maybe even camping out in front of the trader. Although it isn't the defining moment, 1 of the milestones for me would be getting the bicycle.
Well yeah, and the good or bad of it is another raging debate. I never said I am a fan of the current meta, but I live and die by it.If and when there is a time where quests do more than get you leet gear....I.e. have a storied influence upon the game, then I will consider them. As it stands right now, other than "effecient" gearing, it is just another hamster wheel. Since I play for the "semi" survival aspect, there is no point. The whole trader system is so out of context, IMO (you know how those are) that it is not appealing to me. OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!
Off topic, sorry.
Who has that dead horse flogging image?
Those of you who choose to try and "buck the system" that's on you. I am not judging anyone for playing how they play and even myself my own modding and difficulty setting choices also make my own playstyle very different than others.
Still to have an honest discussion where we are all on the same page, those differences need to be accounted for. When all is said and done the game is balanced around the default settings, not what the rest of us do.
Here you go, I been dragging it around for years:
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zztong
Well-known member
No. I doubt you're a noob.
For me at least, this conversation has illuminated that everyone has their own concept of what scarcity is, their own style of play, their own desired level of difficulties, and their own priorities when playing. While we could compare tastes if we discussed a standard, such as Vanilla with all default settings, we would still be unable to come to consensus because we all have different priorities -- the most striking to me being one extreme (1) a group that wants to undertake a stamina/water intensive activity such as mining during the early game, another extreme (2) a group that looks to solve food and water scarcity immediately during the early game, (3) folks in the middle with other, perhaps more flexible, priorities or an opportunistic style of play.
But if we want to take more concrete goals and determine under what conditions they're achievable using Vanilla with default settings, then I'd be willing to try that.
Perhaps my only real point of evidence that folks might find useful is that to me as a solo player, Vanilla water production via Dew Collectors and looting of 10 water per day is the effective equivalent to "infinite water" made available via mods.
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Rotor
Well-known member
So, for comparison;
I play vanilla + 3 mods, Zombie no respawn POI, no puke cops, and a HUD mod.
I use the next level below max zombies, is what system can handle on horde nights.
I use loot no respawn.
Zombie block damage 25% cause is flesh and bone
Me 100% block damage, cuz i got tools.
As of day 35 still use a bow and stone arrows. I do have a looted Q5 pipe SMG with about 300 rnds of looted ammo.
I dont quest. I do use the trader to get rid of stuff I dont need and buy drinks. (If I had a bucket to go get water, I wouldnt). I dont like it, but I have adapted. It does break my immersion when I go there.
I dont use the easiest hardness, just next level up.
I clean PoIs about 1 a game day.
I have not had to mine yet, I dont have dew collectors. I do have a pot. Havent made any of the crafting stations yet, except camp fire. Dont have bicycle. I am cleaning up a midsize town, although I have 2 cities neaby on a RWG 10k map. I have not built a base, I use one of the huge tanks in the town, and I do the hordes off an electronic power station pole.
I am not swimming in murky water, but I make it. As stated elsewhere before, I have gotten down 1% a couple of times.
I play vanilla + 3 mods, Zombie no respawn POI, no puke cops, and a HUD mod.
I use the next level below max zombies, is what system can handle on horde nights.
I use loot no respawn.
Zombie block damage 25% cause is flesh and bone
Me 100% block damage, cuz i got tools.
As of day 35 still use a bow and stone arrows. I do have a looted Q5 pipe SMG with about 300 rnds of looted ammo.
I dont quest. I do use the trader to get rid of stuff I dont need and buy drinks. (If I had a bucket to go get water, I wouldnt). I dont like it, but I have adapted. It does break my immersion when I go there.
I dont use the easiest hardness, just next level up.
I clean PoIs about 1 a game day.
I have not had to mine yet, I dont have dew collectors. I do have a pot. Havent made any of the crafting stations yet, except camp fire. Dont have bicycle. I am cleaning up a midsize town, although I have 2 cities neaby on a RWG 10k map. I have not built a base, I use one of the huge tanks in the town, and I do the hordes off an electronic power station pole.
I am not swimming in murky water, but I make it. As stated elsewhere before, I have gotten down 1% a couple of times.
So I use pretty much the same settings you do, but we play vastly different. By day 35 I am typically way ahead of where you are, I imagine you are not leveling very fast either.So, for comparison;
I play vanilla + 3 mods, Zombie no respawn POI, no puke cops, and a HUD mod.
I use the next level below max zombies, is what system can handle on horde nights.
I use loot no respawn.
Zombie block damage 25% cause is flesh and bone
Me 100% block damage, cuz i got tools.
As of day 35 still use a bow and stone arrows. I do have a looted Q5 pipe SMG with about 300 rnds of looted ammo.
I dont quest. I do use the trader to get rid of stuff I dont need and buy drinks. (If I had a bucket to go get water, I wouldnt). I dont like it, but I have adapted. It does break my immersion when I go there.
I dont use the easiest hardness, just next level up.
I clean PoIs about 1 a game day.
I have not had to mine yet, I dont have dew collectors. I do have a pot. Havent made any of the crafting stations yet, except camp fire. Dont have bicycle. I am cleaning up a midsize town, although I have 2 cities neaby on a RWG 10k map. I have not built a base, I use one of the huge tanks in the town, and I do the hordes off an electronic power station pole.
I am not swimming in murky water, but I make it. As stated elsewhere before, I have gotten down 1% a couple of times.
My big question for you and other people that don't quest. I mean seriously, WTAF do you people spend your time doing? If I didn't quest it wouldn't really affect my activity. If anything it makes life a little easier because I don't have to @%$# back and forth to the trader and worry about what time of day it is (I really should just use the all night mod...I mean that is another peeve, if someone wants to hide out in the trader all night, why do the Pimps care, it's not something I generally want to do either, certainly not in SP I've got a million better things to do with my time) so I could just do what I want when I want.
So I would just be clearing POIs as I came across them or wanted/needed a particular thing. Then of course I wouldn't have the quest rewards and we all know how rare it is to find good stuff in a POI, which means I'd be more dependent on crafting. Now using a headshot mod, does make it easier for me to get by with crap gear, because I can still 1 shot zeds with a pipe baton or stone arrows. It actually makes the performance of the spray and pray weapons anemic. I've also got the ability to craft QL6 eventually, so once again I am going to get top quality gear eventually 1 way or another. I've got some other little tweaks and of course the HUD mods but nothing major contentwise. Mining would still be an as needed activity. I don't hate it but I don't particularly love it. I get most of my clay/cobblestone/sand/stone from the palettes in POIs and the odd buried treasure. I tend to buy cement at the traders because I just find it annoying to tie up a forge for it.
Rotor
Well-known member
When you dont bike around, it takes a long time to walk 10 blocks
.Seriously, the biggest change with water for my playstyle is I cant run around. I have to walk. Without that bicycle, times is no longer a luxury.
I usually spend one day just hunting chickens and picking up stones because I dont want burn stamina mining rock. As of right now, I need about 300 arrows for a comfortable horde night.
I also play dead is dead, so I dont tend to just Rambo into places, so it takes longer.
Yes, I always level slow, day 34.
Forgot, 60 min days.
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Roland
Moderator
I get it that it is about realism but my point is that when we purchase a game and encounter its rules for the first time we tend to accept them as the way that game plays. I'm willing to bet that if you found this game today and purchased it and played it you would probably think that it was weird that water could not be gathered but you also probably would have quickly accepted it as a quirky limitation imposed by the developers-- especially if you felt that overall it was a fun game. The main source of fuel for the debate is the fact that it was one way and now it is another and people who experienced both and liked the original way care enough to bring it up.
Now, on the other hand, I'm willing to admit that if TFP changed it back to us being able to gather water from water sources probably few to none of the new players who have only known the A21 ruleset would complain about suddenly being able to gather water and getting empty jars back after drinking.
Kalen
New member
Ok, that's probably a fair statement. But in that hypothetical, I think my reaction would be along the lines of, "I can't collect water? This is stupid." That's generally not a reaction that bodes well for my long term interest in a game. But the reality is that this game did allow you to collect water at one point and removed it. That, in my opinion, makes it worse than never having been able to do it at all.
So yeah, if the argument is that my past familiarity with game is driving my dislike of the change... I guess it is. Not due to some sort of nostalgia for the "good ole days", but because I legitimately think its not a good change.
You act like it is mutually exclusive though. That they have to bring back the jar to make any changes.I get it that it is about realism but my point is that when we purchase a game and encounter its rules for the first time we tend to accept them as the way that game plays. I'm willing to bet that if you found this game today and purchased it and played it you would probably think that it was weird that water could not be gathered but you also probably would have quickly accepted it as a quirky limitation imposed by the developers-- especially if you felt that overall it was a fun game. The main source of fuel for the debate is the fact that it was one way and now it is another and people who experienced both and liked the original way care enough to bring it up.
Now, on the other hand, I'm willing to admit that if TFP changed it back to us being able to gather water from water sources probably few to none of the new players who have only known the A21 ruleset would complain about suddenly being able to gather water and getting empty jars back after drinking.
No one (well, maybe some people are...I'm not) is proposing anything that brings back the empty jar.
So we could scoop water with our hand and magically get a jar of murky water or use the bucket and then boil that (because murky water is not directly useable anymore except for drinking anyway right?), I honestly don't care. That doesn't change or invalidate anything else that has been done. Although I guess 2 outputs to give you back an empty bucket and water would be a heavier lift since it probably requires some new code.
Snow to water, once again, does not in any way shape or fashion require bringing back the empty jars. It could be facilitated with or without them. If they want to get fancy they can require the bucket be part of the process. I mean a bucket is almost as important in Minecraft as a pickaxe.
Yes, some people then are going to accept that just fine, others will scream about pulling magic jars out of their arse. Those are the kind of things I can hand wave away, like ok, you're a savvy save the planet type and you recycle fervently and carry around a bunch of empty plastic bottles. I mean they are @%$#ing everywhere in the real world today. They don't weight much, you can probably collapse them easy. Whatever you gotta do to sort your own head cannon right.
Not being able to gather water from the pond I am looking right at is really immersion breaking. Like I really didn't think about it THAT much until we started this discussion, but the more we talk about it, the more it irritates me.
Rotor
Well-known member
Anakin? Is that you bud?
Much power there is, in hand wavy.
Edit: But on serious note, I think my quote was "I dont give a rat ass about the jars" But it irks me that I have this pot or bucket and I cant go get water and boil it.
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warmer
Well-known member
Until you have a full stack of jars, I liked having empties. The second I had a full stack they became annoying.
Empty jars/food cans get annoying quickly when you are looting and that becomes an additional thing to manage.
Knowing I generate 3 water a day per dew collector while I can focus on anything else I might want to do is really satisfying. If you have 2 or 3 dew collectors per person, you never run out of water.
Jars and cans just become useless once you get past week 1 in my opinion. After week one they are more of a nuisance than a benefit.
Empty jars/food cans get annoying quickly when you are looting and that becomes an additional thing to manage.
Knowing I generate 3 water a day per dew collector while I can focus on anything else I might want to do is really satisfying. If you have 2 or 3 dew collectors per person, you never run out of water.
Jars and cans just become useless once you get past week 1 in my opinion. After week one they are more of a nuisance than a benefit.
Adam the Waster
Well-known member
You can hold 49 4x4sFirst, I will admit I didn't read all 7 pages of comments.
But, the whole 'realism' thing is thrown on so many fronts, I don't think it is that strange that they did away with the containers. Like, my guy can run around with 17 tons of concrete in his backpack...
Yes, I do see the OPs point, where did it go?? But, I think some of these stretches are here for the sake of gameplay overall. Like, now we don't need to haul around empty cans, jars, etc... we can just think of it as a one time use item. You get the water, you use it and it is freed from your inventory. Make more room for concrete anyways
Your broken limbs heal really quickly
A repusler that sends things flying
Able to melt down metal without a bellow
Using jars of water in soups but not getting a jar back
But drinking a jar of water and eatting the jar is unrealistic
Well maybe we all just throw the jars and shatter them like we're at a never-ending Jewish wedding and then have nothing to reuse.