PC Tool and Weapon Parts (and Repairs)

[Euzio]

I like the change in A21 where right now, scrapping any tool or weapon gives just the 1 part and that crafting different Tiers of those determine how many parts is needed. However, once we've crafted whatever we've wanted or needed, there isn't much use for those parts any more beyond just selling them or crafting a spare or something. 

To that extent, I was thinking how it could actually be tied in to repairs. Currently repairs in general cost just the 1 repair kit to repair anything fully (vehicles exempted). I was thinking that to perhaps correspond to the different tiers, a part can be used in conjunction with the repair kits. So for example, a Tier 1 pistol would take 1 handgun part and 1 repair kit to repair fully. To correspond, a Tier 6 pistol would then take 6 handgun parts and 6 repair kits to fully repair it (if we use 1 handgun part and 1 repair kit, it could make it usable, but only restore something like 1/6 its durability?). 

It would give an incentive to stockpile parts and also make them alot more valuable. Trade off naturally is that its going to make it more challenging in the early to mid game perhaps. Any thoughts? 

 

[Syphon583]

I've actually been thinking about this myself recently and would totally be onboard with requiring unique ingredients based on what it was you are trying to repair. I'm not sure about requiring the same amount of parts, though. At that point, it's really not that much more of an investment to just craft a brand new item. There are some players who mod the game to make it impossible to repair, but I think requiring additional parts is a nice middle ground.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I like the change in A21 where right now, scrapping any tool or weapon gives just the 1 part and that crafting different Tiers of those determine how many parts is needed. However, once we've crafted whatever we've wanted or needed, there isn't much use for those parts any more beyond just selling them or crafting a spare or something. 

To that extent, I was thinking how it could actually be tied in to repairs. Currently repairs in general cost just the 1 repair kit to repair anything fully (vehicles exempted). I was thinking that to perhaps correspond to the different tiers, a part can be used in conjunction with the repair kits. So for example, a Tier 1 pistol would take 1 handgun part and 1 repair kit to repair fully. To correspond, a Tier 6 pistol would then take 6 handgun parts and 6 repair kits to fully repair it (if we use 1 handgun part and 1 repair kit, it could make it usable, but only restore something like 1/6 its durability?). 

It would give an incentive to stockpile parts and also make them alot more valuable. Trade off naturally is that its going to make it more challenging in the early to mid game perhaps. Any thoughts? 

That would absolutly kill MP Coop. It would need a new loot system that scales with the people on the server or instanced loot wich would bring up a whole new balance problem. There is no way you can have enough machingun parts to even repair during one horde night in MP Coop. 5 people 64 zombies and at least 2 repairs per night/player. No way.

 

[Euzio]

That would absolutly kill MP Coop. It would need a new loot system that scales with the people on the server. There is no way you can have enough machingun parts to even repair during one horde night in MP Coop. 5 people 64 zombies. No way.

That's true. I'm pretty much a strictly SP player myself. If that's the case maybe just 1 machinegun part to repair everything instead of scaling to the tiers? Would prob be more balanced for MP if that's the case. In SP, players would still be swimming in parts, but at least there is a use for them at the late game. 

 

[BFT2020]

You can mod in new repair kit items with those parts so that you have to use that specific kit for that item (say a Pistol Repair Kit for hand guns and the SMG), but it would just repair by a set amount.  You would have to do a lot of c# coding to get it to scale based off of Quality level.

Resource kits currently have a repair amount of 32000 which is why it only takes one kit to repair everything.  You can adjust that value for kits to adjust how much it repairs (so increase the number of kits to fully repair vs light repairs).  Never tried that before so don't know it works or not.

There are some players who mod the game to make it impossible to repair, but I think requiring additional parts is a nice middle ground.

Probably talking about me there.  Personally I would like repairs requiring the workbench and taking time / resources to do (rather than a fairly instant repair in the field), but removing the ability to repair right now is the path of least resistance for my mod until I figure out / learn how to add that option (if I ever decide to try that is).

 

[Krougal]

That would absolutly kill MP Coop. It would need a new loot system that scales with the people on the server or instanced loot wich would bring up a whole new balance problem. There is no way you can have enough machingun parts to even repair during one horde night in MP Coop. 5 people 64 zombies and at least 2 repairs per night/player. No way.

OMG! Maybe not everyone in the group needs a machinegun. They could use like I dunno, different weapons.

I mean I appreciate your perspective, really I do, but you always make it sound like everyone should have everything, and right off the rip too.

Like dropping into a CSGO game or something.

You're right I don't play much MP 7D, but I've played a lot of Rust. Part of the fun is pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps when that 1 bow  is the difference between the group living or dying to get to the point where we all can carry an AK and a sniper and not care if we go out and lose them.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@KrougalOMG imagine people are trying to make a point with an example and imagine not wanting the game to change in every aspect anymore after nearly 10 years of playing it. Also this is not gonna happen anyways. Look how the game developed trough the last alphas. It got easier and easier. With all the first aid, gas to buy at the trader you now don´t even have to leave the forest anymore at all. This change would mean a step in the opposite direction.

 

[Euzio]

You can mod in new repair kit items with those parts so that you have to use that specific kit for that item (say a Pistol Repair Kit for hand guns and the SMG), but it would just repair by a set amount.  You would have to do a lot of c# coding to get it to scale based off of Quality level.

Resource kits currently have a repair amount of 32000 which is why it only takes one kit to repair everything.  You can adjust that value for kits to adjust how much it repairs (so increase the number of kits to fully repair vs light repairs).  Never tried that before so don't know it works or not.

Probably talking about me there.  Personally I would like repairs requiring the workbench and taking time / resources to do (rather than a fairly instant repair in the field), but removing the ability to repair right now is the path of least resistance for my mod until I figure out / learn how to add that option (if I ever decide to try that is).

I've tried some simple modding to see if I can get the items to repair needing both a repair kit and 1 additional item. But doesn't seem to be working well. You're right in that it would probably be easier to just create a new recipe like machine gun repair kit which requires a repair kit and machine gun part to craft. But part of the reason why I don't do that is because it would involve creating quite a number of different repair kits and I don't exactly want to be rolling with multiple different repair kits just to repair stuff if I'm using different items. But its definitely something I'd consider if I can't come up with the easier alternative. 

Adjusting the value of the kits is going to be tricky because tools and weapons come in differing durability levels. I don't think its possible to adjust the value to repair based on a percentage amount instead of a set amount. If they came with a set value for each item tier durability would probably be easier.

 

[FramFramson]

I think there's a broad sense that there's something not working but there's potential - using gun parts to repair guns would give meaning to weapon finds and make weapon durability matter more to add a little later-game pressure. Same for tools. Like there's clearly SOME kind of opportunity there. It screams for an elegant expansion of the gameplay SOMEHOW.

I've looked at mods that add variety to repair kits (gun specific & vehicle specific) and was on the cusp of adding some, until I realized one very important thing:

Any big expansion in repair kits will kill 7D's already overburdened inventory & fussy inventory management.

Yes, there's inventory expansion mods, but not everyone can be expected to mod those in, nor should they be. I would say that in planning a repair mod, you could increase the demands for repair kits to take up to 3 inventory slots, but past that you're going to drive players insane, and even then I wouldn't say more than two.

So what to do then if you can't carry around umpteen different repair kits? Well, I'm not sure, but one thing to think of is how we repair things IRL. At the most basic level you carry around two things: a Tool Kit and some number of Spare Parts. So... what if you simplified that to an item with a number of uses (perhaps using the Battery quality = charges system?) which could be recharged at the workbench?

To create the "toolkit" you would need a few things: A wrench, a Hammer, 3 each of forged iron or duct tape... and 5 Spare Parts. Maybe start it with 5-10 charges.

To recharge the item you need to add 1 each of duct tape, forged iron, and spare parts. One charge is one repair.

But what are "Spare parts?" Simple: an item made by braking down any one specific vanilla item component on the workbench. Have a steel tool part? Break it down to 1 Spare Part. Pistol parts? 1 Spare Part. Machine gun parts? You guessed it, 1 Spare Part.

You could make it even simpler by cutting the Toolkit idea entirely and simply making repair kits require 1 Duct Tape, 1 Forged Iron, & 1 Spare Part, but I do like the idea of having to actually put together a toolkit once and then just keeping it stocked with supplies.

If you're worried this is too restrictive, you could add the ability to make spare parts from 1 steel & 1 iron ingot on the workbench at engineering 4 or 5.

 

[binf_shinana]

パーツを必要とする個別の修理スタイルの実装、というのは武器パーツ出現時から比較的よく試みられてきましたが、どちらかというとこれが正しくする機能するために努力するべき箇所は、武器性能の均一化か状況に応じて有利不利が明確に打ち出せるほどの個性を出すことと、複数の武器を持ち歩かなければならなくなるほどのルートからの弾丸の出現数抑制です。
複数の武器を持つことで、修理用に複数の武器パーツを持ち歩く必要が出るようになります。それは必然的に単一の武器を所持するほうが良いという圧力になります。
現状では雑誌システムのせいで単一の武器カテゴリを成長させるほうが効率的になってしまっているため、その方向性をより強める結果となるでしょう。

Implementing individual repair styles that require parts has been attempted relatively often since the advent of weapon parts, but if anything, the area where we should strive to get this to work properly is to improve weapon performance. The idea is to make them uniform, or to make them unique enough to have clear advantages and disadvantages depending on the situation, and to suppress the number of bullets that appear from routes to the point where you have to carry multiple weapons.
Having multiple weapons means you will need to carry multiple weapon parts for repairs. That necessarily puts pressure on it being better to possess a single weapon.
Currently, the magazine system makes it more efficient to grow a single weapon category, so this will push us further in that direction.

 

[Krougal]

@KrougalOMG imagine people are trying to make a point with an example and imagine not wanting the game to change in every aspect anymore after nearly 10 years of playing it. Also this is not gonna happen anyways. Look how the game developed trough the last alphas. It got easier and easier. With all the first aid, gas to buy at the trader you now don´t even have to leave the forest anymore at all. This change would mean a step in the opposite direction.

I feel your pain, I really do. I mean I enjoyed this game a lot more back in the simpler times when this game was more like Minecraft in like A9 or 10 when you just got a club and a crossbow and you had a grand old time exploring the map randomly generated on the fly. Being scared at night and trying to sit there quietly and not draw attention to yourself. Good times! I know, the game will never feel like that again but it is what it is.

So anyway, maybe it's me, but maybe your examples don't really illustrate the point you are trying to get across, because when I read between the lines it mostly just sounds like "we don't want to put in the time to scavenge and craft, nor do we want to spend a lot of time looting" so I don't really know what your group would rather be doing. Running around with m60s and unlimited ammo spraying zeds? Not judging, I mean that's a good time in and of itself.

I get you about first aid and gas and not leaving the forest. I have a chest overflowing with meds and I've only made antibiotics (which I also never use). While I will fly up to the desert once or twice to get a ton of shale, the rest of the time I buy it. I do move into the snow for the higher loot stage but I don't bother with the desert or the wasteland if I can help it. No, I don't think these were good changes to the game either and you are 100% right about that.

 

[RipClaw]

To that extent, I was thinking how it could actually be tied in to repairs. Currently repairs in general cost just the 1 repair kit to repair anything fully (vehicles exempted). I was thinking that to perhaps correspond to the different tiers, a part can be used in conjunction with the repair kits. So for example, a Tier 1 pistol would take 1 handgun part and 1 repair kit to repair fully. To correspond, a Tier 6 pistol would then take 6 handgun parts and 6 repair kits to fully repair it (if we use 1 handgun part and 1 repair kit, it could make it usable, but only restore something like 1/6 its durability?). 

It would give an incentive to stockpile parts and also make them alot more valuable. Trade off naturally is that its going to make it more challenging in the early to mid game perhaps. Any thoughts? 

There was a mod for A20 called "Proper Repair Kits" that changed the game in this way. But the mod was not adapted for A21.







In Vanilla you will probably never see this change because the developers and especially MadMole seem to prefer a simple repair system.

JaWoodle is currently doing a series on Youtube with a "no repair" challenge. This is the extreme version. In this he can't repair or upgrade anything. He has to recraft everything over and over again. Usually after 2 weeks or so he adds a download link with the mod to the video description.

 

[Kalen]

I've said this before, but item degradation is my answer to making parts more valuable.   If it were up to me, every time you repaired an item there would be a chance it degrades in quality level.   The greater your crafting skill, the less the chance but it will never be non zero.   The result of this would be that eventually, you're going to want to recraft the item... keeping crafting relevant and giving you a reason to stockpile the resources to recraft an item.

 

[FramFramson]

There was a mod for A20 called "Proper Repair Kits" that changed the game in this way. But the mod was not adapted for A21.







In Vanilla you will probably never see this change because the developers and especially MadMole seem to prefer a simple repair system.

JaWoodle is currently doing a series on Youtube with a "no repair" challenge. This is the extreme version. In this he can't repair or upgrade anything. He has to recraft everything over and over again. Usually after 2 weeks or so he adds a download link with the mod to the video description.

Yeah, that's the mod I was about to use, before I realized how clunky a system it would be to carry all that stuff around. If there was a way to still somehow keep those kits to 1-2 inventory spaces, it would have a lot of potential.

I understand wanting a simple repair system, but it leaves a bunch of loose ends in the game which would be nicely tied together by a better repair system.

 

[Euzio]

There was a mod for A20 called "Proper Repair Kits" that changed the game in this way. But the mod was not adapted for A21.







In Vanilla you will probably never see this change because the developers and especially MadMole seem to prefer a simple repair system.

JaWoodle is currently doing a series on Youtube with a "no repair" challenge. This is the extreme version. In this he can't repair or upgrade anything. He has to recraft everything over and over again. Usually after 2 weeks or so he adds a download link with the mod to the video description.

I actually got the idea from watching JaWoodle's no repair challenge. I was thinking that a system which made the extra parts useful would be more beneficial than outright crafting from scratch. Part of the reason was because if no repair was allowed, Quality level 6 items would be kinda meh in that getting them would literally be a 1 time use thing. If we were able to craft them then that would be no issue but we're capped out at quality 5.  

I may check out that mod and see what needs to be changed for A21. I won't mind using it depending on how much of an overhaul it is. My current intention is to only ensure that extra parts are being utilized. 
 

Yeah, that's the mod I was about to use, before I realized how clunky a system it would be to carry all that stuff around. If there was a way to still somehow keep those kits to 1-2 inventory spaces, it would have a lot of potential.

I understand wanting a simple repair system, but it leaves a bunch of loose ends in the game which would be nicely tied together by a better repair system.

That was one of the concern I had since all the different repair kits would definitely be taxing on the inventory. Unfortunately, there might be no real way around it unless they simplified all the parts to just be reliant on something like "Weapon Parts" and "Tool Parts" to cover everything. Then we'd be able to limit it to 2 different repair kits to cover most items. But that would come at the cost of oversimplification and reduce the depth of the game. 

 

[FramFramson]

Even then you have Vehicle Parts, Miscellaneous Parts, etc.

I feel like you need some sort of battery-type item with repair "charges" or even something using the weapon code with "ammunition" but I have no idea if it's remotely possible to create an item in the game with multiple different "charges" or "ammunition" etc.

I suspect it's not possible.

I did have one other idea. Up above, I mentioned a "toolkit" - what if the "Toolkit" was actually a set of locked inventory slots which you could acquire through a recipe? Maybe even slightly separated from your main inventory? The slots would be keyed to hold the various repair kits or spare parts or whatever you want to call them.

 

[Krougal]

Even then you have Vehicle Parts, Miscellaneous Parts, etc.

I feel like you need some sort of battery-type item with repair "charges" or even something using the weapon code with "ammunition" but I have no idea if it's remotely possible to create an item in the game with multiple different "charges" or "ammunition" etc.

I suspect it's not possible.

I did have one other idea. Up above, I mentioned a "toolkit" - what if the "Toolkit" was actually a set of locked inventory slots which you could acquire through a recipe? Maybe even slightly separated from your main inventory? The slots would be keyed to hold the various repair kits or spare parts or whatever you want to call them.

Yeah, that is really what the problem becomes. We have enough @%$# to haul around as it is. I carry too much gear and I still don't carry things I would like for contingencies. Like most consumables.

So we'd need more slots or some way around it. It's just a lot of hassle.

I'm sure many of you remember when we had guns made of parts, and you combined parts to upgrade as well as repair them. It was a disaster. Granted part of it was wear was too fast and the degradation in performance was overbearing and while it may be realistic to a certain degree and in certain areas, overall it is not. More importantly, it certainly wasn't fun.

It was fun getting better parts to upgrade your weapon but the mod system that they replaced it with is far superior since it lets us actually customize our weapons.

 

[Ramethzer0]

I've said this before, but item degradation is my answer to making parts more valuable.   If it were up to me, every time you repaired an item there would be a chance it degrades in quality level.   The greater your crafting skill, the less the chance but it will never be non zero.   The result of this would be that eventually, you're going to want to recraft the item... keeping crafting relevant and giving you a reason to stockpile the resources to recraft an item.

I would love the immersion of removing the ability to repair on the fly.  I would recommend that change to be only done in a work bench or some other form of maintenance station.  Make it require a part or two depending on the tier of the item in question.  This would lead to the need to have multiple items in question.  But, to combat part scarcity, I'd likely want most parts to be craftable.

Imagine the horde night where your AK just $h&ts the bed and you don't have a spare!  I doubt anything like that would be added to the base game, but someone needs to poke a modder about something like that.

 

[Iceburg71]

It is on my todo list to upgrade for alpha 21.  I think it is stable enough to do now.

 

[Euzio]

It is on my todo list to upgrade for alpha 21.  I think it is stable enough to do now.

That would be pretty awesome. I'll definitely give your mod try since it does add to the immersion. Though I'll prob not look forward to the extra inventory management game.