PC What was the point of the water change?

zztong said:
Efficient or Inefficient, exploit or not an exploit -- all opinion, so I'll leave those alone. I don't care to have my play labeled as "exploitive" because I don't think I'm cheating. I'm just playing. But I get that you're not necessarily calling that an insult so much as a comparative to your own ideal game.
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 Yes, I was only referring to it as feeling like an exploit within my own sensibilities and not proclaiming your playstyle cheating. My only judgement/side eye for other people's playstyles are for those who repeatedly do things that lead to them not having fun. If the way someone plays is fun then it is right and good then I'm happy for them and I am perfectly willing to self-limit and enforce my own rules for myself rather than try to get the game to be changed in order to enforce the way I like to play. 

I know that sometimes changes occur that bungle up someone's play style and I understand why that leads to anger. When that happens to me (and it has happened) I simply adjust my own rules and objectives to get to the fun again.

Sometimes I wonder about folks who demand the balance be changed to prevent something if they've thought it through that such changes enforced would step on many many toes and just because they don't have will power to self-enforce rules if the game doesn't force it--that doesn't mean the devs aren't doing their jobs if they decide to leave things on the open-ended side of the spectrum or leave it to modders to enforce some different ruleset.

 
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BFT2020 said:
To put it nicely, we can tell that you don't use bows  😉

  • Stone arrows require rock, wood, and feathers
  • Iron arrows require iron heads, wood, and feathers
  • Steel arrows require steel heads and plastic
  • Flaming arrows require steel heads, plastics, gunpowder, cloth, and animal fat
  • Exploding arrows require steel heads, plastics, gunpowder, and duct tape


So the water production is for glue to make into duct tape.  And the reason they need so much is they are mass producing exploding arrows so they can spam them on horde night.

And that is why they (TFP) can't please everyone.  So the best they can do is set a goal or objective and make the game towards that objective.  If that doesn't work for the others, then mods come into play.
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Thanks for clarifying.  So, that would mean that duct tape for bow users is at least mid game and more a fun convenience than a necessity of a play style.  Though I suppose you could call what you do only on horde night a play style.  Either way, that reduces water needs in general.  You need them only for exploding arrows and not for any other types of arrows, so you're only using them (most people, anyhow) on horde night and not the rest of the time, so there isn't need for as much duct tape as I had thought.  That supports that water shouldn't be an issue in early game even more in the current state except for a new player.  As I said, I don't worry about efficiency for much of anything.  At least other than headshots and that's partly for the fun of dismemberment over actual damage increases, though that's also nice.

 
Riamus said:
But as far as getting clothing or armor, there isn't any change between a new player and how I play except potentially in how much they may choose or not choose to loot compared to me.  I don't loot in any unusual way.
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But what if they are actually crafting and the unusual way you do things is that you don't craft stuff when you have the opportunity? In a game that is called a something crafting something game.

Not sure why you have talked so much about looting when the real question is about "to craft or not to craft".

You said you simply wait for your armor to drop in loot however long that takes. What if they simply craft missing pieces when they have the time, i.e. at night ? With the potential advantage that they may survive a narrow fight without infection or death the next day. With the disadvantage that they might find exactly the same armor the next day. 

You know the saying "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" ? 😉

 
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meganoth said:
But what if they are actually crafting and the unusual way you do things is that you don't craft stuff when you have the opportunity? In a game that is called a something crafting something game.

Not sure why you have talked so much about looting when the real question is about "to craft or not to craft".

You said you simply wait for your armor to drop in loot however long that takes. What if they simply craft missing pieces when they have the time, i.e. at night ? With the potential advantage that they may survive a narrow fight without infection or death the next day. With the disadvantage that they might find exactly the same armor the next day. 

You know the saying "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" ? 😉
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Which is why I asked if you knew how much crafting is typical for players.  I know some really want to craft but I really think many players don't care whether they craft or loot so long as they get what they need.  If crafting a lot of stuff is being done by most people, then yes, you'll use more duct tape and need more water.  If it's only done when necessary and people are more likely to loot for stuff, then they'd need less water.  And if they don't ever craft beyond food and drink and perhaps certain things like ammo or building blocks or things you can't find or buy, then they need even less.  As I said, I don't know what actually is typical for the average player.  Where this falls greatly determines what amount of water is needed for a typical player.  For early game, most duct tape costs are going to be either pipe weapons or armor, right?  How many people craft those?  Do more people craft those or not?  I know that I've never had issues getting basic armor within the first 2-3 days and never craft that or clothing in any game I've played.  Maybe I haven't gotten every piece in that time, but close enough.  If you don't craft armor, that saves quite a lot of duct tape.  Pipe weapons might be more likely to be crafted, though they aren't really that difficult to find usually.  And even if you do craft one, that's a single cost unless you're upgrading it constantly by crafting every upgrade level.

I just don't see crafting being an issue for water scarcity in early game for most players.  Some, yes.  Most?  Probably not.  But again, I'm guessing and was hoping you might know.  In mid game or later, crafting needs a crazy amount of duct tape now, so you it does affect your water needs a lot if you plan to craft much of anything.

 
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Riamus said:
Which is why I asked if you knew how much crafting is typical for players.  I know some really want to craft but I really think many players don't care whether they craft or loot so long as they get what they need.  If crafting a lot of stuff is being done by most people, then yes, you'll use more duct tape and need more water.  If it's only done when necessary and people are more likely to loot for stuff, then they'd need less water.  And if they don't ever craft beyond food and drink and perhaps certain things like ammo or building blocks or things you can't find or buy, then they need even less.  As I said, I don't know what actually is typical for the average player.  Where this falls greatly determines what amount of water is needed for a typical player.  For early game, most duct tape costs are going to be either pipe weapons or armor, right?  How many people craft those?  Do more people craft those or not?  I know that I've never had issues getting basic armor within the first 2-3 days and never craft that or clothing in any game I've played.  Maybe I haven't gotten every piece in that time, but close enough.  If you don't craft armor, that saves quite a lot of duct tape.  Pipe weapons might be more likely to be crafted, though they aren't really that difficult to find usually.  And even if you do craft one, that's a single cost unless you're upgrading it constantly by crafting every upgrade level.

I just don't see crafting being an issue for water scarcity in early game for most players.  Some, yes.  Most?  Probably not.  But again, I'm guessing and was hoping you might know.  In mid game or later, crafting needs a crazy amount of duct tape now, so you it does affect your water needs a lot if you plan to craft much of anything.
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Lets go away from the details and sum up generally what we know now (or in other words state the obvious): There are some players who have no problems at all with water in early game and there are some players who have, some even so much that they make an account here to protest, and some having  just problems of deciding what to craft or make into drinks or postpone. In effect this is now a balancing issue.

Depending on where you loot and how much you loot you find some average of water jars per day (maybe a not so obvious point: the gas station POIs you so often get offered in the first days are often not a good place to find water). And depending on how much you craft and how much you expend stamina you have some average of water jars you need. And as we have seen both sides of the equation can be wildly different per player. Also those provide a lot of opportunities for adjustment here if TFP uses telemetry to find out what the average player does.

 
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@Roland Ok, maybe I was a bit cranky the other day, and you didn't deserve the personal attacks, but that aside:

I still stand by my point about magical jars from heaven; you don't start with them on day 1, so if the water struggle is only meant to be a short-term thing, then the jars are still irrelevant since it is going to take you a few days to accumulate them.

I'm also not calling for jars to be brought back, the other methods of getting water that I did mention don't really negate the "early water struggle" since you still need to boil water if you don't want dysentery and you still need to find a pot to do so. Better beverages are still worth making even if water is unlimited since carrying capacity is a thing and standing water might not always be convenient. I mean does water really need to be more a struggle than that? They could remove the helmet mod, which would mean even late game you at least need to still carry drinks and boil water.

 
Krougal said:
@Roland Ok, maybe I was a bit cranky the other day, and you didn't deserve the personal attacks, but that aside:

I still stand by my point about magical jars from heaven; you don't start with them on day 1, so if the water struggle is only meant to be a short-term thing, then the jars are still irrelevant since it is going to take you a few days to accumulate them.

I'm also not calling for jars to be brought back, the other methods of getting water that I did mention don't really negate the "early water struggle" since you still need to boil water if you don't want dysentery and you still need to find a pot to do so. Better beverages are still worth making even if water is unlimited since carrying capacity is a thing and standing water might not always be convenient. I mean does water really need to be more a struggle than that? They could remove the helmet mod, which would mean even late game you at least need to still carry drinks and boil water.
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No worries. I think there are a lot of good ideas that have been floated that restore the immersion of being able to gather water from water sources but still keep empty jars absent as items. I'm not opposed to tweaks to the current system. I'm also fine with the current system as it is and I'm perfectly okay with the fact that some people aren't going to like it. All of these ideas are great starters for new mods even if TFP decides not to change things.

 
One easy thing to change if immersion is important without much change to balance would be to remove the ability to drink from water directly. Lake water is simply toxic.

Because if I understand many of you correctly the discrepancy that stands out among all the other discrepancies that were always and will always be there is that you can drink lake water but not store it and drink it later for the same effect.

Balance would be affected by having no emergency source of drinking. But you could simply incorporate the damage done by drinking lake water into the debuff of being thirsty. I.e. when you are under 10% water you simply get the damage as if you drank one water from a lake. And this would be repeated in about the same time that one lake water drink would last you.

 
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meganoth said:
One easy thing to change if immersion is important without much change to balance would be to remove the ability to drink from water directly. Lake water is simply toxic.

Because if I understand many of you correctly the discrepancy that stands out among all the other discrepancies that were always and will always be there is that you can drink lake water but not store it and drink it later for the same effect.

Balance would be affected by having no emergency source of drinking. But you could simply incorporate the damage done by drinking lake water into the debuff of being thirsty. I.e. when you are under 10% water you simply get the damage as if you drank one water from a lake. And this would be repeated in about the same time that one lake water drink would last you.
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Drinking aside, it doesn't matter if the water were toxic. Other than for certain people who like to eat glue, the glue doesn't need to be made with potable water.

Dysentery is bad enough, I don't think the standing water needs anymore penalty than that. Considering how abundant murky water is from looting, I don't see why anyone would think it is unreasonable to have other options of getting it. We're still talking about giving murky water.

Even as it is, it's either something you only drink in emergencies or it's a reliable water source if you have a purifier.

The water purifier is still the white elephant in the room here. Oh, and the working and stocked vending machines that are EVERYWHERE.

 
First, I will admit I didn't read all 7 pages of comments.

But, the whole 'realism' thing is thrown on so many fronts, I don't think it is that strange that they did away with the containers. Like, my guy can run around with 17 tons of concrete in his backpack... 

Yes, I do see the OPs point, where did it go?? But, I think some of these stretches are here for the sake of gameplay overall. Like, now we don't need to haul around empty cans, jars, etc... we can just think of it as a one time use item. You get the water, you use it and it is freed from your inventory. Make more room for concrete anyways 😁

 
meganoth said:
One easy thing to change if immersion is important without much change to balance would be to remove the ability to drink from water directly. Lake water is simply toxic.
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In the pandemic, the traps for drainage pipes, sinks, and toilets in our University buildings dried up which let cockroaches into the buildings. That only took 6 months to happen.

If I were getting rid of anything, it would be making all the forms of water/drink in the loot extremely scarce, basically leaving only the rivers and lakes. Assuming the game is taking place more than 6 months after the fall of civilization, the water in plumbing would have evaporated or also become toxic. Survivors would have already picked over water stored in POIs. The only significant water remaining would be the natural sources. Collecting rain water and Dew would be possible though they're not potable sources, so you'd still have to boil them. Bacteria lives on the plastic that catches the water. Bird poop and other contaminates also find their way into rain water and dew collectors.

Toxic or not, folks would be drinking non-potable water out of desperation or they'd be filtering and purifying water with solar stills or something more advanced such as represented by the game's Chemistry Station.

In terms of game play, I like this too, as it creates a reason to go out into the wild and not be in POIs all the time.

 
The focus of the game is traders/quests/vending machines these days. TFP decided to take the easy way out when they shifted to these systems. It's much easier to create content when it all comes from the same place, traders. I feel betrayed by TFP, but that is just me.

 
I'm pretty sure looting toilets for water is more of a funny gag than an attempt to realistically mirror the evaporation state of water tanks after 6 months of inactivity.

I agree that murky water in loot is too high. It was originally lower before the release and I don't know whether someone panicked at the last minute about possible death spirals due to thirst and so upped it to make things more forgiving but it sure seems like the need to drink from ponds, rivers, and gutters was real and a dew collector was a must in the pre-release version and now they seem optional to just scavenging POIs for all you really need.

 
Krougal said:
Drinking aside, it doesn't matter if the water were toxic. Other than for certain people who like to eat glue, the glue doesn't need to be made with potable water.

Dysentery is bad enough, I don't think the standing water needs anymore penalty than that. Considering how abundant murky water is from looting, I don't see why anyone would think it is unreasonable to have other options of getting it. We're still talking about giving murky water.

Even as it is, it's either something you only drink in emergencies or it's a reliable water source if you have a purifier.

The water purifier is still the white elephant in the room here. Oh, and the working and stocked vending machines that are EVERYWHERE.
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So, would you agree that it is a balancing problem? I.e. too much water to find in loot, price of water in vending machines too low, money too easy to get?

 
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