PC Sleepers even worse now.

[Rotor]

If I ever get to one of these impossible PoI unless you min/max, I think I am just going to dig around it and fill it full of dynamite.

If I cant have it neither will the zombies .

 

[RipClaw]

So glock did a Tier 6 infestation at the jail and didn't die. I expect values will now be tweaked even harder.

I also saw the video and Glock left out some rooms that he cleared after the main room. But he ran out of ammo in the main room. Without the infestation crate, he probably would have died because he would have run out of ammo.

 I died twice in this POI. Yesterday I finally completed it using grenades and exploding crossbow bolts.
 

 

[seven]

I also saw the video and Glock left out some rooms that he cleared after the main room. But he ran out of ammo in the main room. Without the infestation crate, he probably would have died because he would have run out of ammo.

 I died twice in this POI. Yesterday I finally completed it using grenades and exploding crossbow bolts.
 

I've done the jail once and didn't die. It wasn't an infestation though, and I had a t5 smg and stacks of ammo. Also high agility and was jumping around like a crazy person. And just nomad difficulty.

 

[RipClaw]

Also high agility and was jumping around like a crazy person. And just nomad difficulty.

I play on warrior difficulty and I have a strength build. This agile playstyle with jumping around is not my thing. My problem was that I was constantly bleeding and therefore could hardly see anything.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Yeh, the practicality of that room isn't bad; just the implementation - in A20 that would've been worth a bug report, but with the new shenanigans, I don't think it's worth one now.

For rooms you have to drop into.. I'm not against that entirely. As long as the zeds are there whenever I can see them, and the rubble below me isn't magically steel so I can ladder it up if I want. It might be an obvious trap, but as long as it at least obeys physics ... or some such

That can´t be intended behaviour that zombies spawn in that late when you can clearly see their spawn point. That has to be a bug. @faatal?

There is no way that enemies spawning out of thin air is a intended game mechanic. This was a problem once already in A15, A14 i think, can´t remember exactly. It got fixed, so i can´t imagine that this is intended. That would be downright unfair and really bad game design.

@seven I have honestly no clue how i should do the county jail without explosives on warrior. I mount a ladder at the hole, at least cobblestone due to cop spit, jump down to activate and go instantly back up and flood them with grenades. I rather deal with 5 screamers than doing that fight inside.

 

[seven]

I play on warrior difficulty and I have a strength build. This agile playstyle with jumping around is not my thing. My problem was that I was constantly bleeding and therefore could hardly see anything.

Jumping around isn't my thing either unless I'm cornered. I do stealth, my idea of a successful mission is not firing a bullet, even T5. It's not possible anymore, or at least I'm not good enough to do it. I think I've played a few hours since I did the jail a few weeks ago. The new trigger volumes have taken the fun out of the game for me.

 

[theFlu]

That can´t be intended behaviour that zombies spawn in that late when you can clearly see their spawn point. That has to be a bug.

Well, for that specific POI it probably isn't intended. I'll pretend I just don't have access to Kage's log file for not reporting it as a bug..

My laziness might have something to do with the design of certain places doing worse things intentionally. Even if that room worked like that intentionally, it wouldn't be the worst offender for breaking physics; not even a contender...

 

[seven]

@seven I have honestly no clue how i should do the county jail without explosives on warrior. I mount a ladder at the hole, at least cobblestone due to cop spit, jump down to activate and go instantly back up and flood them with grenades. I rather deal with 5 screamers than doing that fight inside.

With an agility build I used the same general strategy that glock did. Run up the stairs, jump off, run up again, keep looping the zombies around killing as I went. It also helps that you can jump over their heads to get around them.

 

[theFlu]

I have honestly no clue how i should do the county jail without explosives on warrior.

I filmed doing it as a T5 Clear arcade style, link in the videos section.. just jumped into the final fight. Warrior diff as well.





EDIT: Or wait, "county jail" .. am I thinking of wrong POI? meh, after checking the footage, "Navezgane County Jail" is the proper name for it

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@theFlu  Errr, i am confused now. Need to check ingame wich is wich now. But i was talking about the one in your video.

Would have more chances if i don´t try this on level 45 aswell i guess . I have nothing in pain tolerance and only iron armor with like one plate mod.

 

[theFlu]

Errr, i am confused now.

Yeh, sorry, my confusion, my last post is an EDIT mess..

Would have more chances if i don´t try this on level 45 aswell i guess . I have nothing in pain tolerance and only iron armor with like one plate mod.

For that run I had 1 point in Fort, 1/3 LotL.. not that significant there

10/10 Per, 8/10 Agi, all possible gun goodies, full parkour, not much else. Tier reward gave a Military Armor Bonus set earlier, so basically BIS for armor though. I think it wouldn't change That much for just a full Agi, just carry an extra 600 9mm instead of the 300 7.62 ..

 

[Ray Garraty]

Yeah, take a look at the Navezgane Corrections POI for example, starting at 9:48:

When the player approaches the helipad from the outside, it's completely empty, no sign of zombies.

But as soon as he crosses an invisible line - the doorway - the large horde spawns in...

We used to talk a lot about players cheesing, but I guess here's the devs answer to it.. 

Now it's devs cheesing, which feels kinda sad...

 

[RipClaw]

Here is another nice example of how zombies spawn right in front of the player (4:40)

 

[Ray Garraty]

There's also a water pit at the bottom of missile launch silo in Red Mesa. When you walk right past it, it's empty. As soon as you enter the cave next to it, 5 soldiers spawn in it right behind you, out of thin air. I mean, WTF?

 

[ZehMatt]

This spawn system is quite horrible, it should have the zombies spawned but turned inactive so they don't think/tick/update for when the player is too far away, they can be marked active for when player gets closer or by other events such as noise. POI designers shouldn't have to worry about volumes that spawn zombies, just place the zombies and leave it to the engine to decide, its really not that hard to accomplish.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

10 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Here is another nice example of how zombies spawn right in front of the player (4:40)

Just watched it from the beginning and it´s even worse than at 4:48 makes it look like. He was right at the exact spot where that group spawned and nothing happened. I tested this, you can stand on the exact spot where they spawn and nothing happens.

That´s some next level spawn bug or mistake. If it isn´t a bug or msitake it´s next level BS tbh.

If you really need to be so cheap to spawn in zombies behind us, at least do it on a place that we can´t access and where we can´t see it. If there is zombies anywhere where we are, they must spawn in.

In case this is intended, i really don´t have high hopes for bandit AI if this is the level of cheapness they need to create a challenge.

 

[Euzio]

13 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Here is another nice example of how zombies spawn right in front of the player (4:40)

Just watched Tem's latest episode as well. And if that's how the new spawn mechanics work, its really just outright cheesing by whoever decided that would be a good mechanic to put in. How could you go through an area that is completely clear only for zombies to miraculously appear in that exact same spot you just passed just because you crossed some invisible line? Its utter BS. It doesn't reward players at all who take the effort to systematically clear sections because you will never know when zombies will start appearing from areas which you "think" you've already cleared. 

And if there are so many trigger spots that wake the zombies up no matter what, stealth is basically useless. As a player myself who enjoys stealth killing as much as possible, this is just sad to see. 

PS: Even for an infested clear, that amount of zombies spawning in the NCJ POI is nuts. 

 

[zztong]

Just watched Tem's latest episode as well. And if that's how the new spawn mechanics work, its really just outright cheesing by whoever decided that would be a good mechanic to put in. How could you go through an area that is completely clear only for zombies to miraculously appear in that exact same spot you just passed just because you crossed some invisible line? Its utter BS. It doesn't reward players at all who take the effort to systematically clear sections because you will never know when zombies will start appearing from areas which you "think" you've already cleared. 

I just watched it too.

I had been thinking I was late to the game on using Triggers and many of the special Zombie Volumes. They've been around for all of A20. A21 just added more types blocks that could initiate them. But this gives me pause.

On one hand, I see designers looking to create challenges and trying to be creative about it. The designer doesn't have anything like a patrolling zombie, so perhaps having zombies appear "off screen" behind you offers a way to simulate that. Alas, the open-world aspect of the game means the designer isn't truly able to "set a scene." A stack of standing zombies in a passive volume with pipe bombs at their feet isn't compelling play. And, as much as a designer can tell themselves there's a story to a POI such as "and then the zombie emerge from the air ducts" any visual clues placed in the area to prop up that story are moot if the player (1) doesn't see them, (2) can't possibly check the air ducts to discover the zombies, and (3) is going to feel "cheesed" when having taken suitable precautions they still had no chance to avoid the ambush.

In short, if a wandering horde stumbled into the POI, I'd freak and enjoy it, all thanks to random chance. If I cleared a room from top to bottom, leaving no stone unturned, and then open a door (or push a button) only to have the room I'm in, or the room before it that I just cleared, suddenly be filled with zombies, then I'm likely to feel ripped off.

I had been thinking that I might use Triggers to place zombies outside, and surrounding, a POI after a player got to the final loot. My thoughts were that those zombies might be far enough away from the player that the player wouldn't feel "cheesed" and that maybe a stealth player would be able to sneak long enough for the zombies to lose track of the player. But I had a lingering question... what if another player were passing by?

And if there are so many trigger spots that wake the zombies up no matter what, stealth is basically useless. As a player myself who enjoys stealth killing as much as possible, this is just sad to see. 

Yes. I'm happy to see you qualified the declaration. Triggers don't make Stealth useless, but when used in great numbers it devalues stealth.

I'd like to think this is still an early experimentation phase with regard to POI design. That we got some new toys and we're anxious to use them, but that the best use of them in terms of quantity and technique remains to be discovered.

 

[Laz Man]

I watched part of GNS's video on the county jail and can confirm his POI / map is somehow bugged.  My best guess is he had sleeper volumes from an old map or version of the POI and somehow they persisted into his map. (That POI received several improvement updates during experimental > stable) He was even getting double spawns in some cases which created quite the chaotic experience.

In comparison, Glock9's t6 infestation video on the jail was more accurate to the experience of that POI (despite him taking an alternate path to the final loot room).

 

[RipClaw]

I watched part of GNS's video on the county jail and can confirm his POI / map is somehow bugged.  My best guess is he had sleeper volumes from an old map or version of the POI and somehow they persisted into his map.

Interesting since his experience matches mine. And yes my save was carried over from experimental to stable.

This explains why some have had significantly fewer problems with this POI. I wanted to start over with the A21.1 stable anyway.

He was even getting double spawns in some cases which created quite the chaotic experience.

I always thought I was getting these double spawns because the game couldn't spawn all the zombies at once with my settings (32 zombies concurrently).

In comparison, Glock9's t6 infestation video on the jail was more accurate to the experience of that POI (despite him taking an alternate path to the final loot room).

That he used this alternative path saved his life. Otherwise, he would have run out of ammunition long before he reached the end room, and the extra first aid didn't hurt either.